How the situation in Pakistan has affected our psyche?

[haviZsultan]

I will give a reply tommorow @muse and I will explain my views on the topic in a massive post tommorow. Right now am feeling really weak.

 

[Xestan]

But compare this to India. One soldier killed (beheaded if we believe them and they are still punishing us by killing more and more soldiers. They do not treat death lightly like us. I wanted to ask if this is an affect of war. But no one responded on this thread.

One thing which can explain this is that Indians are not at war right now. They don't get to suffer like us. As I said in my last post, Pakistani society is getting 'used to' it.

Very solid point which I wanted to make. Violence has a way of making us (what should I call it) Beghairat (sorry for the term) We do not care and become nonchalant about daily killings and death. This is another thing the war on terror has done to us. When we returned here to Karachi we feared everything but our relatives were used to it. They feared nothing. Perhaps thats another reason they do not understand how their votes are afflicting Pakistan (they vote for MQM)

But this is one of the greatest afflictions. Becoming used to it and saying "yeh toh roz hota hai"... it is coming to accept a horrible situation and it means we refuse to fight back.

No, it doesn't mean, we're refusing to fight back. Well, I see it more likely as a 'time bomb'. Pakistanis are a kind of people who'd suffer so much but just get up suddenly, the threshold of the public has just increased, unfortunately, and again the WoT is to blame for that.

That is the message of hope I was seeking and that is why I like some Zaid Hamid supporters. They give us something to be proud of. I became a cynic because of what I saw and how my sacrifices for my country can matter little but I guess a lot still have optimism. You guys are proud, haughty and bow to no one. I like that and in this I would like to emulate you. WE Pakistanis were proud once. Now we have shrivelled up into cacoons of self-defeat. Criticism is necessary but it's purpose is not to make us lose hope. I hope Muse sees this.

Well, Havi, there will always be reasons to not feel proud of your country but the thing is, there are more reasons to feel proud on the other side. It depends on which way you wanna go. Even in the worst of times, Pakistanis, our older generations have survived and didn't lose hope. Just look at 1971, situation today is noway near to what was back then. Still, Pakistanis moved on, and achieved some impossibles in coming years.

Next will be a translation of what I wrote or how we have been moulded into a horrid shape by the flames of war that touched the clay of our skin.. I have wanted to discuss this for long.

One thing I missed in my last post. The whole public is never to be looked at when you wanna find the 'hope' and in the same way, when you're looking for change, you need to look at some segments of the society, not the whole. For example, youth of a nation, how they are behaving, what they are upto, etc shows you what the future hold for them. Same way, when you're talking of change, the educated class is the most responsible one.

A change, a revolution, or whatever you call it, always starts from a small group. The educated are the ones who bring a change in a society, masses always follow.

Point is, see if mid-class educated people are also losing hope, I think there are fair number of people 'not losing' hope. And I find it satisfactory enough to see a bright future Insha'Allah.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I ......

When did I support the mullah, when did I oppose the army. I never supported the mullah ....e

Let's discuss ideas please.

Rest assured. Nothing personal against you.

Look around and see.

Any ideas that are used by Jih@dis to rally Pakistanis against army should be discarded.

Any ideas that deny Jih@dis the chance to rally Pakistanis against army should be adopted.

We do disservice to our country when we bring in US and China and make our local issues into international issues. This precisely the type of food that sustains Talib-bozos in Pakistan.

Thank you.


and please get some rest.


peace

 

[haviZsultan]

Slept at 12. Woke up at 4

HaviZ

Thank for another excellent post -

Welcome brother. That coming from you is a huge boon. I thought no one cared about what I posted.

Hope? It's there just not much of it - Why not more hope? The Pakistani Armed Forces, these people above all else could have offered hope,

Indeed. I was thinking Muse despair sells too. My book Badal has gained a gloomy outlook with time though it is just fiction but the more I am going through it the more I am seeing my cynicism translated in it. Also people think it doesn't criticize the ISI, something I purposely avoided. But thats another thing I can add when I make a full conclusion post.

It's clear to me, are just not any solution, they are the source of problem, they have been infiltrated and their ability to save Pakistan, is now severely limited - as you pointed, all the attacks on Armed forces bases and FC and Police, all of these attacks are based on inside information -

I agree with you that the army has regularly failed to protect and defend the nation's interests. Its failure to guard its own aircrafts and weapons systems is even more worrying. But I know there are good people there too. I don't want to lose hope and become the cynic I have become. But again that is another effect of the war. Making us doubt our capabilities and defence institutions. But then the failure is also great. We do account for 79% of all terrorism deaths in South Asia in 2011.

The usual apologist line is that it's politicians to blame, well yeah, sure but it's really the armed Forces, and especially the ISI and the Army.

