How ‘Islamist’ is the AKP?

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

My dear brother Muhammad-Bin-Qasim,
First of all there were no calipha because something that goes from father to son is not the way to choose a calipha. Calipha is a leadership that choosen by the 3ulamaa. So this show us that there was no really a calipha but because the ottomans fighted also in name of allah they got this title. Second point is what is the reason of a calipha that cant call the ummah to jihad?? Or what is the reason of a calipha if the ummah dont listen to him and fight agains islam for their own worlds benefits? When the sultan, also the calipha tought they were defeated they planned to accept the conditions that de kuffaar gave(sevr) otherwise they warned us to destroy our nation. Ataturk was extremly agains this and with full imaan(or independency or death) we fought, we fought and we won.

But the problem is the ummah brother. Even de prohpet said, my ummah will love this world so much they will be afraid to die. So even today when there is a calipha he cant do anything.. But if the ummah want a calipha nobody holds them.. Why they dont choose one?

Allahu a3lem.

Walaikum Assalam...

There are a few points to understand... As you mentioned Caliphate should not be hereditary... This is well known... I want all readers to consider this now... Sometimes certain things happen that even though most people do not want it, they get stuck with it... One of the best Caliphs Umar Bin Abdul Aziz Rahamullah... He used to like a certain man and it is said that he wanted him to be Caliph after him but because of the way Ummayad family had become influential, he did not make him his successor... Similarly Imam Hussain RA knew that Ameer Mawviyah was engaged in nepotism but he restrained himself not to aggress against the leader because he did not want bloodshed and is said that he used to say that hopefully after Mawviyah is gone, some good will be restored to the institution of ruling... Similarly, we as Muslims want so desperately to have good leadership, but we are stuck with fat sheikhs and Zardaris of our time... The dynastic form that the Caliphate took has to be understood in this context... it would still be considered a Caliphate as long as it symbolized leadership of the Muslim world... this is very important to understand...

A friend used to give a good example to this... He said that even though we know that a woman has a choice to select her husband, if the father of the woman throws his headgear (pagri) in the feet of his daughter and ask her to marry a man that she does not want to marry... even though the woman did not choose it, the marriage contract would still be valid and one cannot say that the couple is committing a sin...

Also most importantly, you mentioned Ulema... The fact is that Ottoman Sultans used to get their contract of leadership at the hand of the top Ulema of their times i.e Sheikh ul Islam!!!

Furthermore... let this be said that the Turks loved and respected the Sultans at all times, even till the end... It was a huge failure of the Ummah however that they saw the abolishing of the Caliphate happening and did not put up effective resistance against it... Partly the reason was Kemal's huge influence amongst Turks...

Why dont we select a Caliph? We are soon going to do that inshaAllah...

All roads are now pointing in that direction... We shall be truly one as a single body once again... inshaAllah

 

[Jigs]

The issue is not Ataturk.Actually i dont care about a dead man.I care about the present and the future.M.Kemal made mistakes such as caliphate issue because he wasnt good with religions,he thought religions prevent nations to develop.But as i said it is past,i care about the future, and his pseudo-ideology is out of date.And saying "his ideology is beyond centuries" is a bit out of objectivity.The biggest follower of his ideology is Kenan Evren.Now everyone blames him.Why?Kenan Evren followed Ataturks principles.He thought he was doing a good thing.

@trmhmt
look what i said about odatv :"their capacity only allows them to analyse things as fetullahçı vs We(goodies)."

Political religion does stop nations from developing. You want proof take a look at every single islamic nation right now. Iran(post Shah),Saudi Arabia,Pakistan (Zia era)

This is not something that is debatable when the proof is right there.

I like your part about not caring for a dead man. You know the one that saved the Turkish people. Do you not understand how on edge we were after the ottoman empire ? We got occupied and our land taken up by half the world and who exactly was it that defeated and drove these people out ?


Do they not teach Turkish history in classrooms there anymore or something ?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Most anti-mustafa kemal writings are made by foreign powers.
I call this a lie because India joined the ranks of the British and fought agains us. And than u think that India will send after that a message to Kemal with request to become the calipha? I dont think so lol..

Dear Killuminati...

This is actually true... There was a movement in the Indian subcontinent by the name of Khilafat Movement... This delegation was sent by the leaders of this movement...

The British occupying India did not mean that they controlled the thoughts of Muslims... Muslims were the fiercest in resistance against the British Empire all over the world, including India...

An interesting analysis actually suggests that Kemal abolished the Caliphate because the British pressured him to do so after they saw the Khilafat Movement gaining strength in the subcontinent... because before this Kemal had already made Caliph only symbolic by finishing the Sultanate in 1922...

btw... Gandhi Jee also supported Khilafat Movement... for our Indian readers...

 

[TrMhMt]

@Ovarel

typing "lol" to every comment of yourself is proving that you have lack knowledge .... excuses are not allowed if you have strong believing and supporting about an idea !!! out of date, not enough for this century blaahhh blllaaahhh ridiculous ...

and one more thing, do not claim something about a person who is passed away long time ago !!!

