How the situation in Pakistan has affected our psyche?

[haviZsultan]

All mosques should be controlled by the state and the moulvis will be government servants.

I agreed with this part. We could setup an institute to regulate the mullahs that eventually end up being preachers and develop a process or schooling for them which is government run and controlled. Also shut down wahabi and deobandi seminaries.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

................

The message of optimism. My cynical words sap into that but then I still hope and believe in Pakistan, so perhaps there is optimism in me too.

I understand your point, but please detail what are the grounds upon which you base your message of optimism, just like you detailed the causes of your cynicism above.

 

[muse]

I learned from it is that the state sovereignty can't be compromised, force other than the state's mustn't be allowed. No matter how gloomy the picture of imposing states law by force could look but it's definitely not worse than jeopardizing the whole nation. I am not aware of the complexities and details, but heard the rebels are too many, strong vicious fighters, infiltrate from/to the unstable Afghanistan, living in rugged terrain, have sympathizers everywhere. If the force is not possible, the least state can do is to develop those areas, educate it's people, employ it's young people as this will give them sth to live for. Suicide bombers are desperate to the point to believe they will get heaven for killing a couple of people, they actually would believe in this if they have nothing to live for, and do anything to end their miserable life.

I have a story to share, I studied in Southern Jordan, in Maan city which is a tribal city and the least developed, where the state of law is relatively loose. It's people are the least educated among Jordanians, they used to ignore state law, commit crimes and prevent police from tracking culprits, exceed the speed on streets, belittle police using and trading drugs...etc, however, the state tried to deal with them softly until 2002 Islamic fundamentalists crossed the line by attacking police stations and state institutions, declaring Jordanian regime as Kaffir, and killed the US ambassador. At this point, state of war was declared in the city, and the army attacked them, after few days of fighting, they were all arrested, killed or gave up, however, their leader still in jail, and about 30-50 were killed. People of the city distanced themselves from both parties although they sympathized with the rebels, but they were overwhelmed by the power state used and electricity and water was cut off. After two years a university was opened there, and developments started in all sectors. Some people expected that there would be much more deaths and longer fight, but it turn to be much easier.

As I witnessed it by my eyes in four years of my study there, people of the city were considerably changed as they got influenced by the open minded and educated students coming from other far more developed cities.

A powerful post, I hope more Pakistanis can read this post - however, there is a difference between the situation in Pakistan and Jordan - whereas in Jordan the Army and Armed Forces were determined servants of the state, in Pakistan the situation of all three segments of the armed forces is very complex, particularly after the so called "Islamization" -- Whereas Jordan for the Armed Forces it was Jordan that is important, in Pakistan, it cannot be said that Pakistan is important for the Armed Forces, rather it is "political Islam" that is important -- this is the sad reality, after all, you don't really think that Talib are able to have success after success, or that Pakistani armed forces regularly surrender to the Talib and are beheaded, without the support from within the armed forces, do you?

What can be done? Obviously, the orientation of the armed forces has to be changed, but if you try that, the Islamists will threaten all out civil war - the choice before Pakistan is to die slowly or die fast -- But there is another choice, make the hard decision, to defeat the Islamist and to survive and prosper - To be fair, only Pakistanis can decide whether to die slowly or die fast or to start the kinds of changes that will make these choices irrelevant

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

A powerful post, I hope more Pakistanis can read this post - however, there is a difference between the situation in Pakistan and Jordan - whereas in Jordan the Army and Armed Forces were determined servants of the state, in Pakistan the situation of all three segments of the armed forces is very complex, particularly after the so called "Islamization" -- Whereas Jordan for the Armed Forces it was Jordan that is important, in Pakistan, it cannot be said that Pakistan is important for the Armed Forces, rather it is "political Islam" that is important -- this is the sad reality, after all, you don't really think that Talib are able to have success after success, or that Pakistani armed forces regularly surrender to the Talib and are beheaded, without the support from within the armed forces, do you?

