How the Iranian conservatives claim that Wilayat-e-Faqih is "Democratic"?

[veg]

qualification of the members of Assembly of Experts is only checked before the election by Guardian council and nothing more. wikipedia is as credible as it's sources.

Wikipedia has written nothing wrong. It is a fact that in name of "checking", Guardian Council never let people take part in the elections which are not loyal to the Wilayat e Faqih system, even if they are not the rapists.

guardian council has 12 members, six Islamic faqihs (expert in Islamic Law), are chosen by the leader and six jurists are chosen by Parliament.

Why only the Jurists?
How come these religious Jurists become the sole representatives of the Iranian people?
Why then leader has to choose 6 out of them, and not the people's chosen parliament has to choose them?
Why then even after the elections still they have to got the approval of the leader?
How could this assembly then remove the leader and Wilayat system while conservatives only filled it with their loyalists through different lame excuses?

Why to find the dirty ways of imposing the Faqih system instead of DIRECT polling where Iranian people could express their choice? You are yourself claiming that Wilayat established by the direct polling of the Iranian people, why then now these same Iranian people got No Right to poll for its continuation or elimination?

we do check the qualification of the people for any position according to our constitution which is approved in a democratic referendum by our people (unlike U.K dictatorship), after all we don't want to let any filthy rapist corrupt many like west to gain power in Iran.

You see, here the conservatives have made way for them to choose only their loyal conservative candidates and eliminating all those who are not loyal to them in name of their being rapists.

If the Reformists are the rapists (as per your logic) then they belong to the jail and not to the polls. But these same rapist Reformists are holding the position of President and Government while Iranian People are not blind and don't believer Reformists to be the rapists as the conservatives suggest.

That blood thirsty so called poor Obama spent 1 billion dollars in his campaign!
rich people helped him to reach power, in return of God knows what kind of filthy requests.
for example Zionists helped him and in return not only he closed his eyes on their war crimes but also by approving the biggest financial help to Israel.

Once again you are showing the same conservative disease of rejecting All if you are able to find a minor fault. The Jewish money may be helpful, but in the end it were the People of America who selected him. One Billion USD is not a big amount in America. The opponent of Obama was also able to get the Jewish support and he was also able to raise the 1 Billion USD funds (if not more).

That's the reality, what you call a minor flaw, is in fact an ultimate corruption.

No, it is still not a ultimate flaw.
Best thing people of America are aware of it, and they DO accept it as a flaw, and try to reform it (contrary to Iranian conservatives who actually even don't accept the Major Flaw of dictatorship of present Wilayat System).

The reality on the Iranian elections remain that pro-west candidate in assembly council lost to the conservative candidate.

The reality is conservatives are playing dirty and not even allowing the Iranian people to cast vote for their representative candidate, as he is not even present there to be voted as Conservatives don't allow him to contest in name of him being a rapist.

by the way it was funny to mention the Germany, a country which it's constitution is written by U.S and is still occupied by U.S forces, and U.S intelligent services even spy on it's Councillor, a f@cked up country in which even reading a book about the lies of Holocaust is equal to prison!
please keep your freedom to yourself, you truly deserve it!

Once again you are showing that same conservative disease of finding one fault and denying the whole system. Even if the constitution has been written by the US, but still it is the people of Germany who agree with it today and want to continue with it and don't want to have the communism or the Faqih type any dictatorship for their country.

I don't know from where you came up with US agencies running the German Chancellor.
US intelligence agencies are not choosing the German Chancellor, but it is solely the German population which is doing it.

And laws about Holocaust are also supported by the German majority up till now. They may be wrong, but still the German Population has the full right to abolish them if they choose to do so by showing the majority.

And once again, what about the other Democracies of the Europe which you again neglected while you could come up with small faults in the German System? When are you going to get rid of this disease?

 

[AmirPatriot]

even imagination of overthrowing the monarch system is equal to life in prison!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/82...of-state-die-monarchy-royal-family-republican

There. Not only did he imagine it, he said it very publicly. And he is still very much the leader of the opposition, and has not gone to jail.

 

[El Sidd]

The one who has become emotional is you. I was talking about referendums in the world and you jump to discussion that we (Pakistan) are unite without referendum! good for you.

Nope. I am just annoyed by false claims.

I am just making a point politely to our guests.

