I am proud of the Kargil operation: Musharraf

[blain2]

AGPL or Actual Ground Position Line as the name suggests is a line demarcating Indian and Pakistani troop position.The troops, who moved into the areas after 1984.Hence their no question AGPL being demarcated in previous treaties.

The Siachen region was not demarcated in 1972 agreement, as it was then considered insignificant, an areas incapable human habitation,back then it served very little strategic purpose to either army.

I have been involved in this mess for quite a few years so I know the details around the entire AGPL story. Simplistically, the AGPL formula is being used to extend a status similar to the LoC across the glacier. As I have mentioned before, the LoC and the AGPL are all open to interpretation and as such violable (both sides have violated the LoC and even the positions on the glacier were being adjusted up until 2003) as the sanctity of Shimla agreement has been breached hundreds of times by now. Lets also be clear that Shimla agreement does not equate the LoC to IB in any way regardless of this being wishful thinking on the Indian side.

 

[blain2]

I am trying to write this with a straight face. "Izzat-O-Iqbal" is not just connected to wearing an uniform. It is connected to being a soldier and being acknowledged as such all through the soldier's life as well as after his death. I hope you would know that. All your blarney about matryrs etc etc just evaporates when the Commander of the PA was niggardly in acknowledging his men as his men. To this day, Musharraf has not even acknowledged the correct number of casualties that his Army under his command suffered. "Izzat-O-Iqbal" hunh......
The then Dy DG ISPR who has written a book on Kargil has estimated that about 1000 dead bodies are still not accounted for while the IA buried about 240 unclaimed bodies. So are all of them acknowledged or even remembered?

Please don't write as if we don't know how to honour our own troops. We are not going to give you what you are dying to find out. What do you know about the PA aside from making motivated statements about the honour of our troops when the real intention is obviously to dig up something other than that?
There is no need for us to parade the names of our troops who made the ultimate sacrifice. Their names and the battle honours for each of the units involved are proudly displayed inside our messes and they have not been forgotten! Bodies not recovered does not mean we do not care. At Siachen, countless men and officers have been lost but they too are remembered and honoured fondly. Those who served at Kargil are no different.

Its comical for me to see you lecture me about "izzat-o-iqbal".

We will conduct operations and where secrecy is needed, we will maintain it. We have done that in the past many times and we will continue to do so in the future. Those who serve in such missions are remembered by their units, their families are taken care of and we have a deep appreciation for their sacrifices. Those who died are proudly remembered by their families and while it may sound odd to you, go to any of the families and they will proudly tell you that their son laid down his life for Pakistan. There is no doubt there just because the conflict happens to be Kargil. Perhaps some in the Pakistani liberal media will go off on this tangent about the worth of the enterprise, but that is a minority and none of them has actually served or even knows those who have served during the Kargil conflict.

So don't bother worrying about us not acknowledging and remembering our people. We are just fine the way we remember them. We don't need your understanding of izzat-o-iqbal to help remind us about our troops. Each unit knew of the troops inducted. Those who were missing in action were accounted for so this point about "1000 troops not being accounted for" is a misleading statement in the first place. I would even question the "240 unclaimed bodies" claim as anything that came from the Indian side during that time was laced with attempts to generate as much propaganda against Pakistan as possible. The flag meetings were taking place, so why were the bodies not returned to Pakistan? So silly stories make for good propaganda, but not facts.

Please do tell me the name of the author and the book that you are referencing to the Director, ISPR.

 

[blain2]

He was a lucky prisoner. The others weren't as lucky.

Saurabh Kalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Also look up Chamel Singh, if one tortured prisoner is not enough.

Outright propaganda. We have handled thousands of India PoWs in the past wars and this has never been the case before, why now? We can very easily suggest the same with regards to the treatment of our troops. But the point is, without a neutral verification of the claims, its all propaganda.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Outright propaganda. We have handled thousands of India PoWs in the past wars and this has never been the case before, why now? We can very easily suggest the same with regards to the treatment of our troops. But the point is, without a neutral verification of the claims, its all propaganda.

Even if we assume that the Indian side is grossly exagerrating them, you couldn't possibly believe that they falsified a post-mortem?

 

[ashok321]

He is proud? On what account?
He was the one on the outset of this war who said, "it is not us, it is not Pakistan, it is mujahideens".

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

I have no dog in this, but Musharaf was a man among men, Pakistan with him was far better than those days. It's true that Kargil operation failed due to political reasons but he had the guts to do it, and it was indeed a military success, and without international pressure, India would had got much more loss and casualties. Pakistan is in need of him.

