IAF losing edge over PAF:Military Intelligence.

[my name is arya]

we need more numbers

we need lca mmrca and pak fa f35 for IN on time

fact is we need more numbers

 

[Black Widow]

Its interesting to see that you don't even consider F16 Bk15 a threat...and a BVR configured Mig21 (which your AF flys ) is a deadly machine...amazing!

Brother dogfights are not like computer games, where you press a BVR button and gets the victory...in most of the cases they end up in close air combat...don't live in dream, accept the reality.

Oh BTW soon after the TAI upgrade those Bk15 will be equivalent to Bk30...

No they are not... When compared to SMT and MKI they are not.... You better re-read my comment, I said F7pg (which PAF ioperates) will be deadly if coated with RAM, integrated with BVR weapon, It will be deadly.... Stop reading selectively

". The MiG-21 bison is a pretty neat airplane. It is based on the MiG-21 as many of you guys know from the Vietnam (War) era, but upgraded with an F-16 radar built by the Israelis in the nose, active radar missile, and they carry an Israeli jammer on it would practically make them invisible to our legacy radar in the F-15 and F-16." An American view...

"This is not the first time the MiG-21 Bison has been praised for successes during dissimilar air combat training (DACT) – even during previous USAF exercise and internal IAF exercises pilots are known to have scored ‘kills’ against more advanced adversaries. The small size (lower visual signature) and inherently small radar cross section coupled with modern avionics, radar, effective jammers, precision guided munitions and missiles (R-73, R-77) make Bison one of the best fighters in IAF after Su-30 and Mirage-2000. IAF’s has had good experience with small jets such as Gnat which earned the reputation of “Sabre Slayer” in the 1965 war with Pakistan. The under-development LCA Tejas promises to carry on this legacy when it replaces the Bison." .. An Indian View

 

[Roybot]

You know after reading this I realized how big a mistake it is to reply to your posts...........
ps: If you had cared to go through all the quotes you woud've found that they are not all american by any means......you know what give me a little time I have some books written by Israeli and Indian air force personnel. They have some interesting things to say about the PAF as well. Ill scan and upload them. But even that isnt going to help you admit anything would it?????

You don't get my point do you. Fair enough some people (not all Americans) have praised PAF and its training, but then again a lot of people have praised IAF too! But you don't see me going around quoting people to drum up some false sense of superiority! Can you say that pilots of PLAAF are no good because there aren't many "international" quotes praising them?

 

[krash]

That can be answered by PAF member... ... only 18 F16 are Block 52 standard.... rest are F16 A/B...
Specs of F16 A/B.... F16 A/B is no match ... so lets not discuss it...

It will be dangerous if Pakistan modify f7pg with bvr.. f7gp is copy of MiG21.. It is very potent machine.. Its Mach2.0 killer, It has small size, if it is coated with RAM, It will difficult to detect... F7pg with better radar and BVR is as good as F16 Block 30.... (I read it in some of the article..). There JFT is also good fighter, It is also comparable to F16 Block 30+...

JFT is better than F16 A/B but not better than F16 B52 (even Pakistani members had agree on it... )

Oh BTW soon after the TAI upgrade those Bk15 will be equivalent to Bk30...

Black Widow you have failed to take into account, as Najam khan has stated, the MLU program going on on our F-16s. This upgrade will bring our block 15s to the block 52 standard (not the block 30 standard), minus the cfts.

You don't get my point do you. Fair enough some people (not all Americans) have praised PAF and its training, but then again a lot of people have praised IAF too! But you don't see me going around quoting people to drum up some false sense of superiority! Can you say that pilots of PLAAF are no good because there aren't many "international" quotes praising them?

Yet again I believe you havent read the quotes. What I wanted you to read were the quotes regarding PAF vis-a-vis the IAF. That is the reason why I specifically wanted to scan those quotes by the Indian pilots for you. Also what you can do is find me quotes in regards to the IAF painting such praise as painted in the quotes for the PAF.

And as far as the 'false sense of superiority' is concerned dont worry our awareness of who and what we are and what we can and cannot do is quite strong. As is our belief in our ability.

 

[Silk]

BlackWidow:
If the block15 were no match then why were the Indians reducing border patrols when they were in the air during Kargil? There was a pretty clear report about how the IAF reacted during PAF CAPs which were either F7, Mirages or F16Block15... Anyway, we concluded that even with F7 the Indians had nu guts to cross the border for their punitive precision strikes... Now the cold war strategy is gone. Now PAF gets JF17, Block52 (new and 40+ upgrades), FC20 (have to wait and see), 2 different AWACS system, IFR IL78 and some very nice surprises in the next few months...

 

[SQ8]

Third world MiGs means, The MiGs operated by poor countries, who had no money to upgrade them, or who were in Embargo (Iraq/Bosnia/Serbia and so on). Due to which they couldn't upgrade their Migs... And they were facing USAF, most Advance AF in world...

Su27 Family: No matter how much you hate it, this is the best thing ASIA has... Su 27 Family with Awacs and good data bus (with better range missiles) ... A deadly combo... Just google for the number of TR module of MKI radar , you will come to know its potential...,...

The russian migs were worse off then.. sorry.. still better migs with the Iraqi's and serbs..
With Awacs.. even the Brazilian F-5M's are formidable.
We are talking about a single aircraft.. mano a mano..
and the F-16 has the kills to show for it.. calling them this or that..
I guess you just called the IDAF records pathetic then..