Just like I would say to any secular in your country who preaches secularism in my country matters.

So relax and continue

 

[mohsen]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/82...of-state-die-monarchy-royal-family-republican

There. Not only did he imagine it, he said it very publicly. And he is still very much the leader of the opposition, and has not gone to jail.

That's why that phrase can't become constitution, that's why there will be no constitution.
They let him play like a puppy, but when it became serious someone makes sure he understands that punishment and if he don't then in a beautiful morning his dead body will be found in woods!

 

[mohsen]

Why only the Jurists?
Why then leader has to choose 6 out of them, and not the people's chosen parliament has to choose them?

cause religious matters need to be checked by it's experts, and since Iran is a theocratic system with highest cleric on the top of the system as the leader, it's logical that leader can and should choose the best ones on religious matters.

How come these religious Jurists become the sole representatives of the Iranian people?

They are indirectly chosen by the representatives of the people, and their role is monitoring, Guardian council delegates the process of approval to government's internal ministry.

Why then even after the elections still they have to got the approval of the leader?

looks like you can't read English. as I said the Guardian council is the only authority, there will be no further approval by no one.

How could this assembly then remove the leader and Wilayat system while conservatives only filled it with their loyalists through different lame excuses?

No one wants to remove the Valyat-Faqih system, there is a reason constitution is called constitution and not bills.
pro-west representatives can't even win the leadership inside the assembly itself and you are dreaming of someday removing the Velayat-Faqih system!

You see, here the conservatives have made way for them to choose only their loyal conservative candidates and eliminating all those who are not loyal to them in name of their being rapists.

If the Reformists are the rapists (as per your logic) then they belong to the jail and not to the polls. But these same rapist Reformists are holding the position of President and Government while Iranian People are not blind and don't believer Reformists to be the rapists as the conservatives suggest.

when I said rapist, I was referring to corrupted west leaders. in Iran we execute the rapists with no mercy, let alone letting them become our authorities.

Reformist in Iran have received the qualification at some point, in fact Guardian's council helps them to gain people's trust, many religious people vote to Reformist candidates without being worry on who they really are.
if it wasn't such a approval, then you could see that anti-Velayat people are the absolute minority, the same way 98% of Iranian voted to Islamic Republic system.

Once again you are showing that same conservative disease of finding one fault and denying the whole system. Even if the constitution has been written by the US, but still it is the people of Germany who agree with it today and want to continue with it and don't want to have the communism or the Faqih type any dictatorship for their country.

I don't know from where you came up with US agencies running the German Chancellor.
US intelligence agencies are not choosing the German Chancellor, but it is solely the German population which is doing it.

And laws about Holocaust are also supported by the German majority up till now. They may be wrong, but still the German Population has the full right to abolish them if they choose to do so by showing the majority.

And once again, what about the other Democracies of the Europe which you again neglected while you could come up with small faults in the German System? When are you going to get rid of this disease?

It's funny when people are sent to prison for reading a book in Germany, you call it their freedom!
when U.S dictates a constitution to Germans (without referendum), you call it their demand which doesn't need to be verified each year, but the constitution which Iranian voted to with 98% should be revised each year!!!

find another place for your Bull crap double standards.

 

[veg]

cause religious matters need to be checked by it's experts, and since Iran is a theocratic system with highest cleric on the top of the system as the leader, it's logical that leader can and should choose the best ones on religious matters.

Choosing the Wilayat e Faqih system is not a religious matter, but it is the "Free Choice" of the people of Iran to determine under which system they want to live.
You say nothing wrong with People "1st time" choosing Wilayat e Faqih system, but after that it becomes Haram for them to speak or vote against it as people are stupid and don't know what they want and thus Wilayat system is going to be imposed upon them forever. Double Standards!

They are indirectly chosen by the representatives of the people, and their role is monitoring, Guardian council delegates the process of approval to government's internal ministry.

Parliament choose only half of them.
And Parliament itself not 100% truly representative of Iranian people as once again conservative bodies loyal to leader decide who is allowed to become a candidate. Conservatives have corrupted the system from Top till bottom in order to impose their system upon the Iranian people.

looks like you can't read English. as I said the Guardian council is the only authority, there will be no further approval by no one.

It is totally wrong. You wrongfully accuse wikipedia and others for false informations, but actually it is you who is propagating the false informations.

