I am proud of the Kargil operation: Musharraf

[Armstrong]

Who is this 'we'..does this include Pakistani armed forces?
If so, then 'we ' knew all along that those fighting in Kargil, are Pakistan's own soldiers and not any Mujaheddin.

Infact 'we' also knew since the planning stages of the operation itself, that once declared as Mujaheddin.. Pakistan will not able to overtly support them or come to their rescue
Which proved to be very true ..as IAF started bombing Pakistani positions, all PAF could do is wiggle its thumbs.

'We' also knew that Pakistan army could never launch a diversionary attack to relive pressure of 'Mujaheddin' positions...Such was the state of logistics that many Pakistani army soldiers were surviving by eating grass.

Even after being met with such treatment, you do not see a sense of abandonment in the Soldiers then you are not looking deep enough.

Who said it was for 'You' ? It was to sustain a narrative in the International Media !

And don't talk to me about a sense of abandonment when you've never really met a Kargil veteran from the Pakistani side !

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Yes professional armies do this all the time. Covert warfare is absolutely acceptable. Izzat-o-Iqbal comes by way of the troops showing dedication in carrying out the command and their duties which our troops performed exceptionally well. This is what their units are proud of and these shuhadaa of the units are celebrated along with those who have fallen in past wars.

I am trying to write this with a straight face. "Izzat-O-Iqbal" is not just connected to wearing an uniform. It is connected to being a soldier and being acknowledged as such all through the soldier's life as well as after his death. I hope you would know that. All your blarney about matryrs etc etc just evaporates when the Commander of the PA was niggardly in acknowledging his men as his men. To this day, Musharraf has not even acknowledged the correct number of casualties that his Army under his command suffered. "Izzat-O-Iqbal" hunh......
The then Dy DG ISPR who has written a book on Kargil has estimated that about 1000 dead bodies are still not accounted for while the IA buried about 240 unclaimed bodies. So are all of them acknowledged or even remembered?

 

[janon]

And don't talk to me about a sense of abandonment when you've never really met a Kargil veteran from the Pakistani side !

Unfortunate choice of words there. It seems like you are saying that those fellows are the ones who truly know what abandonment means.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

So .. so ... so ... why keep changing the topics? Save your so so.. for your breakfast.

you showed some pictures, than i reminded you to show the picture of your fallen migs too!

We are not crazy like you that misbehave with prisoner... he was handed back in one piece!

He was a lucky prisoner. The others weren't as lucky.

Saurabh Kalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The postmortem revealed that the Pakistan army had tortured their prisoners by burning their bodies with cigarettes, piercing ear-drums with hot rods, puncturing eyes before removing them, breaking most of the teeth and bones, fractures of the skull, cutting the lips, chipping of nose, chopping off limbs and private organs of these soldiers besides inflicting all sorts of physical and mental tortures and finally shooting them dead, as evidenced by the bullet wound to the temple. The postmortem report also confirmed that injuries were inflicted ante-mortem (before death)[9][3][10][11][1]

Also look up Chamel Singh, if one tortured prisoner is not enough.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

The entire US foray into Afghanistan was lead by massive numbers of US SF out of uniform to blend in and disrupt the Taliban.

I made the point about SF myself in an earlier post. It's a page or so back.

But what is 'massive numbers'? I doubt if they were regiments operating together?

This whole point is comical. What rule did Pakistan break to have our troops dress in whatever made sense from an operational secrecy standpoint?.....

That's a stunning statement. We're not talking about operational secrecy, we're talking of rules of warfare by civilized armies (given that all warfare is barbaric and uncivilized). Some things are 'not done'; these historic rules may be broken sometimes but that does not make it right. Like torture of military personnel. I am sure all armies have done it, but that does not make it right.

Just like torture, whole units wearing civilian clothes while fighting wars is very close to terrorism, if not terrorism.

 

[janon]

After 13 pages, can we all agree that nobody has yet explained why this is a matter of pride for mushy?

Victories are a matter of pride, defeat is a matter of shame. It can't get any simpler than that.

If this is what he regards as a matter of pride, I wish all future Pakistani generals lots of proud moments in their lives.

Look guys...this was a war he started, at a time, place and manner of his choosing, when the Indian side was arranging bus schedules to Lahore. And yet, despite all the advantage of surprise on his side, despite the fact that he chose every little detail, despite all that, Kashmir remains India's, Kargil remains India's, none of his aims were accomplished. (Except in the minds of some delusional people who think that point 5353 or whatever was the crowning objective).

If this is the sort of result that Pakistani militarymen take pride in, well then, as I said, more power to them, may they have lots more such "victories" in future as well.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Dude, you're opinion sounds more like an impulsive urge to assert something than an objective assertion per se ! What does the numerical strength (large or small) has to do with it ? Its the nature that counts.

