I am proud of the Kargil operation: Musharraf

[my2cents]

If Pakistan was willing to cover up Kasab's Nationality why would they let International Media to come to Kasab's Village ? Surely taking his family out in a matter of hours to some undisclosed location be the more prudent thing to do ?

No we just ask for 'evidence' instead of 'conjectures' & 'opinions' & we've never shied away from Impartial International Arbitration - I suggest you take us to the International Court of Justice or some other similarly relevant & impartial platform with all the evidence you've got about us 'lying & lying till it isn't sustainable anymore' !

Facts come out in due time .......you cannot forever hide behind them. Remember Abbottabad??

 

[foxbat]

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.....because it didn't succeed.

Stop Lying.. Don't you know Pakistan still has peak 5353 and an Indian general said that India did not consolidate its gains in the kargil war.. That's victory enough for Pakistan

I don't disagree with Musharraf that it should have been tried - but I would be proud if it had achieved something meaningful.

I am sure that the families of your soldiers whose bodies were not accepted by Pakistan to carry on the ruse perpetrated by Musharraf disagree with you..

 

[Not Sure]

I don't disagree with Musharraf that it should have been tried - but I would be proud if it had achieved something meaningful.

How could it be achieved when not even the PAF chief knew about it? It's said it was a four-man play.

It was not a calculated risk... heck, not even a risk, it was stupidity - at the 'insignificant' cost of foot soldiers. But of course you are a Pakistani and you shall respect your leaders, so you won't find such statement coming from an Indian palatable.

So let us put it this way - It was entirely Musharraf's plan. Did he die in that war? Lose a limb? Even a nail? Not even grace. Actually he is gaining more of it at your expense.

Of course he is proud, he knows how to move the people at the time of elections.

I actually think he did great as president, but should that achievement exonerate him from this fiasco?

 

[notsuperstitious]

No they probably wanted him back because of the way the Kasab thing was handled by India ! We probably didn't want another one-sided interrogation, media frenzy, execution & then pressurizing Pakistan to do something about it by giving them a dossier than doesn't stand in court !

Pakistan wanted an Indian terrorist wanted for attacks in India for all that? Dude there's a new level of denial you have fallen to. Such lack of honesty is startling in young people.

And Indian dossier is based on evidence available in India, as the whole planning, training, logistics, control and live guidance happaned in Pakistan, to ask India for court proof is just nothing but more denial.

 

[Contrarian]

I don't know why everyone sees the Kargil war as a disaster rather than anything else? The Kargil war was our response to Siachen invasion by India. Furthermore if the casualties are compared then Pakistan suffered much less in proportion to the previous wars with India. The only thing was that PM had not been taken into confidence and that is where all the issue stems from.

Kargil cannot be a response to Siachen because when Siachen was taken, it was virgin territory. No side had occupied it before and the Shimla agreement did not demarcate it clearly.

Whereas in Kargil, the LoC was breached and Indian bunkers were occupied. The LoC has been very clearly defined here by the Shimla agreement.

I hope you see the vast differences.

Moreover it was done when there was peace and Indian PM had traveled to Pakistan for peace staking his political credibility on the peace process. Pakistani Army chose this moment to attack.

Lastly, it is because of this that today India is not vacating Siachen. The argument is that regardless of anything the Pakistani political leaders and government says that Siachen needs to be demilitarized, it will never be respected by Pakistani Army, as soon as IA vacates, PA will climb up. As you know, it is India sitting on the heights in Siachen and Pakistan is nowhere even close.

 

[ice_man]

Kargil cannot be a response to Siachen because when Siachen was taken, it was virgin territory. No side had occupied it before and the Shimla agreement did not demarcate it clearly.

Whereas in Kargil, the LoC was breached and Indian bunkers were occupied. The LoC has been very clearly defined here by the Shimla agreement.

I hope you see the vast differences.

Moreover it was done when there was peace and Indian PM had traveled to Pakistan for peace staking his political credibility on the peace process. Pakistani Army chose this moment to attack.

Lastly, it is because of this that today India is not vacating Siachen. The argument is that regardless of anything the Pakistani political leaders and government says that Siachen needs to be demilitarized, it will never be respected by Pakistani Army, as soon as IA vacates, PA will climb up. As you know, it is India sitting on the heights in Siachen and Pakistan is nowhere even close.

