IAF commits to 324 Tejas fighters, provided a good Mark-II jet is delivered

[Ultima Thule]

Your opinions on their aircraft vs yours have been discussed here and elsewhere. Pound for pound both aircraft are early demonstrators. I happen to believe theirs is superior when it comes to airframe/coating/EW suite and avionics because of western technology. I KNOW I KNOW you think they are trash, but as I said - both really at the current stage, are green. I would rather prefer they buy our F16, F18 or F35.

Here is one differentiator outside of specs. Their current commitment is far smaller than yours. Their aircraft, more importantly, IS NOT a frontline aircraft. Something in the frenzy of attacking them gets overlooked. There is a tactical hole in your Air force's inventory. You are going to go up against, with your JF17, their super Sukhoi 30's, Mig 29s and Rafael's. That kind of firepower is way way above a JF 17 capabilities, even in the presumed block 3 enhancements. I know you will disagree- Let's hope it not laden with too many personal digs and attacks on my flags and is focused on the discussion.

you 're reported for your trolling

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Sir @takeitwithyou is an "Indian" and false flagger pretending to be a American white

I know

 

[takeitwithyou]

Go back to my original post, I never mentioned JFs. I wanted to keep the discussion purely on Tejas and its perception within Indian services, until you mentioned JFs. Leave it out of discussion, it will becoming a d|ck measuring contest, which in itself is laughable that we will start comparing two platforms one of which is doing CAPs on international borders as we speak and other is still in "development" phase.


I will not let this sidetrack, and go back to my original post:



"Without going into constant news coming from India of how tejas keep on getting cold shoulder from Indian armed forces, its bit strange that Indian airforce, while keep on flying the junk Mig21s will raise the "bar" and "enhancement" for Tejas and not use it for securing Indian airspace. Mind you, Tejas programme is nearing three decades. Either Mig21 is better jet or Indian airforce is corrupt to the core"

Keep the discussion to above without bringing in JF into the discussion. The topic is about Tejas not JFs.


On the matter of your flags, I have never come across an "American" who is so sensitive when humiliations are thrown towards India. You are the first. Good to know you!

You want to talk sensitivity, try looking at a single topic opened up that does have a favorable text about the Chinese and then see drones of your guys become more Chinese than the Chinese themselves in defending and attacking. I make no bones about my Pro India stand (for the sole pro-American group here), especially when they get bullied.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You want to sensitivity, try looking a single topic opened up that does have a favorable text about the Chinese and then see drones of your guys become more Chinese than the chinese themslevs in defending and atatcking. I make no bones about my Pro India stand (for the sole pro-American group here), especially when they get bullied.

English please. I am struggling to make sense of what you wrote, apart from your liking of India, which is fair enough. I can live with that.

So Mr Tom, Dick, Harry, whatever you like to call yourself, sticking with Tejas, you see, my problem is as follows.

Tejas was suppose to replace the Mig21s of Indian airforce. three decades down the line, IAF is still flying that flying coffin. So what is the issue here? Why MK1 didn't replace the Mig21s? Surely, and I do mean it, Tejas MK1 on paper atleast is many times better then Mig21. Why Mig21s are not phased out and replaced with Tejas, albeit gradually?

Or maybe, perhaps, IAF found Tejas a lemon and prefer to stick with their flying coffin? There has to be a plausible explanation here. Surily, MK1 induction, operationalization and then upgrading them to Mk2 levels at later stage would have made sense.

 

[takeitwithyou]

English please. I am struggling to make sense of what you wrote, apart from your liking of India, which is fair enough. I can live with that.

So Mr Tom, Dick, Harry, whatever you like to call yourself, sticking with Tejas, you see, my problem is as follows.

Tejas was suppose to replace the Mig21s of Indian airforce. three decades down the line, IAF is still flying that flying coffin. So what is the issue here? Why MK1 didn't replace the Mig21s? Surely, and I do mean it, Tejas MK1 on paper atleast is many times better then Mig21. Why Mig21s are not phased out and replaced with Tejas, albeit gradually?

Or maybe, perhaps, IAF found Tejas a lemon and prefer to stick with their flying coffin? There has to be a plausible explanation here. Surily, MK1 induction, operationalization and then upgrading them to Mk2 levels at later stage would have made sense.

pardon me, I'm doing so on the go_ off my phone. I did correct my typos.

Aside from that, you seem to miss my position on this; your opinion about Tejas matters not to me. I have mine and you have yours. I've been ignoring those parts of your post.

I originally wrote to you because I felt you were emphasizing on the word "provided". How they are planning to roll it out is up to them, I don't care if they are slow walking it. Frankly, I prefer they buy ours with full TOT like the F 16 offer.

