How secular, really, is India?

[Marathaman]

Allright, this is not only to this Marathaguy... It is to anyone who thinks that Pakistan is not Secular even the Pakistanis who are claiming so!

Okay...so even webby here is apparently wrong.

I can't believe that after so much proof you are saying this. We DO NOT compel them to follow the principles of Islam. They are free to go to churches, temples or whereever they want to! You are making up stuff just because you do not have any hard facts or evidence to back your idiotic claims and Pakistan-bashing. When have we ever compelled Hindus or Sikhs to follow Islam? Yes, but the religious principles and hadith also say that "let anyone who wants to follow a religion different than yours, let him do so" So we DO NOT impose Islamic principles on people of a differnet faith and if you think we do give proof rather than keep blabbering about something which you know nothing! Secularism is BUILT INTO those Religious Principles you talk about because even in the time of the Prophet Muslims, Jews and Christians lived peacefully together and the prophet himself said "let them freely practice their varios religions, if we will treat them well they will turn to Islam themselves"

"They will turn to Islam themselves". Hmm....

Gimme a break. Pakistani constitution tells all Pakistanis to be loyal to allah and at the same time "allows" them to practice their religion. If thats not self-contradictory doublespeak, then I don't know what is.

Secularism isn't "built into" any religion. You need to update your understanding of secularism. Try reading up on the French revolution and the writings of Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

I said they were allowed "publically" last year with protection from police from idiot mullahs who were against it. Otherwise it was always at Mandirs and the areas surrounding them that they celebrate and celebrated. They were allowed to celebrate each and every holi! Don't make up stuff just to tell us about your chaotic mindset. Not everyone hates people because of their religion!

Wow..they need police protection? And I thought the Hindu fundamentalists were bad....

Pakistan is Secular even if you people think it was not meant to be!!! I repeat Pakistan is much more secular than India! It is about how people from minorities feel about their respective countries and how they think that they are treated. Just taking a look at what Hindus, Christians and Sikhs say about Pakistan will prove this. If Pakistan did not look after their interests then they would not be this loyal! Ask the Sikhs who joined the army. They are ready to forsake their lives for this nation. Have you ever seen such loyalty from a muslim in India and have you ever wondered why?

Yes I have. I have seen plenty of loyal muslims. Just because you are disloyal doesn't mean everyone else is.
Do you have any idea how large India is? It can swallow up western europe for goodness sake.It has around as many muslims as Pakistan.
If muslims in your tiny corner are treated badly doesn't mean that its happening all over India.
Do you think India would survive if all muslims were treated as badly as you seem to think?

Well, I think that your biases get in the way again when it comes to education for muslims. My cousin was rejected an application in City Montessori College in Lucknow even when he got 72% overall. His parents believe it was discrimination that got in the way! Its all about what people from minorities think! Well it does'nt really look like you want them to be loyal to India because you treat them with contempt and as unequals! Come on! How much will you deny? I have been to India and seen your attitudes!

Lol...72%...no offence...but your cousin was probably rejected because he didnt have enough marks.

Are muslims killed more often or is it the pundits and what about the backlash when some pundit was killed in Hyderabad. Well, as i said if there are too many "sob stories" in India then another Pakistan might be crated because many people from minorities in India are discontent as they suffer bias each and everyday! Ask the Pakistan Nationalists and Sufferers witness and they will tell you how many people they help shift from India to Pakistan and how loyal to Pakistan these people become... these people who were once from your country! You should be proud that you are succeeding in convincing them that India hates them and that they don't belong to India!

I'm sure all the fifty families who shifted to Pakistan are very happy there. I wish them the best of luck.

I would presume that you are under the influence of a powerful drug which makes you say stuff which you yourself know is untrue. How can anyone say it is Pro-Muslim!!! How can I have a conversation with someone who is suggesting that India is Pro-Muslim when muslims are so discontent and feel so unaccepted! Normally? Treated normally???... after all I have said you guys say this rather than be ashamed of how you people treat minorities and how many people are shifting from India because they aren't accepted as citizens. Fine call them "sob stories" if you want and continue ignoring them!

I don't do drugs...
Indian laws are pro-muslim. Go study Indian laws before writing another long pargraph.
Again...not my fault...don't ask me to be ashamed for the deeds of others. I'm not personally responsible for any discrimination your family has faced.

I

won't! Because I admit it is not any better than Indian Police and I might even say worser because I don't stand by vague theories that are completely untrue. I stand by the truth, not by lies and stupid theories that try to bend those lies into truth. Please continue living in denial...