Here is the constitution of Iran:
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/ir00000_.html

Just read Article 108 of Iranian Constitution, which is very much clear that the Assembly of Experts should be approved by the leader.
//
Article 108 [Experts]
The law setting out the number and qualifications of the experts, the mode of their election, and the code of procedure regulating the sessions during the first term must be drawn up by the religious men on the first Guardian Council, passed by a majority of votes and then finally approved by the Leader of the Revolution.
//

Unfortunately, I don't have good opinion about the extremists that they ever accept their mistakes.

No one wants to remove the Valyat-Faqih system, there is a reason constitution is called constitution and not bills.
pro-west representatives can't even win the leadership inside the assembly itself and you are dreaming of someday removing the Velayat-Faqih system!

Open your eyes. Despite all the obstacles from the non-democratic conservative bodies, still Reformist traitors (according to you) are running the Government of Iran with more than 50% votes, while the conservative patriots did even manage to get 30% votes.

If you are so sure that opponents of Wilayat e Faqih could not win, why then don't you allow them to openly run the elections with open Agenda of removing the wilayat system? Your denial to their right of eliminating wilayat system through people's vote is itself a proof that you are afraid of them and don't give them their right.

when I said rapist, I was referring to corrupted west leaders. in Iran we execute the rapists with no mercy, let alone letting them become our authorities.

The talk was not about those Western Leaders who not even allowed to become the candidates, but the talk was about the Reformists, whom you constantly blame to be traitors, which is even worst than being a rapist.

Reformist in Iran have received the qualification at some point, in fact Guardian's council helps them to gain people's trust, many religious people vote to Reformist candidates without being worry on who they really are.
if it wasn't such a approval, then you could see that anti-Velayat people are the absolute minority, the same way 98% of Iranian voted to Islamic Republic system.

If you believe that 98% Iranians support the Wilayat system, then why you closed the doors upon them for choosing or eliminating this system through their votes? None of your lame excuses make any sense, except for the reality that conservatives are afraid of the loosing and thus they want to impose the Wilayat system through any means.

It's funny when people are sent to prison for reading a book in Germany, you call it their freedom!

No, I don't say it freedom, but I realise it is a fault and should be reformed.

when U.S dictates a constitution to Germans (without referendum), you call it their demand which doesn't need to be verified each year, but the constitution which Iranian voted to with 98% should be revised each year!!!

Once again I have to tell you that German Population is automatically voting for this system when they choose their representatives, who have the further full powers to change the present system if they don't agree with it. Contrary to this, Iranian Parliament is totally powerless to eliminate the Wilayat system.

 

[mohsen]

Choosing the Wilayat e Faqih system is not a religious matter, but it is the "Free Choice" of the people of Iran to determine under which system they want to live.
You say nothing wrong with People "1st time" choosing Wilayat e Faqih system, but after that it becomes Haram for them to speak or vote against it as people are stupid and don't know what they want and thus Wilayat system is going to be imposed upon them forever. Double Standards!

as I said you seems to not understand the difference between constitution and bills (or don't want to understand).
if constitution was supposed to be changeable by every bill, then it wouldn't be called constitution, while you people in the west are drowned in the corruption of filthy rich people, our people demonstrate and celebrate their choice each year, though I know grudge of the jealous eyes can't tolerate such a reality, you better to live in your delusion.

It is totally wrong. You wrongfully accuse wikipedia and others for false informations, but actually it is you who is propagating the false informations.

Here is the constitution of Iran:
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/ir00000_.html

Just read Article 108 of Iranian Constitution, which is very much clear that the Assembly of Experts should be approved by the leader.
//
Article 108 [Experts]
The law setting out the number and qualifications of the experts, the mode of their election, and the code of procedure regulating the sessions during the first term must be drawn up by the religious men on the first Guardian Council, passed by a majority of votes and then finally approved by the Leader of the Revolution.
//

Unfortunately, I don't have good opinion about the extremists that they ever accept their mistakes.

as I said you seems to not understand English or don't want to, when it's not in your interest.

article 108 belongs to the early times of revolution when still there was no assembly of expert or even guardian council. this article says the first guardian council (which was shaped more than 3 decade ago) should define the regulations for the assembly of experts, leader approved this regulation.

next line clearly says after the formation of the assembly, it's own members are free to change their regulations and even qualification parameters ( like being loyal to Velayat-Faqih system).

you deliberately ignored this line, cause you and the author of that wiki links are just trolling:

The power to make any subsequent change or a review of this law, or approval of all the provisions concerning the duties of the experts is vested in themselves.