Also- to me - What was their original scope 30 years does not matter now. They've changed it obviously, and given how their program was severely held up due to sanctions, they had the luxury to change their scope. And it does not matter if you 'think' they found a lemon. In my experience, no lemon would be asked to be built in such large numbers. As I stated- MY Opinion- they are further advanced in some areas on the current version. Trying to convince me is moot

 

[surya kiran]

The PAF premier fighter is being pitted against the lowest tier fighter of the IAF and they are crooning about it. Next they will compare it to the armed Hawk. Hilarious. This forum is getting hilarious month after month.

This is like comparing the PN to the Indian Coast Guard and saying how great the PN is.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

pardon me, I'm doing so on the go_ off my phone. I did correct my typos.

Aside from that, you seem to miss my position on this; your opinion about Tejas matters not to me. I have mine and you have yours. I've been ignoring those parts of your post.

I originally wrote to you because I felt you were emphasizing on the word "provided". How they are planning to roll it out is up to them, I don't care if they are slow walking it. Frankly, I prefer they buy ours with full TOT like the F 16 offer.

Also- to me - What was their original scope 30 years does not matter now. They've changed it obviously, and given how their program was severely held up due to sanctions, they had the luxury to change their scope. And it does not matter if you 'think' they found a lemon. In my experience, no lemon would be asked to be built in such large numbers. As I stated- MY Opinion- they are further advanced in some areas on the current version. Trying to convince me is moot

Whatever I have said and my emphasis on word "provided" , all is related. You just don't want to understand. The word "provided" comes with a criteria, that "if" it meets the requirement, then IAF will inducted it. I don't care about your personal liking or views, that is irrelevant and off topic. We are discussing Tejas here not F16 or JFs. So after three decades, we haven't come out of "ifs" and "buts" phase of a project, then the world would take it as Lemon, Indians and their well wishers can think otherwise.

 

[takeitwithyou]

Whatever I have said and my emphasis on word "provided" , all is related. You just don't want to understand. The word "provided" comes with a criteria, that "if" it meets the requirement, then IAF will inducted it. I don't care about your personal liking or views, that is irrelevant and off topic. We are discussing Tejas here not F16 or JFs. So after three decades, we haven't come out of "ifs" and "buts" phase of a project, then the world would take it as Lemon, Indians and their well wishers can think otherwise.

Yes "provided" is a criterion and I did not say otherwise. I simply said it is not some "ah-ha moment" like you made it out be in red text, because every airforce, including yours, would put purchase criteria on newer versions. When speaking of Tejas you cannot put JF17 out of the conversation. That aircraft is being built to take on India's western border/defense posture related specific needs. But we are clear where we both stand.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Yes "provided" is a criterion and I did not say otherwise. I simply said it is not some "ah-ha moment" like you made it out be in red text, because every airforce, including yours, would put purchase criteria on newer versions. When speaking of Tejas you cannot put JF17 out of the conversation. That aircraft is being built to take on India's western border/defense posture related specific needs. But we are clear where we both stand.

Ofcourse its a "light bulb" moment, when an airforce, cannot say for sure , even after developing MK1, albeit in very small number that it will commit to Mk2, "provided" it is good enough. Which also suggest the MK1 was a Lemon and its failure to replace Mig21s.

 

[takeitwithyou]

Ofcourse its a "light bulb" moment, when an airforce, cannot say for sure , even after developing MK1, albeit in very small number that it will commit to Mk2, "provided" it is good enough. Which also suggest the MK1 was a Lemon and its failure to replace Mig21s.

Right. So your airforce is most brilliant if guaranteeing block 3 version purchase without adding "provided" block three has the enhancements we need/want.

Based on that one word you deduct it is a lemon.

 

[Trisonics]

For a minute let's forget the fighter in question and move our attention to the foundations. The fighter is a product of this evolving eco system and it's with great pride India can claim a platform for aircraft generation is in house now because of the Tejas program.

It's important to clearly differentiate between the program and the product, something that our press has failed time and again. Not to mention, users of this forum also. Users of course are either misinformed or have no information since their own country fails to match what India has done with it's program. To reiterate the importance of a program lets take a few examples -
IAF need a trainer. Done! in-house not in another country.
Study of lower landing speeds, more lift, for the navy variant - Done! Levicons suggested. Simulated, built, tested and integrated all in India. Not in another country.
New requirements for mark-2?: Current study on Canards (done previously) being studied. Again in-house!

I remember reading several IEEE papers and other journals on LCA. Indian scientists shared facts on performance, pitfalls on everything from their choice of wings to creation of new software.