Right....it is quite apparent....

Hmm..so Pakistani police is worse eh.....that is a rather interesting statement considering how you've been bashing India and praising Pakistan.

Well as I said, muslims do not publically say that they are maltreated and oppressed in India and their views are not taken into consideration and considered as strongly as a Hindus. If it is a Hindus word against a muslims then it is the Hindu that gets off rather than the muslim! Anyway i am supposed to be half-indian so I know how muslims in India think. Many only admitted all this to me only when they knew I was half-indian and did not want to admit it to a Pakistani. This might be another reason for Salims fanatical point of view... his hatred for Pakistan.

Of course....all my muslim friends back home hate India and are afraid to admit it to my face...they pretend to cheer for India during cricket matches and secretly pray for Pakistan...lol...wait till i tell them this...

Oh and yeah...Salim's love for India is suddenly "fanatical". Man...you really have a hard time believing that a muslim could love India.

I myself want to hide my face in shame because i have so much to do with a country that has no value for our expectations and beliefs and wants me to get out just because i am from a different religion! That is what makes me exceedingly loyal to Pakistan. If I had felt that India accepted me and wanted me I might have been loyal to India though i cannot imagine myself in such a way because I am glad that I am free from Indian discrimination and oppression. Our whole family thinks the same way! Just ask yourself what you are doing to your country. If tommarrow India breaks up into 2 pieces again people like you who ignore their problems and mistakes will be responsible!

You seem to be trying to hide your face in every one of your posts.

People like me? Hey....I didn't ignore anyone's problems.
All my muslim friends seem to be leading perfectly cushy lives....maybe they all have secret problems that they are hiding from the "oppressive hindu".

You want a person out of 1% Hindus to be Prime Minister and President? Is that democracy? So thats what you would have done in India if Hindus made only 1% of the population. Well that proves that there is bias in India and there is too much about Hindu supremacy going on there. Well in Pakistan they can be everything else but the Prime Minister or the President, why don't you talk about that? As I said unlike India we don't need to put in figureheads like Kalam just as a show that we are secular and all groups in India are homogenous and equally treated while they are not. Man these ordinary, poor sikhs and christians who earn less than 20 Rupees a day are willing to join the army and saying that Pakistan has done a lot for them and they would like to be "shaheed" in its name. Do you have muslims in India that vow their allegiance to India like that? I have never seen muslims being uncontrollably loyal to India. Why don't you meet with some of my Hindu friends and present them with the constant bakwas that "Pakistan is not Secular" and their community is treated badly. Infact my Sikh friend from Pakistan even slapped an Indian in his bulging face in Dubai for telling him similar crap you are telling me right now!

Frankly..your post is not very coherent...still...

Oh don't even try and defend your constitution. It is steeped in doublespeak. Why can't a Hindu become PM? Is it necessary to worship allah in order to run a nation?

Btw...the Indian army has plenty of muslims...so chill...some muslim dude even got Param Vir Chakra in Kargil.

Kalam is more than a figurehead...he is a national hero and is loved by people from all over India. He is living proof of Indian secularism. Go visit his fansite to get a better idea of his popularity.

Your Sikh friend needs to learn self control....he's not setting a very good example for Pakistanis...

Yeah, yeah. India cannot be blamed for anything. Definately my family there only wants attention which is why they say muslims are not treated well! But obviously Pakistan can be blamed for everything including the Hydrabad bombings and Samjhauta Express! Salim is the first person I have met who has'nt admitted anything about the poor treatment of minorities. Maybe because he loathes Pakistanis so much. I am sure he talks about the same stuff when he is with other Indian muslims.

Yeah...the Indian police and agencies followed leads into B'desh and Pakistan. Bombings of this scale always have international involvement.
B'desh even arrested one of the suspects on some other charges and the Pakistani suspect was shot dead a couple of days back.
Pakistan is well known for providing training and funding to terrorists....not just in India . Please don't deny that....it just makes you look silly.

Well all the families I know are! My muslim friends also say that they have no political power or right. Truth is you simply do not want to integrate muslims into India. You want them to think of themselves as seperate which is exactly what they think because of your actions. Putting in figureheads and few muslims in high-ranking positions proves absolutely nothing! Secularism is about how each and every member of a minority group in India (or Pakistan) thinks about the treatment they recieve there! It is not about how a few muslims are at the top. We also have some very powerful Hindu businessmen in Pakistan and many hindus in Politics. Do we cry about it? Do we use that to say we are secular. No, because it does not matter who they are but it matters what they think! Their thoughts about their Nation will prove if the nation is truely secular and cares about them!