 

[veg]

as I said you seems to not understand the difference between constitution and bills (or don't want to understand).
if constitution was supposed to be changeable by every bill, then it wouldn't be called constitution,

Constitution is fully open for "Debate/Criticism" and for "Changes" through the People's elected parliament in the Western countries, which is the true democracy.

But what about Wilayat e Faqih system in Iran? Is it open for Debate/Criticism and then change by the Vote of the People?

No.

Therefore, it is an insult to compare the Western Constitution with the Wilayat e Faqih dictatorship.

You were very quick to blame UK system that "Media" works for the Queen. But look at your Wilayat e Faqih system, which does 24 hours Propaganda for itself. But for conservatives, now this Religious Propaganda becomes 100% Halal in name of "Tableegh". What double standards.

In UK, people are totally free to debate and criticize the Kingship and to remove this system through ballot box. But still for Iranian conservative this is "UK Dictatorship", while their own Wilayat e Faqih system neither allows debate, not criticism, nor ballot box, but here all is HALAL for the religious conservatives.

while you people in the west are drowned in the corruption of filthy rich people, our people demonstrate and celebrate their choice each year, though I know grudge of the jealous eyes can't tolerate such a reality, you better to live in your delusion.

If you are sure that people support you, then why not give these same people the right to show their Choice in the ballot box? Why then you usurped this right of the people? If people still vote for Wilayat e Faqih, then all is good and all will accept it.
But here lies the problem. While you people are lairs, therefore you never let the same people go to the polls to use their right to keep or to eliminate the Wilayat system.

as I said you seems to not understand English or don't want to, when it's not in your interest.
article 108 belongs to the early times of revolution when still there was no assembly of expert or even guardian council. this article says the first guardian council (which was shaped more than 3 decade ago) should define the regulations for the assembly of experts, leader approved this regulation.

next line clearly says after the formation of the assembly, it's own members are free to change their regulations and even qualification parameters ( like being loyal to Velayat-Faqih system).

you deliberately ignored this line, cause you and the author of that wiki links are just trolling:

The "first" word was also used for the Guardian Council. But it is still practised that Guardian Council cherry picks the "Candidates" and any one who is against the Wilayat e Faqih system, he is absolutely not allowed to become even a candidate. How in earth then Iranian people could vote for an Assembly which could eliminate the Wilayat system?

And when once all the loyalists of the leader have been gathered in the Assembly of Expert and then in the Guardian Council, then why are they going to make any change in the procedure which take the powers from them away to the People of Iran? They are not even allowing any opponent candidate, so how in the world Iranian people are able to vote out the Wilayat System or even the Guardian Council System and the Assembly of Experts system? In fact Iranian People are so helpless that they could not even vote for any person for the Parliament, who is against the Wilayat e Faqih system.

Thus Iranian System is totally Dictatorship from Top till Bottom, starting from Leader himself, then going down to Assembly of Experts, then to the Guardian Council, and then to the Parliament.

 

[mohsen]

Constitution is fully open for "Debate/Criticism" and for "Changes" through the People's elected parliament in the Western countries, which is the true democracy.

But what about Wilayat e Faqih system in Iran? Is it open for Debate/Criticism and then change by the Vote of the People?

No.

Therefore, it is an insult to compare the Western Constitution with the Wilayat e Faqih dictatorship.

You were very quick to blame UK system that "Media" works for the Queen. But look at your Wilayat e Faqih system, which does 24 hours Propaganda for itself. But for conservatives, now this Religious Propaganda becomes 100% Halal in name of "Tableegh". What double standards.

In UK, people are totally free to debate and criticize the Kingship and to remove this system through ballot box. But still for Iranian conservative this is "UK Dictatorship", while their own Wilayat e Faqih system neither allows debate, not criticism, nor ballot box, but here all is HALAL for the religious conservatives.



If you are sure that people support you, then why not give these same people the right to show their Choice in the ballot box? Why then you usurped this right of the people? If people still vote for Wilayat e Faqih, then all is good and all will accept it.
But here lies the problem. While you people are lairs, therefore you never let the same people go to the polls to use their right to keep or to eliminate the Wilayat system.