What can be done? Obviously, the orientation of the armed forces has to be changed, but if you try that, the Islamists will threaten all out civil war - the choice before Pakistan is to die slowly or die fast -- But there is another choice, make the hard decision, to defeat the Islamist and to survive and prosper - To be fair, only Pakistanis can decide whether to die slowly or die fast or to start the kinds of changes that will make these choices irrelevant

Jordanian army is as religious as yours, and put Islam first, but they witnessed by their own eyes those rebels acts trying to spread lawlessness and chaos and they acted accordingly. Afterall, it's not rocket science to realize that Islam forbid killing foreign ambassadors, trade drugs and arms, flouting state authority. Guess what, those extremists threatened to attack female students if a university opened in Maan during king Hussien era, and the king responded that he would assign two soldiers escorting every student if he had to, and eventually it was opened and thousands have been graduated from it.

The point is that Islam is innocent from those people and people and the army here realize that, while it seems that your army and people are confusing Islam with terrorism. Don't blame Islam, blame your mindsets.

 

[muse]

Jordanian army is as religious as yours, and put Islam first, but they witnessed by their own eyes those rebels acts trying to spread lawlessness and chaos and they acted accordingly. Afterall, it's not rocket science to realize that Islam forbid killing foreign ambassadors, trade drugs and arms, flouting state authority. Guess what, those extremists threatened to attack female students if a university opened in Maan during king Hussien era, and the king responded that he would assign two soldiers escorting every student if he had to, and eventually it was opened and thousands have been graduated from it.

The point is that Islam is innocent from those people and people and the army here realize that, while it seems that your army and people are confusing Islam with terrorism. Don't blame Islam, blame your mindsets.

It's very unfortunate that you choose to respond defensively - you say the mindset is the problem - but the mindset is informed by Islam, isn't that the case?

There is a problem, a disconnect somewhere in here - where do you think the disconnect is? After all, if the understanding of Islam
is not the problem, what then is? It's like saying that the problem with communists is not communism, does it make sense?

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

It's very unfortunate that you choose to respond defensively - you say the mindset is the problem - but the mindset is informed by Islam, isn't that the case?

There is a problem, a disconnect somewhere in here - where do you think the disconnect is? After all, if the understanding of Islam
is not the problem, what then is? It's like saying that the problem with communists is not communism, does it make sense?

I am telling you the truth, it's really unfortunate that you reached a point of frustration to blame it on Islam, the religion of peace and forgiveness. There are criminals inside every religion and those we are talking about are criminals, we shouldn't allow them to hijack our beautiful Islam. Again, there are 1,5 billion Muslims and 53 Muslim countries, yet, why only few of them are experiencing terrorism? Look at African countries where most of the people are not Muslims but they act like monsters toward eachothers, is it the fault of Islam?

 

[muse]

I am telling you the truth, it's really unfortunate that you reached a point of frustration to blame it on Islam, the religion of peace and forgiveness. There are criminals inside every religion and those we are talking about are criminals, we shouldn't allow them to hijack our beautiful Islam. Again, there are 1,5 billion Muslims and 53 Muslim countries, yet, why only few of them are experiencing terrorism? Look at African countries where most of the people are not Muslims but they act like monsters toward eachothers, is it the fault of Islam?

That's exactly what I mean by defensive -- you say peace and forgiveness - and I challenge you to show me, show the world. You say Muslims act like monsters towards each other but that has no relation to Islam -- on the other hand you would never grant that the problem with communists is not communism? Just be real, there is no need to be defensive - we have a problem here.

Look, instead of being defensive, deal with the problem -- We have a problem, isn't that right? What is the problem? Is it political Islam? if not then what?

 

[Marshmallow]

da bad situations in PAK has effectd me big time n c i can not even boil an egg or score very gud in exams

 

[Ayush]

da bad situations in PAK has effectd me big time n c i can not even boil an egg or score very gud in exams

don't worry marsha.that is a problem we all college/school students share)

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

That's exactly what I mean by defensive -- you say peace and forgiveness - and I challenge you to show me, show the world. You say Muslims act like monsters towards each other but that has no relation to Islam -- on the other hand you would never grant that the problem with communists is not communism? Just be real, there is no need to be defensive - we have a problem here.

Look, instead of being defensive, deal with the problem -- We have a problem, isn't that right? What is the problem? Is it political Islam? if not then what?