Me? I'd love to integrate them!! Maybe its you who doesn't want to integrate.
Pakistan cannot be secular if its constitution isn't secular. Its very simple.
Secularism isn't restricted to treating minorities well...its about the governing principles of a country.

Yeah...we all know how well Hindus are treated by the fanatic tribals in western Pakistan. I'll be surprised if all of them didn't convert out of fear already!!!

Pakistan has a pretty shoddy track record on treatment of minorities...I don't think we need to discuss that here.

 

[haviZsultan]

Yeah, yeah! The tiger is always right! It does no matter how muslims in India feel but what actually matters is what people like Bhangra and Marathaman say... Now obviously you are right and all those who are still escaping India due to the killing torture, rape and what not are wrong!

The constitution in Pakistan allows people to freely practice whatever relgion they want. Now anyone with common sense can figure out that the rest of the comments are not meant for minorities. Secularism is a principle of Islam. We were told by the prophet to let anyone who wants to practice his religion do so! That is why I say that secularism is also a part of the constitution!

“… you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state… in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state…”

The above statement from Jinnah was written into the constitution in the treatment of minorities Now if this does'nt convince you nothing will and you can continue practicing your fanaticism

Ist Sikh officer commissioned into Pak Army


ISLAMABAD: After a Hindu created history by briefly becoming the Chief Justice of Pakistan Supreme Court last year, a youth hailing from the birth place of Guru Nanak near Lahore has earned the distinction of being commissioned into the Army as the first Sikh officer.

Last year, Judge Bhagwan Das briefly became the Chief Justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court when the incumbent Iftakar Muhammad Choudhary went on a foreign tour.

Hercharan Singh, a Sikh youth hailing from Nankana Sahib, the birth place of Guru Nanak, on Saturday made the history by becoming the first Sikh to be commissioned into Pakistan Army.

The Pakistan Army had a few Christian officers in its ranks in the past.

Wearing a turban and sporting a beard, Singh marched to the military tunes at the Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul in North West Frontier Province (NWFP) where Prime Minister Shakat Aziz commissioned a large batch of cadets at a ceremony on Saturday.

Singh dressed in the military uniform shaking hands with Aziz after the ceremony was featured on the front pages of all Pakistani newspapers today.

"I am proud to be a Pakistani and of joining Pakistan Army. Being the first Sikh cadet, I wish and pray also to be the first one to be a 'shaheed' (martyr)," he said.

Singh being the eldest son, his mother was initially hesitant to send him for military training. "But now she is proud of me," he said smiling.

Cadet Singh has a young brother and regularly writes home about his daily routine.

He had joined the National College of Arts, but opted to serve as an officer in the Army, which in a military-dominated Pakistan offered a lucrative career and lifestyle.

Pakistan has a few dozen Sikh families scattered in Punjab and North West Frontier Provinces (NWFP). The Sikh and Hindus live in close proximity in these provinces.

These are more comments from the

 

[Marathaman]

if the 1st Sikh officer is proof of your secularism then...man....i'm impressed....and enough with the Jinnah quotes. Should I start quoting Nehru and Gandhi now? Even they had some impressive quotes you know...


Yeah..I"m happy practiciing my "fanaticism"..lol....you seem hell-bent to make me a "fanatic".

 

[haviZsultan]

Ever heard about Gulab Singh? These people are turning out to be even more loyal than muslims!

Lahore Embraces Sikh Traffic Cop

A few days ago a reader sent me a link to a BBC story about Dr. Gulab Singh Shaheen who has been inducted into the Pakistan Punjab traffic police and has become a celebrity on the roads of Lahore where he is quite literally stopping the traffic as Lahoris stop to embrace and greet him.

I felt real good about the continuation of this trend towards reintegrating minority communities who have been systematically sidelined in the past, and even more about the wonderful reception Lahore is giving to Sub-Inspector Gulab Singh. And, of course, my fascination with traffic cops is well known to ATP readers (here, here, here, here, and elsewhere).

However, I hesitated because I wanted an on the ground confirmation. That came today from the Lahore Metroblog (yes, in general, I have more respect for the three Pakistani Metroblogs than for BBC!).