I understand your thinking. I do not wish to lose faith in these final institutions though. Have always held them in high regard.

Taliban in Pakistan has been a problem since 1998/99, they had actually begun to form and capture territory since 1998/99 - no 9/11, no WOT, it was 1998/99 - See, you and I think of the kinds of things happening in Pakistan as a problem, obviously many in the Pakistani state and the Fauj, see these events as the birthing of a glorious Islamic whatever. It is this reality that makes me less hopeful, not about whether Pakistan will survive, but rather whether what does survive will be anything we may want to be a part of.

You speak of the muddling along narrative in the future of Pakistan. I understand.

I don't know, being a cynic how I can transfer hope as I do not have much myself though I have a solid belief in Pakistan-there is no reason not to-not just because of my background but what I saw. The pain in the eyes of those we moved from Hyderabad and other parts like Kashmir. It was like they were escaping some terrible cataclysm. Some cried, some begged never to be sent back to India again. Both my parents were born in Lucknow actually- still I refuse the label muhajir initially in nationalism then when that failed for ethnic unity and love for Pashtuns. lol. This land is all we have. I believe we should not lose faith in it.

My purpose for this thread was to bring back the glimmer of faith we once had, raise the changes that have occured in our psyche that our detrimental (such as accepting death as a daily routine)... we need in our attitudes the pre-war Pakistan minus the mullah crowd. Perhaps a positive outlook or identifying the changes in our mindset we will be able to beat these terrorists?

 

[muse]

My purpose for this thread was to bring back the glimmer of faith we once had, raise the changes that have occured in our psyche that our detrimental (such as accepting death as a daily routine)... we need in our attitudes the pre-war Pakistan minus the mullah crowd. Perhaps a positive outlook or identifying the changes in our mindset we will be able to beat these terrorists?

I wish you much success - and variety of outlooks makes reading here worthwhile. For me it's all really rather simple, I would want a normal Pakistan, not a socialist, not an Islamist, not a wahabi Pakistan, just a normal Pakistan - Is this possible? certainly, but not without returning institutions of the state (read Armed Forces) to a normal outlook, one of Duty, Discipline and Patriotism, not Iman, Taqvah and Jihad (the motto of the Pakistan Army)

All the changes we want, the key to it, is the reform of that institution.

 

[A.Rafay]

Drones strikes are also affecting people Of tribal areas as well as whole Pakistan, They should stop. Tribals have no hope now, They were having Taliban Problem and now drone Attacks from past five Years!

 

[Alpha1]

, I would want a normal Pakistan, not a socialist, not an Islamist, not a wahabi Pakistan, just a normal Pakistan - Is this possible? certainly, but not without returning institutions of the state (read Armed Forces) {{{to a normal outlook, one of Duty, Discipline and Patriotism, not Iman, Taqvah and Jihad (the motto of the Pakistan Army)}}}

.

Thanks for reminding us what liberal fascism realy is! And keep your atheism to yourself

 

[haviZsultan]

My views on the topic are summerized in this final post from my side. For years Pakistan has been suffering mass destruction and killing in the form of terrorism. No Pakistani is safe today. This has affected us in a number of ways.

First it has destroyed our ability to sympathize with others. We think of ourselves as tiny communities of Sindhi, Baloch, Shia and Sunni rather than as a federational unit. Militancy has a power to do that. It weakens peoples faith in their brothers. Look at Karachi. The same parties involved in the killings have a major stake in running the city. It has destroyed something known as unity in our land and we refuse to accept this as a reality. For example look at the killings in Quetta. In Balochistan every community considers itself separate and alone in its fight against terrorism. I can cite the case of a Hazara widow but will refrain because it would be as if I am blaming her after losing a loved one.

Second it's made us more self-critical-it would have been unimaginable talking about the military in such a negative fashion and labelling it necessary debate earlier. But it has also made us lose hope and trust in ourselves and confidence in our abilities. This is the negative part. Despair and despondency too have set in and on many occassions Pakistanis have expressed the formation of Pakistan was a mistake (I really dislike it when people say that)

The third thing is we have come to accept death as a daily part of our lives. We hear of it so much that we refuse to identify death, killing or murder as a vile threat that should be stopped. The TTP are rampaging across the country, we do not stop them, we do not stop LET or Haqqani's (we can't actually when we can't stop Hakimullah), we do not stop LEJ nor do we have the will to stop political violence in Karachi. We are becoming conditioned to a world of violence and that is wrong.

The fourth issue is a some Pakistanis have become fanatics and refuse to think with reason and logic. They have adopted hatred for other sects and ethnic groups and refuse to understand that their attitudes are part of the issue, not the solution.