There is no "hating" the su-27 family..
but then there is no obsession with it either..
TR module's??.. data bus?
the data bus on the JF carries data at the same rate as the MKI.. is the JF now equal to the MKi??
The AESA upgrade planned for the B-1 was to have 4500TR modules.. is the B-1 radar better than the MKI.. for the job of the MKI??
Dude.. what are you talking about??..

Going around defending the MKI as if honor is at stake.. especially when the Machine deserves a lot of respect..
but overstating it.. is what i differ in..
Its a great plane.. one of the top 5 flying in world.. lets put it that way..
But not invincible.. and not without its Achilles heel(s).

 

[Silk]

You don't get my point do you. Fair enough some people (not all Americans) have praised PAF and its training, but then again a lot of people have praised IAF too! But you don't see me going around quoting people to drum up some false sense of superiority! Can you say that pilots of PLAAF are no good because there aren't many "international" quotes praising them?

Well, let us compare those "praising" by others...

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

"The MiG-21 bison is upgraded with an F-16 radar built by the Israelis in the nose"

Do not give such false Information!
The Bison does not have the ELTA 2032,The IN Harriers have them!
The reason is that the nose is too DAMN small to house an ELTA RADAR.
The Bison has Limited Beyond Visual Range capabilities due to the lack of a RADAR with sufficient range.
Also please go easy on the blue colour;I think it's considered as spamming and it's also an eyesore.

 

[Manticore]

black widow, u really skipped my post , did you?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/104620-iaf-losing-edge-over-paf-5.html#post1690308

 

[Black Widow]

BlackWidow:
If the block15 were no match then why were the Indians reducing border patrols when they were in the air during Kargil? There was a pretty clear report about how the IAF reacted during PAF CAPs which were either F7, Mirages or F16Block15... Anyway, we concluded that even with F7 the Indians had nu guts to cross the border for their punitive precision strikes... Now the cold war strategy is gone. Now PAF gets JF17, Block52 (new and 40+ upgrades), FC20 (have to wait and see), 2 different AWACS system, IFR IL78 and some very nice surprises in the next few months...

Lets live in present , lets see what we have now.. J20 , PAK-FA, J10 B and MMRCA are future...

India Intention was not to cross border(during Kargil war). Lets not bring kargil war, coz world know who suffer most. (After Kargil war, where India grew as economic power,No comment on pakistan status (go to wikipedia and see it))

 

[Black Widow]

black widow, u really skipped my post , did you?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/104620-iaf-losing-edge-over-paf-5.html#post1690308

Very optimistic one...
even If after 2 years you have 58 F16 B52++++ and 50 JF17... so total 108 4++ gen aircraft... rest of the thing you posted in not new, every one knows it.. F16 A/B was capable to fire AIM120 ..

RCS reduction of JFT is distant thing, you can't claim any thing now... No matter how many upgrade you do to JFT, it will not become stealth fighter (Most of Pakistani member have agreed on this point.)

250 JFT is highly inflated data... It will take minimum 7 years to make 250 fighter planes, thats too when you and china work simultaneously.. the time line will increase if you introduce MLU...

 

[fast]

you fanboys disgust me.

have u seen an MKI move? I went to aero india 2011. each time it does a stunt, it loses altitude.

trust me F16 can beat MKI in a dogfight any day

Exactly right. MKI is too heavy. It can't sustain altitude when turns. It would lose to more agile fighters in dogfight. F16 is a supra dog fighting machine.

 

[Roybot]

Yet again I believe you havent read the quotes. What I wanted you to read were the quotes regarding PAF vis-a-vis the IAF. That is the reason why I specifically wanted to scan those quotes by the Indian pilots for you. Also what you can do is find me quotes in regards to the IAF painting such praise as painted in the quotes for the PAF.

And as far as the 'false sense of superiority' is concerned dont worry our awareness of who and what we are and what we can and cannot do is quite strong. As is our belief in our ability.

Oh nah I read them quotes, PAF vs IAF quotes were from that American "defence representative" and th other one was some news article. Going back to the point I made earlier, I can see why the American would make favorable comments, and as for the news paper article there were a lot of claims and counter claims about who had an upper hand in 1965. I do not wish to get into that debate, lot of counter claims, "neutral" one at that, available on the internet.

And as far as quotes praising the IAF, you should realize that, IAF has only fought PAF, so not many war time accounts are available. Aur aap loogein se hamari tareef to honi hai nahin, since its probably against your doctrine to praise anything of your enemy. But there are still quotes around about the IAF, am sure some enthusiast will be able to help you out.

 

[Malik Usman]

Indian Military is just raising its funds by scaring the govt......nothing else...........as they are already creating mountains of weapons...that is increasing every year....this is another attempt to get the funds from Govt.

 

[fast]

@Su30MKI: test it... you will come to know why it is called F22 of Asia...

LOL. That's real comedy. Let's see the F22 qualities of Su30MKI. Stealth: MKI not, too big, huge RCS. Supercruising: MKI not. Supermaneuver: MKI not, too heavy, can't turn, lose altitude, lose energy with tvc. Advance radar: MKI no AESA. In fact MKI is just a big fat target in the sky. You can call it fat whale of Asia. Don't call it F22 of Asia.