(By the way, I am intrigued by the fact that he is a homeopathic doctor since we had earlier carried another post and video report on the Khalsa Dawakhana and Hakim Sarbir Singh; of course, Sikhs have a long history in what is now Pakistan - here and here - but I wonder whether and why this community has a particular focus on traditional medicine studies).

It turns out, in fact, that Daily Times had a wonderful story on him last week which I had missed earlier. Here is what it said:

“Since yesterday, I have been hearing different greetings, such as sat sari kaal, jo bolay so nihal and ballay ballay from car and bus drivers, motorcyclists and children. Lahoris are really very loving people and these are unforgettable moments for me,� remarked Dr Gulab Singh, the first-ever Sikh to be appointed traffic police warden in Pakistan, in an exclusive interview with Daily Times.

Gulab, the 25-year-old Sikh traffic warden, who hails from Nankana Sahib and now lives in Defence Housing Authority, said that joining the force as a sub-inspector was a dream come true for him. Pledging to do his duty wholeheartedly, he said that the loving welcome he had received from the public had added to his joy. He said he had joined his duty station on Wednesday, and by the second day, dozens of children had forced their parents to stop the car so that they could meet him. Singh is deputed on Alif Laam Meem Chowk on Aziz Bhatti Road in Cantt.

Gulab said he was born in Nankana district in January 1982. His father, Manna Singh, is a farmer and a father of seven�five boys and two girls. Gulab is the youngest of the siblings. Gulab completed his matriculation in Nankana district, graudation in Lahore and then received a doctorate in homeopathy from Bahawalpur. Gulab said he also operated a homeopathic clinic, which he might have to shut down because of his new and demanding posting.

Gulab said he applied for the sub-inspector post when announcements inviting applications appeared in newspapers, but did not tell his family. He informed them only after he was appointed, which translated into a delightful surprise for them, he added. Commenting on his training process, Gulab said, “The attitude of my fellow trainees and officers was very good towards me. Nobody ever forced me to do anything against my religious beliefs.� He said he had no problems wearing his kara (bangle), or keeping his kirpan (dagger) on him. He added that, as he was a vegetarian, green meals were arranged for him in the mess during the training period. “I am very grateful to my officers for this gesture,� Gulab said.

Gulab is multilingual and has command over Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Seraiki, and Sindhi. He added, “I can also speak English, but not very fluently.� Gulab also said that he was fond of Punjabi bhangra music and that his favourite singers are Abrar-ul-Haq, Harbajhan Maan and Waris Baig. In terms of the future, Gulab said, “I will do my duty honestly, work like a true and dutiful citizen, and dream of a corruption-free atmosphere.?

 

[haviZsultan]

if the 1st Sikh officer is proof of your secularism then...man....i'm impressed....and enough with the Jinnah quotes. Should I start quoting Nehru and Gandhi now? Even they had some impressive quotes you know...


Yeah..I"m happy practiciing my "fanaticism"..lol....you seem hell-bent to make me a "fanatic".

Point is this should prove that Pakistan is secular. The hindus, Sikhs and Christians here feel they are equal and think of themselves as Pakistanis and are loyal to Pakistan but the muslims in India are not. Any people who are well-treated and not treated with contempt or as second class citizens accept their country and grow attached to it and a bond forms. If you continue treating muslims in your country as such they will look at Pakistan as a safe-haven and will continue leaving India to Pakistan through the sufferers Witness and Nationalists. If you had treated these people as equals their condition would not have been so deplorable!

Everything is upon what the minority groups think. You can cry all you want and deny everything I say as it is habitual for indians to do so and blame others for their faults and mistakes but I have made my point and the truth is out! A country is not secular until the minorities within that country believe so!

 

[Marathaman]

Point is this should prove that Pakistan is secular. The hindus, Sikhs and Christians here feel they are equal and think of themselves as Pakistanis and are loyal to Pakistan but the muslims in India are not. Any people who are well-treated and not treated with contempt or as second class citizens accept their country and grow attached to it and a bond forms. If you continue treating muslims in your country as such they will look at Pakistan as a safe-haven and will continue leaving India to Pakistan through the sufferers Witness and Nationalists. If you had treated these people as equals their condition would not have been so deplorable!

Sorry buddy...you didn't prove that Pakistan is secular. It is like trying to prove that iron is copper. Not possible.

Indian muslims by and large and treated well enough. They need to become part of the mainstream and send their kids to school, if they want to prosper.

Everything is upon what the minority groups think. You can cry all you want and deny everything I say as it is habitual for indians to do so and blame others for their faults and mistakes but I have made my point and the truth is out! A country is not secular until the minorities within that country believe so!