The fifth issue is we have forgotten foreign policy. It is the cost of our focus within. The army's greenbook too identifies militants within as the primary threat rather than India or US. This is a major policy shift that could be the pre-cursor to a major change in the military's thinking. But it has come at a cost. We do not protest the Indo-US/Indo-Italian nuke deal, we do not challenge the offer to sell better quality F16's to India. These things tell us we are less assertive as India grows more assertive. WAr has forced us to become subservient and look within at home instead of abroad and you see it in our policy.

Sixth, it has made a lot of us understand that there is something wrong in the way the country is actually run. Many are trying to fix it which is a brilliant way to proceed. Pakistan may well not only get through this but thrive.... if we vote for the right person this election and forget dictators and corrupt rulers. We can fix our country and the situation can be salvaged.

All the changes we want, the key to it, is the reform of that institution.

One solid statement which I fully support! The military should open up to major changes. I've sought to say this but I didn't know how to without my patriotism being suspect. The military has mistakenly killed civilians and destroyed their houses in Swat. My gardener in Dubai revealed the same thing. He was from Dir. His house was destroyed. No compensation. Instead it denies any wrong-doing. The army should take accountability. It has to win people over.

Even I have the same issue. I don't know whether they will protect me as a citizen of Pakistan at all or rather harass me on foreign behest. They eroded their trust themselves. I can't believe I just made an offer to work for a special hit team in an intelligence agency in hunting down TTP top leadership when I am sick. Fauj probably has no ties to the army and is probably in US.

I will still love my country and if I get the chance, will prove my loyalty to nation and people but if some army men think I am expendable for the betterment of Pakistan I will take that bullet.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

My views on the topic are summerized in this final post from my side. For years Pakistan has been suffering mass destruction and killing in the form of terrorism. No Pakistani is safe today. This has affected us in a number of ways.

First it has destroyed our ability to sympathize with others. ....................

Second it's made us more self-critical-it would have been unimaginable talking about the military in such a negative fashion and labelling it necessary debate earlier. ..................

The third thing is we have come to accept death as a daily part of our lives. .....................

The fourth issue is a some Pakistanis have become fanatics and refuse to think with reason and logic. ................

The fifth issue is we have forgotten foreign policy. ..........................

Sixth, it has made a lot of us understand that there is something wrong in the way the country is actually run. ..................

So, in summary, we have become unsympathetic, unimaginably self-critical, accepting of death, fanatics devoid of reason and logic, without an effective foreign policy and know that our country is being run in a wrong way.

And yet you want us to be optimistic. On what grounds?

 

[Kaniska]

As an outsider...this is post is an brilliant post and it is worth reading....I am not an expert like other Sr posters here....But i always feel that if at any point of time Pakistan needs character and person to follow to provide their nation a sense of hope and optimism....then Pakistan Cricket team is the best example of it...I think if you have to learn about how to become successful and optimistic when whole world around you turns bad...then emulate,follow and discuss with each of the Pakistan cricket team member that how come inpspite of so many odds since last 5 year...still each of the cricket player when goes to the field...they always have a nice smile, good arrogance that they are a best bowling team and strong sense of optimism that they are world beater...So Pakistan donot need to go any where for their leader rather than follow and practice the way Pakistan cricket team is still riding on the success in spite of being at odd with the rest of the world....

 

[haviZsultan]

So, in summary, we have become unsympathetic, unimaginably self-critical, accepting of death, fanatics devoid of reason and logic, without an effective foreign policy and know that our country is being run in a wrong way.

And yet you want us to be optimistic. On what grounds?

You would have noticed I started on the negative and ended with the positive point which was we were understanding the issues in our country and taking a lead in solving them. You turned it into something else. The purpose is to draw attention to our problem-that is the initial, first step towards anything. That post identifies the problem-how we have become after the war.

By looking at how we were before it or in more peaceful times we can try to change that (perhaps before 1970). I am indeed a cynic, that too because of things I saw though I was once that man who vociferously argued for Pakistan and took offense at minor things. Still there are optimists like @Xestan around who can help in turning the tide against our rising threshold for violence and other issues. I just wanted to identify the core factors affected in our psyche by the war, it has already been done.

The message of optimism. My cynical words sap into that but then I still hope and believe in Pakistan, so perhaps there is optimism in me too.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Every single country has a dark side including mine, similar situation Jordan went through decades ago. Although, it's not in my life time but I don't even like to remember it nor talking about it. However, all I learned from it is that the state sovereignty can't be compromised, force other than the state's mustn't be allowed. No matter how gloomy the picture of imposing states law by force could look but it's definitely not worse than jeopardizing the whole nation. I am not aware of the complexities and details, but heard the rebels are too many, strong vicious fighters, infiltrate from/to the unstable Afghanistan, living in rugged terrain, have sympathizers everywhere. If the force is not possible, the least state can do is to develop those areas, educate it's people, employ it's young people as this will give them sth to live for. Suicide bombers are desperate to the point to believe they will get heaven for killing a couple of people, they actually would believe in this if they have nothing to live for, and do anything to end their miserable life.