LoC is NOT THE BORDER! it is not recognised as the actual border it is disputed area. occupied by india claimed by kashmiris! so yes there is similarity with siachen & sir creek! it is disputed territory. hence the kargil thing didn't escalate into an all our war across the border. and remained confined into LoC area only.

crossing LoC is not taken as crossing the international border. india wants the LoC to be recognised as the actual border however, pakistan opposes it stating that kashmir is disputed territory.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan wanted an Indian terrorist wanted for attacks in India for all that? Dude there's a new level of denial you have fallen to. Such lack of honesty is startling in young people.

And Indian dossier is based on evidence available in India, as the whole planning, training, logistics, control and live guidance happaned in Pakistan, to ask India for court proof is just nothing but more denial.

Not at all. Planning was done in Italy, UAE as well as in india itself. The job couldn't have happened without support from inside. Seems your authorities even turned a blind eye to it so that they could milk off the episode

By the way, the ISI (led by Lt Gen Pasha at the time) even alerted the Mossad about possible militant attacks on Jewish centers in Mumbai at one point. Why would the ISI have done that if its the evil spooks that prevents you mugs from sleeping at night?

Rather than accept the failure of your security you pin all the blame on us. Guess what buddy we have our fair share of allegations against you; and there've been plenty of acts of terrorism by indian nationals or indian "state actors" against Pakistan. I don't even need to name people or groups or individuals

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pakistan army really is the most blessed organization in the world. Even a stinging defeat, a complete fiasco will be termed as a victory by the people who pay them and suffer due to their actions. Even if a general takes his soldiers on a stupid, brainless campaign that achieves nothing, wastes billions of dollars, and makes thousands of children orphans, there will be star-eyed worshippers like @Windjammer or @Abu Zolfiqar who will sing his praise. After all they ate grass on point 5353. That's a big accomplishment, isn't?

So what if thousands of men died or returned limbless? Eating grass on 5353 trumps all that. So what if thousands of children lost their fathers? A few people ate grass on 5353! So what, if they didn't capture an inch of enemy territory, let alone Kashmir, which was their original intention? They crapped on 5353! So what, if the nation became poorer, and a laughing stock after yet another military disaster? They ate grass on 5353! So what, if hundreds of soldiers were disowned by musharaff, and given a funeral by Indians? Mushy crapped on 5353! So what, if the country became the laughing stock of the world for biting off more than it could chew? Two or three men peed on 5353!

After all, point 5353 is the Venice of the east, the crown jewel of the world, the shimmering diadem of the subcontinent, isn't it? So totally worth the limbs and lives of thousands of stupid soldiers and NLI guys. Right?

Not sure what psychological complexes ail you. I hope you get better

And I hope you come visit Pakistan and enjoy our hospitality. We will take you on a tour to PAF museum and other displays where your captured tanks and Air Force planes are on permanent exhibit to the public


p.s. the NLI was an irregular second line force which formally became part of the regular army AFTER Kargil war

You also conveniently overlook the fact that Kashmiri freedom fighters were also involved.

Gains were made, but Nawaz Sharif sold out his country when he capitulated to Bill Clinton's White House

 

[ice_man]

Pakistan wanted an Indian terrorist wanted for attacks in India for all that? Dude there's a new level of denial you have fallen to. Such lack of honesty is startling in young people.

And Indian dossier is based on evidence available in India, as the whole planning, training, logistics, control and live guidance happaned in Pakistan, to ask India for court proof is just nothing but more denial.

well when binladen was caught in abbotabad area people said clearly army couldn't overlook this could they? well guess what this story of men climbing into a boat crossing over into indian territory and landing on mumbai! when daily indian catch pakistani fishermen crossing over.

its total bull and just a drama done by india to get some attention. indian intelligence either failed misreably or were in bed with them.

and as for dossiers well india made them india believed them they were not overlooked by a third party who could have validated their claims! hence times of india and indian dossier to us are on the same level of nonsense!

 

[ice_man]

double post!

