haviZsultan
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But compare this to India. One soldier killed (beheaded if we believe them and they are still punishing us by killing more and more soldiers. They do not treat death lightly like us. I wanted to ask if this is an affect of war. But no one responded on this thread.
Very solid point which I wanted to make. Violence has a way of making us (what should I call it) Beghairat (sorry for the term) We do not care and become nonchalant about daily killings and death. This is another thing the war on terror has done to us. When we returned here to Karachi we feared everything but our relatives were used to it. They feared nothing. Perhaps thats another reason they do not understand how their votes are afflicting Pakistan (they vote for MQM)
But this is one of the greatest afflictions. Becoming used to it and saying "yeh toh roz hota hai"... it is coming to accept a horrible situation and it means we refuse to fight back.
That is the message of hope I was seeking and that is why I like some Zaid Hamid supporters. They give us something to be proud of. I became a cynic because of what I saw and how my sacrifices for my country can matter little but I guess a lot still have optimism. You guys are proud, haughty and bow to no one. I like that and in this I would like to emulate you. WE Pakistanis were proud once. Now we have shrivelled up into cacoons of self-defeat. Criticism is necessary but it's purpose is not to make us lose hope. I hope Muse sees this.
Next will be a translation of what I wrote or how we have been moulded into a horrid shape by the flames of war that touched the clay of our skin.. I have wanted to discuss this for long.
I ......
When did I support the mullah, when did I oppose the army. I never supported the mullah ....e
HaviZ
Thank for another excellent post -
Hope? It's there just not much of it - Why not more hope? The Pakistani Armed Forces, these people above all else could have offered hope,
It's clear to me, are just not any solution, they are the source of problem, they have been infiltrated and their ability to save Pakistan, is now severely limited - as you pointed, all the attacks on Armed forces bases and FC and Police, all of these attacks are based on inside information -
The usual apologist line is that it's politicians to blame, well yeah, sure but it's really the armed Forces, and especially the ISI and the Army.
Taliban in Pakistan has been a problem since 1998/99, they had actually begun to form and capture territory since 1998/99 - no 9/11, no WOT, it was 1998/99 - See, you and I think of the kinds of things happening in Pakistan as a problem, obviously many in the Pakistani state and the Fauj, see these events as the birthing of a glorious Islamic whatever. It is this reality that makes me less hopeful, not about whether Pakistan will survive, but rather whether what does survive will be anything we may want to be a part of.
My purpose for this thread was to bring back the glimmer of faith we once had, raise the changes that have occured in our psyche that our detrimental (such as accepting death as a daily routine)... we need in our attitudes the pre-war Pakistan minus the mullah crowd. Perhaps a positive outlook or identifying the changes in our mindset we will be able to beat these terrorists?
, I would want a normal Pakistan, not a socialist, not an Islamist, not a wahabi Pakistan, just a normal Pakistan - Is this possible? certainly, but not without returning institutions of the state (read Armed Forces) {{{to a normal outlook, one of Duty, Discipline and Patriotism, not Iman, Taqvah and Jihad (the motto of the Pakistan Army)}}}
.
All the changes we want, the key to it, is the reform of that institution.
My views on the topic are summerized in this final post from my side. For years Pakistan has been suffering mass destruction and killing in the form of terrorism. No Pakistani is safe today. This has affected us in a number of ways.
First it has destroyed our ability to sympathize with others. ....................
Second it's made us more self-critical-it would have been unimaginable talking about the military in such a negative fashion and labelling it necessary debate earlier. ..................
The third thing is we have come to accept death as a daily part of our lives. .....................
The fourth issue is a some Pakistanis have become fanatics and refuse to think with reason and logic. ................
The fifth issue is we have forgotten foreign policy. ..........................
Sixth, it has made a lot of us understand that there is something wrong in the way the country is actually run. ..................
So, in summary, we have become unsympathetic, unimaginably self-critical, accepting of death, fanatics devoid of reason and logic, without an effective foreign policy and know that our country is being run in a wrong way.
And yet you want us to be optimistic. On what grounds?
Every single country has a dark side including mine, similar situation Jordan went through decades ago. Although, it's not in my life time but I don't even like to remember it nor talking about it. However, all I learned from it is that the state sovereignty can't be compromised, force other than the state's mustn't be allowed. No matter how gloomy the picture of imposing states law by force could look but it's definitely not worse than jeopardizing the whole nation. I am not aware of the complexities and details, but heard the rebels are too many, strong vicious fighters, infiltrate from/to the unstable Afghanistan, living in rugged terrain, have sympathizers everywhere. If the force is not possible, the least state can do is to develop those areas, educate it's people, employ it's young people as this will give them sth to live for. Suicide bombers are desperate to the point to believe they will get heaven for killing a couple of people, they actually would believe in this if they have nothing to live for, and do anything to end their miserable life.
I have a story to share, I studied in Southern Jordan, in Maan city which is a tribal city and the least developed, where the state of law is relatively loose. It's people are the least educated among Jordanians, they used to ignore state law, commit crimes and prevent police from tracking culprits, exceed the speed on streets, belittle police using and trading drugs...etc, however, the state tried to deal with them softly until 2002 Islamic fundamentalists crossed the line by attacking police stations and state institutions, declaring Jordanian regime as Kaffir, and killed the US ambassador. At this point, state of war was declared in the city, and the army attacked them, after few days of fighting, they were all arrested, killed or gave up, however, their leader still in jail, and about 30-50 were killed. People of the city distanced themselves from both parties although they sympathized with the rebels, but they were overwhelmed by the power state used and electricity and water was cut off. After two years a university was opened there, and developments started in all sectors. Some people expected that there would be much more deaths and longer fight, but it turn to be much easier.
As I witnessed it by my eyes in four years of my study there, people of the city were considerably changed as they got influenced by the open minded and educated students coming from other far more developed cities.