I have a story to share, I studied in Southern Jordan, in Maan city which is a tribal city and the least developed, where the state of law is relatively loose. It's people are the least educated among Jordanians, they used to ignore state law, commit crimes and prevent police from tracking culprits, exceed the speed on streets, belittle police using and trading drugs...etc, however, the state tried to deal with them softly until 2002 Islamic fundamentalists crossed the line by attacking police stations and state institutions, declaring Jordanian regime as Kaffir, and killed the US ambassador. At this point, state of war was declared in the city, and the army attacked them, after few days of fighting, they were all arrested, killed or gave up, however, their leader still in jail, and about 30-50 were killed. People of the city distanced themselves from both parties although they sympathized with the rebels, but they were overwhelmed by the power state used and electricity and water was cut off. After two years a university was opened there, and developments started in all sectors. Some people expected that there would be much more deaths and longer fight, but it turn to be much easier.

As I witnessed it by my eyes in four years of my study there, people of the city were considerably changed as they got influenced by the open minded and educated students coming from other far more developed cities.

 

[haviZsultan]

Every single country has a dark side including mine, similar situation Jordan went through decades ago. Although, it's not in my life time but I don't even like to remember it nor talking about it. However, all I learned from it is that the state sovereignty can't be compromised, force other than the state's mustn't be allowed. No matter how gloomy the picture of imposing states law by force could look but it's definitely not worse than jeopardizing the whole nation. I am not aware of the complexities and details, but heard the rebels are too many, strong vicious fighters, infiltrate from/to the unstable Afghanistan, living in rugged terrain, have sympathizers everywhere. If the force is not possible, the least state can do is to develop those areas, educate it's people, employ it's young people as this will give them sth to live for. Suicide bombers are desperate to the point to believe they will get heaven for killing a couple of people, they actually would believe in this if they have nothing to live for, and do anything to end their miserable life.

I have a story to share, I studied in Southern Jordan, in Maan city which is a tribal city and the least developed, where the state of law is relatively loose. It's people are the least educated among Jordanians, they used to ignore state law, commit crimes and prevent police from tracking culprits, exceed the speed on streets, belittle police using and trading drugs...etc, however, the state tried to deal with them softly until 2002 Islamic fundamentalists crossed the line by attacking police stations and state institutions, declaring Jordanian regime as Kaffir, and killed the US ambassador. At this point, state of war was declared in the city, and the army attacked them, after few days of fighting, they were all arrested, killed or gave up, however, their leader still in jail, and about 30-50 were killed. People of the city distanced themselves from both parties although they sympathized with the rebels, but they were overwhelmed by the power state used and electricity and water was cut off. After two years a university was opened there, and developments started in all sectors. Some people expected that there would be much more deaths and longer fight, but it turn to be much easier.

As I witnessed it by my eyes in four years of my study there, people of the city were considerably changed as they got influenced by the open minded and educated students coming from other far more developed cities.

Much appreciated. FATA has a literacy rate of 22% and only 7% for women. Unemployment figures are unavailable but 50%+ are believed to be unemployed. The terrorists offer 20,000-25,000 Rupees, more than a truck driver earns and normal citizen can get a job in the Taliban. No one knows how we can deal with it when militants have entrenched themselves so firmly in FATA. Almost all those employed in FATA or studying are doing so outside FATA itself. Only 33 colleges exist there and not even one university. Schools are scarce. So its the ignored backyard of Pakistan. Till february 2012 militants had blown up 468 schools in past 5 years (from 2007)... so

My friend, very complex situation. But that is off-topic. But your advice is A1! The failure to develop those regions lead to what happened later on there.

 

[somebozo]

The only solution to Pakistan mess is to throw away talibozos and mullaism on state level, embrace secularism and science, bring religion under state control. Arrest anyone found with Jamati or moododi literature and tried for treason under ATC court. Ban and dissolve JI and TJ. Accecpting foreign donations should be considered a treason. Ban beards and knee high shalwars. All mosques should be controlled by the state and the moulvis will be government servants.

 

[zakriaarshad]

"Optimistic approach... which is mandatory for every Pakistani as well as every institution is first to admit any blunder committed by any one..... The ordeals through which are passing are not not centuries old............ I think we are facing problems as well as having some "faults"............. Solution should be adopted for problems and eliminator rectification for faults......... We carry out any operation to eliminate some thing which may have "breeding effects"........ To us problem has been solved and fault has been eliminated but in years to come we have to face breeding effects of our own actions..."