 

[W.11]

if we elect such people like nawaz shareef who are completely low IQ naive dumb stupid people then allah hafiz to pakistan, i cant believe how pakistanis made such a low IQed idiot nawaz as PM 2 times

 

[toxic_pus]

I have been involved in this mess for quite a few years so I know the details around the entire AGPL story. Simplistically, the AGPL formula is being used to extend a status similar to the LoC across the glacier. As I have mentioned before, the LoC and the AGPL are all open to interpretation and as such violable (both sides have violated the LoC and even the positions on the glacier were being adjusted up until 2003) as the sanctity of Shimla agreement has been breached hundreds of times by now. Lets also be clear that Shimla agreement does not equate the LoC to IB in any way regardless of this being wishful thinking on the Indian side.

All ground positions along LoC till NJ 9842 are marked and agreed upon by two sides. Therefore there is no scope for interpretation and is inviolable, to the extent that a bilateral agreement is inviolable.

As much as you wish it isn't, LoC (till NJ 9842) is, for all intent and purpose, IB. The difference is in the nomenclature.

 

[OrionHunter]

I have no dog in this, but Musharaf was a man among men, Pakistan with him was far better than those days. It's true that Kargil operation failed due to political reasons but he had the guts to do it, and it was indeed a military success, and without international pressure, India would had got much more loss and casualties. Pakistan is in need of him.

You are way off the mark seeing that you've succumbed hook line and sinker for Mush's propaganda.

The bare fact is that the operation was a MILITARY DISASTER where Pakistan was concerned. Ask General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani (Ex 10 Corps Cdr), ask Gen Shahid Aziz, General Ziauddin Butt DG ISI and others. In 2012, Musharraf's senior officer and retired Major General Abdul Majeed Malik maintained that Kargil was a "total disaster" and gave bitter criticism to General Musharraf. Pointing out to the fact that Pakistan was in no position to fight India in that area; it was the Nawaz Sharif government that initiated the diplomatic process by involving the US President Bill Clinton and got Pakistan out of the difficult scenario.

General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani had even said that the Pakistani troops had to withdraw because "Pakistan Army ka izzat ka sawal tha"!!

After the logistics base at Muntho Dalo was destroyed by the IAF, Pakistani troops supplies completely dried up and they were on the verge of starvation. Nothing to drink, nothing to eat! And soldiers can't fight on an empty stomach!

And yet Mush claims that Kargil was a Pakistani victory? He's out of his mind and known to lie through his teeth. And there are people like you who fall for his false propaganda about winning a lost war!

I would like to see you fight from 'sangars' (not pill boxes) without much overhead protection in minus 30 degrees temperature without food and water with 300 rounds of Bofors hitting you every minute, most of it air bursts. Then we'll talk as to whether Pakistan won the war or not!!

 

[Zarvan]

I am proud of those who fought in Kargil operation even though this operation was disastrously planned by this jerk Musharraf who didn't even bother to told it to Navy and Air Force due to which we lost so many lives this man should be hanged for this

 

[third eye]

I have no dog in this, but Musharaf was a man among men, Pakistan with him was far better than those days. It's true that Kargil operation failed due to political reasons but he had the guts to do it, and it was indeed a military success, and without international pressure, India would had got much more loss and casualties. Pakistan is in need of him.

Which part of this ham handed op was felt to have been a success ?

Military operations are not judged by their intent but by their results. Even by intent, it is the height of stupidity for Pak Generals not to expect a complete and systematic retaliation each time they touch the LC or IB.

Ayub did this in 65 when Bhutto convinced him that the war would remain localised to J&K - India attacked Lahore & he pulled back from Akhnoor.

Half a century another Guderian produced by the PMA felt the same with similar results.

Good luck !!

 

[Rank]

Idiot proud on his idiot harkatain!

 

[Amolthebest]

 

[surya kiran]

I have been involved in this mess for quite a few years so I know the details around the entire AGPL story. Simplistically, the AGPL formula is being used to extend a status similar to the LoC across the glacier. As I have mentioned before, the LoC and the AGPL are all open to interpretation and as such violable (both sides have violated the LoC and even the positions on the glacier were being adjusted up until 2003) as the sanctity of Shimla agreement has been breached hundreds of times by now. Lets also be clear that Shimla agreement does not equate the LoC to IB in any way regardless of this being wishful thinking on the Indian side.

This is a document your PM signed and please read the wordings

"In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line."

 

[surya kiran]

Which part of this ham handed op was felt to have been a success ?

Military operations are not judged by their intent but by their results. Even by intent, it is the height of stupidity for Pak Generals not to expect a complete and systematic retaliation each time they touch the LC or IB.

Ayub did this in 65 when Bhutto convinced him that the war would remain localised to J&K - India attacked Lahore & he pulled back from Akhnoor.

Half a century another Guderian produced by the PMA felt the same with similar results.

Good luck !!

Bhaiyaji, only one simple question needs to be asked to which not one answer has been received/

1. What was the objective of the kargil operation?
2. Was that objective achieved?

Cheers!