The "first" word was also used for the Guardian Council. But it is still practised that Guardian Council cherry picks the "Candidates" and any one who is against the Wilayat e Faqih system, he is absolutely not allowed to become even a candidate. How in earth then Iranian people could vote for an Assembly which could eliminate the Wilayat system?

And when once all the loyalists of the leader have been gathered in the Assembly of Expert and then in the Guardian Council, then why are they going to make any change in the procedure which take the powers from them away to the People of Iran? They are not even allowing any opponent candidate, so how in the world Iranian people are able to vote out the Wilayat System or even the Guardian Council System and the Assembly of Experts system? In fact Iranian People are so helpless that they could not even vote for any person for the Parliament, who is against the Wilayat e Faqih system.

Thus Iranian System is totally Dictatorship from Top till Bottom, starting from Leader himself, then going down to Assembly of Experts, then to the Guardian Council, and then to the Parliament.

British dictator gave all of her authorities to herself, the absolute meaning of dictatorship, while Iranian leader receives it's authority from people's vote.
so a dictator controls the media in U.K and people control the media in Iran.

But I know for people like you dictatorship is democracy and democracy is dictatorship.

 

[at.great]

British dictator gave all of her authorities to herself, the absolute meaning of dictatorship, while Iranian leader receives it's authority from people's vote.
so a dictator controls the media in U.K and people control the media in Iran.

But I know for people like you dictatorship is democracy and democracy is dictatorship.

people control the media in Iran!!!!!!!
دادش اگه می خوای دفاع کنی جای مانور بده که قابل باور باشه آخه کجا رسانه های دست مردم صدا وسیمای میلی

 

[VEVAK]

Despite being a democracy, still the image of Iran is ruined due to the system of non democratic Wilayat-e-Faqih.

On the other hand conservatives are always claiming that Wilayat-e-Faqih is democratic, which no one understands how.

Conservatives come out with an excuse that majority of Iranians support Wilayat-e-Faqih and thus over 70% people take part in the elections. But I don't thing this excuse is true.

Reality is there are no direct Elections in Iran for Wilayat-e-Faqih system, or the "Islamic System".

Even if the majority of Iranians (over 50%) reject the idea of Wilayat-e-Faqih, but still conservatives are not going to let a referendum to take place.

This situation is really hopeless for the Iranian reformists.

1.Iran's supreme leader is selected by elected representatives of the people!
2.The position of the Supreme leader is a life time position much like the judges on the U.S. Supreme Court!

So yes Wilayat e Faqih is elected democratically & just because it's a life time position doesn't mean it's not democratic!

The Prime Minister of U.K. is selected by elected representatives of the people but the actual people don't elect the prime minister of U.K.! But that's still democratic!

The judges on U.S. supreme court are selected when needed by the U.S. president who himself is elected by the people (And like Trump you don't even need a majority vote to win an election in the U.S.) YET no one says the U.S. republic is not democratic or is not a republic!
The definition of republic is that the Majority vote wins! Yet no one is challenging the U.S. & asking it to explain it's self or telling it that your neither a republic or democratic simply because the majority vote LOST the election! The U.S. much like Iran has a system & not everyone may like that system or think it's fair & no one climes either system is perfect but at the end of the day it is a system where people are elected & although both countries have prominent names & elitist families like the Bushes or Larijani's or the Kennedy's or Rafsanjani's.... at the end of the day if all those families are wiped out the system will be in tacked with the same policies as before!

Iran's supreme leader just sets boundaries he doesn't make policy! And he doesn't always agree with policies set within the boundaries set, but he doesn't make policy!
And yes vast majority of Iranians don't agree with many of the boundaries he sets due to generational differences! Vast majority of Iran's population is under 40 vs Iran's supreme leader that is almost 80 years old! So what? it doesn't mean you had the country over to a 25 year old KID!

And the fact that Iran's Supreme Leader is the commander in chief of the military gives Iran stability & prevents mistakes created by a new comer elected president!
Ahmadinejad was also elected in 2005 & I sure as hell don't want him ever being in charge of Iran's military!

Also, Iran's supreme leader was Iran's 3rd President elected by the people so he is not someone who just came out of nowhere! Also, when he passes away the country doesn't go to his son for Iran to be a dictatorial monarchy!