Of course....isn't denial one of the many famous Indian inventions?
Damn...I fell down and hurt my knee....blasted Pakistanis...they are behind this!! Damn....I got a common cold.....blasted Pakistanis are behind this.

Trust me buddy..its not like this...the ISI is actively involved in terror acts. This isn't some convenient blame-game but the result of numerous police and intelligence investigations. Hell....Pakistan is famous for being terror-heaven. No surprises here.

Also, don't try to prove that Pakistan treats its minorities better....you just can't do it. Not with Pakistan's track record.

 

[voiceofaa]

How secular, really, is India?

i don't care

mast malang chaki tai
sada dil tang chaki tai

 

[Marathaman]

How secular, really, is India?

i don't care

Well then don't post.

 

[Shivakumar]

dimension, you are right that India is not secular. Everyday evil Hindus killing Muslims here. Minorities are treated bad. They are not allowed to get a job, participate in government and to vote. Hope, you are happy now.

 

[Marathaman]

dimension, you are right that India is not secular. Everyday evil Hindus killing Muslims here. Minorities are treated bad. They are not allowed to get a job, participate in government and to vote. Hope, you are happy now.

No..he isn't happy yet. First admit that pakistan is secularism heaven. Then he will be happy.

 

[haviZsultan]

Sorry buddy...you didn't prove that Pakistan is secular. It is like trying to prove that iron is copper. Not possible.

Indian muslims by and large and treated well enough. They need to become part of the mainstream and send their kids to school, if they want to prosper.

Woah, i'd say the same about India... anyway whats the point, you guys won't really change so whats the point in arguing... please continue ignoring and denying your mistakes. We happily accept the people that are shifting from India!

Of course....isn't denial one of the many famous Indian inventions?
Damn...I fell down and hurt my knee....blasted Pakistanis...they are behind this!! Damn....I got a common cold.....blasted Pakistanis are behind this.

True, the one who invented it should be the father of all India. Oh and how did you forget that the increase in animal attacks in India are because ISI gave the animals a special drug which makes them hostile to everyone (I've been wondering if the same happened with you guys, are you drugged? Are drugs the cause of your fanatical approach?)... how did you forget that we were responsible for the monsoons in Lucknow by use of our weather machine... We were also responsible for spreading diseases in India such as the Dengue fever, SARS and Bird Flu. We simply sent any Pakistani with these diseases to India

However I want to ask you a very important question about all this. What can India do to change it? What will you do if we continue?

Trust me buddy..its not like this...the ISI is actively involved in terror acts. This isn't some convenient blame-game but the result of numerous police and intelligence investigations. Hell....Pakistan is famous for being terror-heaven. No surprises here.

Ya, ya... You see, you are the guests here so we tend to agree with you no matter how idiotic the theories and opinions you present are... Ya, ya if you say so. Okay if it makes you happy the ISI is responsible.

Thats the angry Indian spirit I am talking about! Hrrr... because we lost Pakistan, Pakistan is responsible for everything that goes wrong in India. You remind me of wwe, you know the great Khali guy... "Tujhey chorun ga nahin"

Also, don't try to prove that Pakistan treats its minorities better....you just can't do it. Not with Pakistan's track record.

Well many sikhs migrated to Pakistan too and some still do. Why don't you actually present them with this rabble and see their reaction! If these people shifted to Pakistan along with many Christians, Bhudists and Zoroastrians then obviously they believed that Pakistan would be a secular nation where they were respected. Many people from minorities just stayed in Pakistan during time of Partition rather than move to India, would such a reaction be possible if they believed that Pakistan would not be secular. As I said talk to people from the minorities and only then will you have the right to call Pakistan "unsecular". I have full confidence that these people are living in Pakistan because they think it is indeed secular!

 

[Marathaman]

Dammit...all rite Dimension...you win...I cannot counter your brilliant debating skills...India is just a bunch of imperialist fascist hindus hell-bent on dominating other religions and countries.
Their favourite pastime is muslim-hunting where all the hindus of the village attack the nearest muslim for fun and hang him upside down from a sacred peepal tree.
India is a fascist dictatorship that has muslim-killing as state policy. Pakistan is a secular heaven where all minorities are bathed in milk for free (picture a bunch of smiling sikhs hugging a group of laughing hindus with pink flowers falling from the sky...Pakistani flag fluttering in the distance...).