And why is it wrong or unbecoming for an Army Unit to do that ? Is it wrong because 'soldiers' shouldn't be doing this sort of thing ? Why ? Are Intelligence Operatives scum of the earth that they're expected to do such work & its ever so unbecoming for a soldier to do it ? What is this logic ?

And it goes without saying that we didn't really have a peace-time pre '03 (I think when the ceasefire was signed); we just didn't have significant operations....just the usual cross firing & bombardments !

You do not get it. You're opining that just because one soldier in SF can go in mufti under certain conditions, everything goes. No, it does not.

The logic used is that traditional armies hold themselves (or should hold themselves) to a certain standard based on clear norms.

 

[Armstrong]

Unfortunate choice of words there. It seems like you are saying that those fellows are the ones who truly know what abandonment means.

No, simply a case of reading what one wants to read !

 

[jabalultariq]

I dont like his guts - how can he committ to take lives of our brave offices and jawans for his un-planned adventurism , attacking India , for heavens sake we cannot fight a sustained war for more than 2 weeks !!!

 

[Contrarian]

Don't dump it all on poor Nehru. IA gave him an appreciation of the situation and then went in. Not too different from Kargil in terms of how the actual dynamics of the conflict panned out.

Quite wrong. Nehru promoted his own men to the top positions of the Army.
Those Army men themselves did not appraise Nehru to follow this policy.

When the Chinese started attacking, Nehru did not ask the Military for its opinion - he gave a firm standing - 'throw them out'.

It was absolute wrong analysis of the situation done by Nehru, our force planning and most of all what the Chinese would do. It was not the IA that gave its opinion as a body to Nehru based on which he acted, it was the exact opposite. He just said what he wanted without thinking whether it was feasible or not.

 

[MilSpec]

Siachen and Kargil sit across the very same LoC. Lets not create any confusion about that. Kargil was with Pakistan in 48 and in 65. It was taken over in 1971 by the IA and not returned so lets not talk about firmly this or that.

If Kargil operation violated Shimla agreement, so did Siachen. No changing of contours of the LOC through force applied in 1984 just as it did in 1999. You folks broke the rule first!

No clear definition on siachen exists in Shimla agreement, Whereas clear definition on LOC of kargil existed existed in shimla agreement. Your army lost kargil in 71 and ratified it on the treaty! so it's your government's problem not ours.

The 1972 Simla Agreement did not clearly mention who controlled the glacier, merely stating that from the NJ9842 location the boundary would proceed "hence north to the glaciers."

btw North means north straiaght up not "east" as understood by pakistani estb

 

[Contrarian]

Retard get this through your head, Kargil is controlled mostly by Pakistan as of today, only a few peaks are occupied by Indian army, all the critical ones including highest point is held by Pakistani army. Your Indian version of history says "all Pak intruders were evicted" that is far from the reality.

Try to understand instead of posting same idiotic lies over and over again about Pakistan losing in Kargil, when the reality is Pakistan won key positions in Kargil.

Afraid that someone has grossly misled you. Pakistan has 1 peak under its control, there are 2 other peaks whose authencity is not cleared whether it was even occupied by IA or not.

For all the operation, the costs involved monetary as well as lives of the soldiers as well as the goal of cutting across India's logistics line to Siachen and finally getting Siachen, Pakistan managed to get 1-3 peaks out of the hundred plus that it occupied initially.

If that sounds like victory to you, then may god bless your country many many such victories in the future!

 

[surya kiran]

LoC is not IB. Its quite simple. Your action in Siachen was not considered an open war because it took place across the LoC and not the IB. So if you are sitting anywhere around the LoC, its undecided business.

Seriously? Now you are saying the LoC can be crossed? Just accept that kargil was different cause it was crossing of LoC, wheras for Siachen, India went and occupied what it believed was its territory and that too due to different viewpoints on how the LoC proceeds.

In the case of Kargil, there was no differing on viewpoint on where the LoC was. Crossing the LoC is an act of war. Do you understand the difference? Which is why nobody not even your own ally china said anything. You got caught red handed and got pushed right back. Do you want me to show you Pakistani analysts talking about Kargil?

And you still have not answered my question. What was the objective of Kargil and was that objective achieved?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Your generals and brigadiers would disagree.

Inevitably there will be those who agree and those who disagree and at that level it is within their right

 

[danger007]

@blain2 .. worth reading.... super answers to the baseless propaganda of Indians and their Pakistani versions.

because those versions didn't make you feel better and didn't satisfy your ego? huh.... Kargil is big a defeat for PA... from the beginning to now your lies keep coming out... hahaha next statement will be kargil is Pakistan victory?


just compare pakistan status before and after kargil....