The Platform is in place!

• Facilities to test strength of materials and product. Fabrication.
• Successful Flight trials with indigenously designed and qualified Composite Drop Tanks
• Flight flutter tests for Operational Clean and Heavy Stores Flight Envelope expansion
• Onboard Engine Condition Monitoring System provides real time Engine Status in the Cockpit and Logs the Engine Usage Data to Compute Life Usage Indices of Life limited Parts. It also tracks Vibration Monitoring System

General Systems

• Major Mechanical System includes Microprocessor Controlled Brake Management System, Environment Control System, Fuel System, Nose Wheel Steering System, Landing Gear System, Hydraulic System, Secondary Power System, Life Support System, Escape System.
• Major LRUs Developed by ADA are Aircraft Mounted Accessories Gear Box, Filters, Up Locks, QDCs, NRV’s, Depressurisation Cock, Gimble joints, Ten different types of Heat Exchangers. All LRUs have been productionised to facilitate Equipping of Series Production.

Integrated Flight Control System

• IRON BIRD LIGHTNING TEST FACILITY ENGINEERING IN LOOP SIMULATOR 14
• State-of-the-art Full Authority Quadruplex Digital Fly-By-wire Flight Control System
• Fault Tolerant Digital Flight Control Computer with built-in Redundancy Management
• Fail Operational, Fail Operational, Fail Safe DFCS and Fail Operational, Fail Safe Air Data System
• Robust Control Laws for Stability and Command Augmentation, Carefree Manoeuvring, Autopilot Control and Ski Jump Functionalities
• Advanced Flight Control Actuators incorporating both Hydraulic and Electrical Redundancy
• Range of Ground Based Test Facilities for Integrated Flight Control System Development, Handling Qualities Evaluation, Non-Real Time Tests, Real Time Simulation, Hardware-in-loop Simulation, Structural Coupling Tests, Lightning Test, Ground Check out Systems and Flight Test
• Test Facilities equipped with State-of-the-art Flight Dynamic Simulator, Engineering Test Station, Air Data Test Station, High End Projection Systems, Data Acquisition,Analysis and Storage System

Simulator

FLIGHT TESTING

I can go on but hopefully, I made my point. It's imperative India continues to support this infrastructure. The process and product will only continue to improve.

 

[BATMAN]

It wants the next 201 Tejas Mark-II jets to be “entirely new fighters” with much better avionics and radars

Are they getting help from some Pakistani traitors? Just like they got in case of centrifuges?

 

[jetray]

For a minute let's forget the fighter in question and move our attention to the foundations. The fighter is a product of this evolving eco system and it's with great pride India can claim a platform for aircraft generation is in house now because of the Tejas program.

It's important to clearly differentiate between the program and the product, something that our press has failed time and again. Not to mention, users of this forum also. Users of course are either misinformed or have no information since their own country fails to match what India has done with it's program. To reiterate the importance of a program lets take a few examples -
IAF need a trainer. Done! in-house not in another country.
Study of lower landing speeds, more lift, for the navy variant - Done! Levicons suggested. Simulated, built, tested and integrated all in India. Not in another country.
New requirements for mark-2?: Current study on Canards (done previously) being studied. Again in-house!

I remember reading several IEEE papers and other journals on LCA. Indian scientists shared facts on performance, pitfalls on everything from their choice of wings to creation of new software.

The Platform is in place!

• Facilities to test strength of materials and product. Fabrication.
• Successful Flight trials with indigenously designed and qualified Composite Drop Tanks
• Flight flutter tests for Operational Clean and Heavy Stores Flight Envelope expansion
• Onboard Engine Condition Monitoring System provides real time Engine Status in the Cockpit and Logs the Engine Usage Data to Compute Life Usage Indices of Life limited Parts. It also tracks Vibration Monitoring System

General Systems

• Major Mechanical System includes Microprocessor Controlled Brake Management System, Environment Control System, Fuel System, Nose Wheel Steering System, Landing Gear System, Hydraulic System, Secondary Power System, Life Support System, Escape System.
• Major LRUs Developed by ADA are Aircraft Mounted Accessories Gear Box, Filters, Up Locks, QDCs, NRV’s, Depressurisation Cock, Gimble joints, Ten different types of Heat Exchangers. All LRUs have been productionised to facilitate Equipping of Series Production.