There...I said it...I have just told you the truth that i tried my best to hide....but Dimension, thanks to your cleverness I am forced to reveal it.

 

[haviZsultan]

Dammit...all rite Dimension...you win...I cannot counter your brilliant debating skills...India is just a bunch of imperialist fascist hindus hell-bent on dominating other religions and countries.
Their favourite pastime is muslim-hunting where all the hindus of the village attack the nearest muslim for fun and hang him upside down from a tree.
India is a fascist dictatorship that has muslim-killing as state policy. Pakistan is a secular heaven where all minorities are bathed in milk for free (picture a bunch of smiling sikhs hugging a group of laughing hindus with pink flowers falling from the sky...Pakistani flag fluttering in the distance...).

There...I said it...I have just told you the truth that i tried my best to hide....but Dimension, thanks to your cleverness I am forced to reveal it.

Thank you very much! You see, its actually my perfection that I have come to rely on... Well whats new, I always knew I was right! Jus Kidding!

Well whats the point discussing this anyway... i dun think any of us can win the other over to our point of view. Truth is we simply haven't progressed anywhere. I don't understand how you people in India can be so downright cold. Why do you deny that so many mussallmans are unhappy in India? Why do you deny that there is discrimination in India against muslims even though evry Indian muslim knows it!

 

[Marathaman]

Thank you very much! You see, its actually my perfection that I have come to rely on... Well whats new, I always knew I was right! Jus Kidding!

Well whats the point discussing this anyway... i dun think any of us can win the other over to our point of view. Truth is we simply haven't progressed anywhere. I don't understand how you people in India can be so downright cold. Why do you deny that so many mussallmans are unhappy in India? Why do you deny that there is discrimination in India against muslims even though evry Indian muslim knows it!

Wat? When did I deny that there is discrimination? Didn't I deny my personal involvement in all the murders and riots that go on?

To sum up my point of view....India is secular by law (though not very good in practice) and Pakistan isn't even trying to be secular....therefore there is no real comparison in this regard.

I also said that it would help to reduce some of the prejudice against muslims if they left their ghettos and got an education instead of flocking to the local madarassa...stopped multiplying like rabbits...and joined the Indian middle class.

If you are not satisfied with this, please refer to my earlier post where I admit how evil hindus are and how pakistani minorities are bathed in free milk.

 

[haviZsultan]

Wat? When did I deny that there is discrimination? Didn't I deny my personal involvement in all the murders and riots that go on?

To sum up my point of view....India is secular by law (though not very good in practice) and Pakistan isn't even trying to be secular....therefore there is no real comparison in this regard.

I also said that it would help to reduce some of the prejudice against muslims if they left their ghettos and got an education instead of flocking to the local madarassa...stopped multiplying like rabbits...and joined the Indian middle class.

If you are not satisfied with this, please refer to my earlier post where I admit how evil hindus are and how pakistani minorities are bathed in free milk.

I wanna cry! Someday you will be seeing me pulling my hair and screaming. Tell me something. Have you signed a contract saying that you will deny everything that I say! Now if I start saying that Pakistan is not secular will you start saying the opposite?
How many people have you driven mad till now? Its like i'm talking to a brick wall, here! You remind me of those brainwashed freaks that will do anything just to get their way... sort of like Salims so-called "street agitation attitude"

Do they have the opportunities to join the middle-class? I dunno what you are talking about. I know almost no muslim in India that goes to Madrassas... i dunno where you guys get that from... it must be the ones who can't really afford your schools. Well my family in India believes that the education system is based on religion in India too which obviously you will deny as it does'nt really matter to you what minorities say. You people just want to ignore them rather than trying to understand why they feel the way they do!

I give up, you know more about Pakistan and about how minorities are treated here than any Pakistani. It does not matter what people from those communities say but what really matters is what YOU say... now obviously an Indian Hindus views are 10 times as important and valuable as a muslims. So you definately know better. You know that Pakistan is not a secular nation as hindus are hung on poles and tortured for hours there and there are government orders there to hunt down each and every Hindu found in that nation and rape all the women and throw all the kids in the oceon! However India on the other hand is the most secular nation in the world as minorities in India are treated with utter respect. In Kashmir the only muslim dominated region in India for example the treatment of muslims is so great that Kashmiris are considered upper-class citizens. The soldiers sometimes even bow down and kiss the hands of Kashmiris just to show respect for them. Today Muslims are the richest and are known as the royalty of India. Without the great treatment it would not be possible for muslims to be the Kings of India. Now are you happy?