I am not being defensive but rather refuting your baseless claims. And I will show you what's Islam:


The Caliph left Ali in Medina as his deputy and himself left for Jerusalem. He had only one attendant with him and only one camel to ride. Omar and the attendant rode the camel by turns. It happened to be the servant's turn to ride on the day when they were to reach Jerusalem. "Commander of the Faithful," said the attendant, "I give up my turn. It will look awkward, in the eyes of the people, if I ride and you lead the camel."
"Oh no," replied Omar, "I am not going to be unjust. The honor of Islam is enough for us all."
Abu Obaid, Khalid, Yazid and other officers of the army went some distance to receive the Caliph. All of them were wearing silk cloaks. This made Omar angry. He took some pebbles and threw them at his generals, saying, "Have you changed so much in just two years? What dress is this? Even if you had done this two hundred years from now, I would have dismissed you."
The officers replied, "Commander of the Faithful, we are in a land where the quality of clothes worn tells the rank of a man. If we wear ordinary clothes, we will command little respect among the people. However, we are wearing our arms underneath the silken robes."
This answer cooled down the anger of the Caliph.
Next the Caliph signed the treaty of peace. It ran as follows:
"From the servant of Allah and the Commander of the Faithful, Omar: The inhabitants of Jerusalem are granted security of life and property. Their churches and crosses shall be secure. This treaty applies to all people of the city. Their places of worship shall remain intact. These shall neither be taken over nor pulled down. People shall be quite free to follow their religion. They shall not be put to any trouble..."
The gates of the city were now opened. Omar went straight to Al-Masjid-i-Aqsa. Here he said his prayer .
Next he visited the biggest Christian church of the city. He was in the church when the time for the afternoon prayer came.
"You may say your prayers in the church," said the Bishop.
"No," replied Omar, "if I do so, the Muslims may one day make this an excuse for taking over the church from you."
So he said his prayers on the steps of the church. Even then, he gave the Bishop a writing. It said that the steps were never to be used for congregational prayers nor was the Adhan [ call to prayer ] to be said there.
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A man from the Copts(Copts are the Christians living in Egypt) came to Omar ibn al-Khattab in Al-Madinah, and said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I seek refuge in you from oppression.” Omar replied, “You have sought refuge where it is to be sought.” The Egyptian said, “I was racing the son of `Amr ibn al-`Aas, and defeated him. Then he began to beat me with a whip saying: I am the Son of Nobles!”

So Omar wrote to `Amr commanding him to appear before him with his son. So they appeared before him. Omar inquired, “Where is the Egyptian? He is to take the whip and beat him!” Then the Egyptian began to beat the son of `Amr with the whip as `Umar said to him, “Beat the Son of Nobles!”

Anas said, “So he beat him. I swear by Allah, as he was beating him we pitied his wailing. He did not desist until we stopped him.”

Then Omar said to the Egyptian, “Now beat the whip upon `Amr’s bald head!” He replied, “O Commander of the Faithful! For it was his son who beat me, and I have evened the score with him.”

Upon this Omar said to `Amr, “Since when do you enslave the people when their mothers bore them as free men?” He said, “O Commander of the Faithful! I was unaware of this, and he did not come to me (for justice).”
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Amr Ibn El Aas decided to increase the area of his mosque in Egypt and there was a house owned by a Christian woman in the area that he wanted to increase it in, so he offered her money to leave her house but she refused, so he demolished the house and increased the mosque area. The Christian woman sent a message to Omar Ibn El Khattab telling him what happened. Omar Ibn El Khattab asked Amr Ibn El Aas why he did this. Amr replied that he wanted to increase the mosque area and he offered the woman money and she refused. Omar Ibn El Khattab ordered Amr to demolish the increased area of the mosque and to rebuild the house for the Christian woman. Amr Ibn El Aas obeyed Omar and personally supervised the rebuilding of the house.
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One day Omar Ibn El Khattab was walking and he saw an old Jewish man begging. Omar asked him why he was begging. The Jewish man told him that he is begging to pay Jeziah (a certain amount of money paid by non-Muslims living in Muslims lands for the purpose of protection since they will not join the Muslim Army who will protect them against any harm). Omar told him, "We have given you injustice," and swore to give him from the Muslims’ money and he did.

 

[muse]

I am not being defensive but rather refuting your baseless claims. And I will show you what's Islam:


The Caliph left Ali ......