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Military success? Wow... In what way... ending the war with capturing one single peak which is shorter than the peaks in Indian control?

Every country in the world suffer very badly in war.... But it doesn't matter how much one suffered, what matters is who achieved the objective... India did it!

If Mush considers it as proud... they why was Pakistan lying that it was NOT regular Pakistani Armed forces!

a little education can help.
watch what yr own media has to say.

Not convinced we won Kargil Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV - YouTube

 

[Hellraiser007]

Siachen and Kargil sit across the very same LoC. Lets not create any confusion about that. Kargil was with Pakistan in 48 and in 65. It was taken over in 1971 by the IA and not returned so lets not talk about firmly this or that.

If Kargil operation violated Shimla agreement, so did Siachen. No changing of contours of the LOC through force applied in 1984 just as it did in 1999. You folks broke the rule first!

Kargil was never under the control of PA, you are misquoting here

Army to celebrate Kargil liberation from Pak raiders in 1948, IBN Live News

Not true. Please read up. The Chinese identified the Indian ingress and then took action. It was not an immediate force on force conflict. Your side went in, took up positions, the Chinese eventually responded and pushed your troops out.

No it is reverse, They came and gained territory and then they thought IAF and the IA personnel are regrouping and also thought that it is very difficult to maintain the supply lines and went back from where they came from.

There is no parallel between Kargil and 1962, the earlier one is a misadventure.

1962 is an open fight nobody denied that IA was not fighting.

 

[Bang Galore]

a little education can help.
watch what yr own media has to say.

Not convinced we won Kargil Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV - YouTube

Would help even more if you bothered educating yourself before offering it yours.

Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts
Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts - Economic Times


Any wonder why this man spouted angry rubbish?...and why no one takes him seriously?

 

[janon]

Not sure what psychological complexes ail you. I hope you get better

And I hope you come visit Pakistan and enjoy our hospitality. We will take you on a tour to PAF museum and other displays where your captured tanks and Air Force planes are on permanent exhibit to the public I'm not sure what this has got to do with my post. Are you trying to find solace by saying that you captured Indian tanks in a previous war? What has it to do with kargil? Well we too have lots of Pakistani tanks in our museums, heck we have an entire village named PATTON NAGAR because Pakistani patton tanks (the pride of their armor at the time) are strewn all over the place. Google that place name and look for images. Anyway, all this has nothing to do with the topic, and your bragging about a few captured tanks in museums is a pathetic attempt to divert the topic.


p.s. the NLI was an irregular second line force which formally became part of the regular army AFTER Kargil war So? I know that. And it wasn't just the NLI that was involved, armymen were seconded to NLI units for this purpose. SSG was also used. Oh an by the way Pervez Musharaff, who is the topic of this thread, wasn't in the NLI at the time, right? Tell me, was he in the NLI, or was he in the army? Stop pretending that it was just some irregulars, and if the army was involved it would have been different, when the thread is about the army chief himself.

You also conveniently overlook the fact that Kashmiri freedom fighters were also involved. Again, how does it make any difference to my point? My point in the post you responded to was that Pakistanis are the only people who will look at a stinging defeat with pride.

Gains were made, but Nawaz Sharif sold out his country when he capitulated to Bill Clinton's White HouseHe ran to the USA BECAUSE he saw what was coming. The gains made were evaporating, IA was recapturing peak after peak back from your forces, and he wanted to stop things before everything went to pieces. If he had not gone there, you think the result would have been any different? You think your military was in any position to stop the Indian counter assault? You really want to believe that your NLImen who were getting pounded by Bofors and mirages while they sat helplessly on desolate peaks could have done anything, whether Nawaz went to USA or not? Stop deluding yourself. Pakistan could not have achieved anything, could not have held on to any "gains".

Responses in red.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Would help even more if you bothered educating yourself before offering it yours.

Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts
Armed forces tribunal indicts Lt Gen for fake Kargil battle accounts - Economic Times


Any wonder why this man spouted angry rubbish?...and why no one takes him seriously?

LOL so u tell me why it is always a make up story from indian side then from ours??
U can run but u cant hide kid.
He is the general not a NCO or lower rank person from enemy side saying this!!!
I guess we will believe him more then u.