Integrated Flight Control System

• IRON BIRD LIGHTNING TEST FACILITY ENGINEERING IN LOOP SIMULATOR 14
• State-of-the-art Full Authority Quadruplex Digital Fly-By-wire Flight Control System
• Fault Tolerant Digital Flight Control Computer with built-in Redundancy Management
• Fail Operational, Fail Operational, Fail Safe DFCS and Fail Operational, Fail Safe Air Data System
• Robust Control Laws for Stability and Command Augmentation, Carefree Manoeuvring, Autopilot Control and Ski Jump Functionalities
• Advanced Flight Control Actuators incorporating both Hydraulic and Electrical Redundancy
• Range of Ground Based Test Facilities for Integrated Flight Control System Development, Handling Qualities Evaluation, Non-Real Time Tests, Real Time Simulation, Hardware-in-loop Simulation, Structural Coupling Tests, Lightning Test, Ground Check out Systems and Flight Test
• Test Facilities equipped with State-of-the-art Flight Dynamic Simulator, Engineering Test Station, Air Data Test Station, High End Projection Systems, Data Acquisition,Analysis and Storage System

Simulator

FLIGHT TESTING

I can go on but hopefully, I made my point. It's imperative India continues to support this infrastructure. The process and product will only continue to improve.

LCA is very important to building our ecosystem for aircraft manufacturing. Most of the ppl cannot digest the fact of India building a aircraft on its own. Neither f16 nor typhoon was built in a day it is a continuous process.

LCA is a point defense fighter which will be replacing aging migs, combined with surface based missiles it can very well defend the country. Strike fighters like Sukhoi & Rafael will take care of enemy at the borders or deep strike missions.

 

[Robinhood Pandey]

Sp8 on maiden flight

Hardly matters . . there is a stealth truck-trailer in the picture carrying this tejas.

your bias will not let you see it however

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi,

That is-----200 miles combat radius--- @GURU DUTT ---eh ki hoya---+ 3 ton weapons carrying capacity.

And I am here cursing the Paf for their 600-750 miles combat radius + 4.5 tons weapons carrying capacity for their JF17's---.


So---the 201 " new fighters " could basically be the F16 or the Grippen---.

Now that tells you---how obsolete the design and the frame of the Teja is---regardless of what has been done to the EW package---.

You know that I have never ever criticized Teja technically---other than a couple of times that I have made a joke or so---.

But the truth to the matter is---time is the enemy of any and every project---. A product needs to be completed or rejected in a certain minimum time frame--otherwise---the end product is never a viable product---.

No---don't get me on " we have learnt a lot from it mantra "---because all that has been learnt from it is----. I won't say---because I don't want you to correct your mistake.

mere Sarkaar @MastanKhan saheb

you are more knowledgeble to know that combat radious of your super duper fighter is really 500-700 miles khair sanu ki

now the depth of pakistani airspace in any circumstances is not more than 180 miles and coupled with most BVRs or stand off smart weapons / glide bombs / small diametere bombs or laser guided bombs this kind of range is more than adequate when its a POINT DEFNCE FIGHTER with a secondary role of SEAD & DEAD and percission bombing and not a Frontline MRCA like F-16 or Rafale or Mig29 Fulkrum

whats more it can very easily due to its very compact size & body (45% body wieght in carbon composites ) and and 99% skin made of carbon composites & and advanced DIGITAL 4 Channel FBW and Mayavee EW+ECM & RWR its highly radar radiations cheating (even when mayawvee ins wutched off its RCS is 1/3rd that of Mirage 2000 in clean configuration)

noew then it has HOBS (DASH3 HDMS&HUD + PYTHON5 combo)& EL-M2032MMR with DERBY & I DERBY ER BVR combo Same as that on F16 SUFA and LITENING 3 G3 LDP compatiability

so @MastanKhan saheb so called avrage combat radius & 3.5 tonne weapons load is no issue when enemy strateguck depth is not that much and you are ysing very smart and light munations... Got It

What will make a good mark 2 jet

For Strating The LCA Mark 2 is now designated as LCA MK1A

1. it has a new low and wider but very light made from titanium landingear assy.

2. the over all wieght of the fighter is reduced by almost 550Kgs

3. the whole internal wirring harnessing & avionics is changed and a new light and non mesy type is bieng made with technical inputs fro irsrael

4. there is a New Three way LINK system is made based of US based GPC Russians GLONASS and india IRNSS

5. a New(israeli made) GaN Aesa bases RWR+EW+ECM& internal jammer suite is made a LA-Spectra type which will work in Tandendem with Indian LRDE made GaA UTTAM AESA Radar (with 700 TERMs)

6. last but not the least a new improoved aur induction machenism and better aero dynamic body wuth upto 25% lesser drag and better stealth capabilities

7. OBOGS & non-retracting refuling probe