Why BlackBeagle,WHY? why do you guys do stuff like this - this is an international forum, people from all over the world read - here - and you were offered a opportunity to discuss a problem and help us toward a solution - you say you are not defensive and then proceed to bombard us with historical anecdotes - what next reams of hadith? prophesies??

Very disappointing, you started out with honesty only t surrender to the defensive instinct, you forgotten that we were talking about a real problem -- as long as you guys prefer to hide than to fix problems, you will have to get out of the way of people who don't take you seriously, because you won't allow us to.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Why BlackBeagle,WHY? why do you guys do stuff like this - this is an international forum, people from all over the world read - here - and you were offered a opportunity to discuss a problem and help us toward a solution - you say you are not defensive and then proceed to bombard us with historical anecdotes - what next reams of hadith? prophesies??

Very disappointing, you started out with honesty only t surrender to the defensive instinct, you forgotten that we were talking about a real problem -- as long as you guys prefer to hide than to fix problems, you will have to get out of the way of people who don't take you seriously, because you won't allow us to.

You requested it, I tried to show you that Muslims don't act like you in most Muslim countries and you ignored it, then I thought it's better to show you the true Islam through historical events. Anyway..

 

[muse]

Peace and Forgiveness? You decide:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/235424-blast-quetta-kills-55-shias-injures-165-a.html#post3928227

 

[haviZsultan]

Let's discuss ideas please.

Rest assured. Nothing personal against you.

Nationalism is one thing I have believed in. Before I fell sick I used to wake up only to the national anthem, kissed the flag daily which hung from my wall in Dubai. Do not doubt peoples patriotism. You do not know me nor have seen how my life has been spent in the service of this land.

The offer stands. My patriotism is being doubted now when I spent my entire life with nothing but Pakistan Zindabad on my lips despite having lived abroad a great deal of time? I am very depressed over this. I thought I wouldn't reply but this one thing is bringing me back. What do I need to do? What else? The government should be protecting me since I have been the one on the receiving end for my nationalism. I abandoned everything for Pakistani cause. And now I must be forced to prove my nationalism?

Offer still stands. I will forget my massive sickness if I am in a team hunting Taliban militants. I particularly want a squad to get top leaders of the Taliban (Not one has been killed or arrested). I want this to be my special task. We nationalists discussed why ISI does not do it but found no answers and most said they are probably doing it-why did we say that because we wanted to defend the name of ISI and didn't want to feel we were maligning it by calling it failure. Still each commander is alive. If you do not trust me fauj, one person can be appointed by Pakistan army to help me and report on every activity I do. Monthly report can be sent to top officer. It is an open challenge to those who doubt my nationalism. I will find the rest of the team myself.

I really want the enemies of my country like the TTP eliminated though our long list of failures here (excluding Black thunderstorm or rah e raast) causes me concern. I will bring down Hakimullah, leader of TTP (Pakistani Taliban and enemy of state) to prove my patriotism (Dunno why ISI didn't do it) if the government gives me a small professional team, I can set things up in weeks though I have a sickness. If you are a bigwig American who controls our government tell them that and give me the opportunity... you want to test my loyalty to nation I am open for that. Pakistan is the only thing that matters to me. For it any sacrifice is acceptable-maybe I have had a past, but doubting my loyalty to land and nation which I eternally served?

 

[haviZsultan]

Peace and Forgiveness? You decide:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/235424-blast-quetta-kills-55-shias-injures-165-a.html#post3928227

Not another one by those Jhangvi pigs. I can't even swear as TT. Blasts have increased with the release of Malik Ishaq. What we want to do we have no idea... no security for our own citizens. Pity. Then we try to say its the same for everyone like my journalist colleague. Its not. Minorities-the smaller the minority the more it is targetted. Shias continue to suffer in Quetta.

If you are Shia Muse bashing my head against a wall until it bleeds even won't be enough to apologize for the crimes of Wahabis and Deobandis. Don't know how it will work either as I consider myself neither (though our ancestors madrassa/university in Lucknow was deobandi-but secular/tolerant deobandi)... sorry Muse. Sorry Shias. It is our fault. We failed to condemn them-we have become separate communities rather than one Pakistanis. I will say I am with my Shia brothers but not long after Batman or some other will destroy all I try to achieve in terms of communal hamony...