Dude, this conversation is over !!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Political religion does stop nations from developing. You want proof take a look at every single islamic nation right now. Iran(post Shah),Saudi Arabia,Pakistan (Zia era)

This is not something that is debatable when the proof is right there.

I like your part about not caring for a dead man. You know the one that saved the Turkish people. Do you not understand how on edge we were after the ottoman empire ? We got occupied and our land taken up by half the world and who exactly was it that defeated and drove these people out ?


Do they not teach Turkish history in classrooms there anymore or something ?

Dear Jigs

Do explain then why was the Muslim civilization at the top of all science and development for most of its time under the Caliphate?

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions

 

[ovarel]

Political religion does stop nations from developing. You want proof take a look at every single islamic nation right now. Iran(post Shah),Saudi Arabia,Pakistan (Zia era)

This is not something that is debatable when the proof is right there.

I like your part about not caring for a dead man. You know the one that saved the Turkish people. Do you not understand how on edge we were after the ottoman empire ? We got occupied and our land taken up by half the world and who exactly was it that defeated and drove these people out ?


Do they not teach Turkish history in classrooms there anymore or something ?

pfff of course i used to get effected by the kemalist indoctrination.i know history thats why i am talking this way.you can believe in the fairytales.half of the world occupied us,then ataturk saved us LOL.
this is not the issue,learn history please.

BTW ataturks stance wasnot only about political islam,he also wasnt ok with religions generally.he said "sometimes i want all the religions to go under the ground"

As i said i dont care about his views about religions,he didnt have to be a muslim.All thye problem is his followers cant admit the fact that the dictators era is over.Some of you guys also says that he wasnt a dictator

 

[ovarel]

@Ovarel

typing "lol" to every comment of yourself is proving that you have lack knowledge .... excuses are not allowed if you have strong believing and supporting about an idea !!! out of date, not enough for this century blaahhh blllaaahhh ridiculous ...

and one more think, do not claim something about a person who is passed away long time ago !!!

Dude, this conversation is over !!!

you are giving me no choice but laughing

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I say lets start talking about the future... I say we should unite as a single Islamic state once again... Who is with me??

 

[TrMhMt]

you are giving me no choice but laughing

i am not surprised .... This behavior is ignorant people's behavior !!!

Have a goood sleep to you !!!

 

[Jigs]

Dear Jigs

Do explain then why was the Muslim civilization at the top of all science and development for most of its time under the Caliphate?

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions

Nice 1001 invetions over a 1,000 year period. Lets come back to the present and maybe you can explain to me why Turkey and Indeosenia are the two most developed muslim nations and both have secular governments. Maybe you could explain why turkey seems to have hit 1 trillion dollar GDP but has almost no oil ?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Nice 1001 invetions over a 1,000 year period. Lets come back to the present and maybe you can explain to me why Turkey and Indeosenia are the two most developed muslim nations and both have secular governments. Maybe you could explain why turkey seems to have hit 1 trillion dollar GDP but has almost no oil ?

Because even though they are secular, they are doing certain things that are allowed and encouraged in Islam... like Business!!!

BTW... those 1001 inventions are just the tip of the iceberg...

My point was just to say that I disagree with the idea that Islam will prevent a civilization from flourishing... The examples you give of Iran and Saudis are not Islamic for more than obvious reasons... so its not fair to equate them with Islam

 

[Jigs]

pfff of course i used to get effected by the kemalist indoctrination.i know history thats why i am talking this way.you can believe in the fairytales.half of the world occupied us,then ataturk saved us LOL.
this is not the issue,learn history please.

BTW ataturks stance wasnot only about political islam,he also wasnt ok with religions generally.he said "sometimes i want all the religions to go under the ground"As i said i dont care about his views about religions,he didnt have to be a muslim.All thye problem is his followers cant admit the fact that the dictators era is over.Some of you guys also says that he wasnt a dictator

That is quite understandable considering religion has caused most wars in this world. Like the one going on right now. Not to mention religious extremism is at a all time high. Tell me if you know so much about history who exactly was it that turned this

Into the place you now live in.

PS here is the full quote

"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience,. provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men."

That last part is a problem that still goes on today in the muslim world. You should look into the pakistani social thread on this forum for a bunch of examples.

 

[ovarel]

The topic isnt about ataturk,i didnt want to talk off-topic but since ataturk is someones god,they always put him in all discussions.

Dont you support secularism guys?

Put your god away from politics

 

[Jigs]

Because even though they are secular, they are doing certain things that are allowed and encouraged in Islam... like Business!!!

BTW... those 1001 inventions are just the tip of the iceberg...

My point was just to say that I disagree with the idea that Islam will prevent a civilization from flourishing... The examples you give of Iran and Saudis are not Islamic for more than obvious reasons... so its not fair to equate them with Islam

They seem to think it is quite islamic. Especially the Saudis with their Wahabi agenda. Iran is quite good a massing a large number of people in religiously motivated rallies too. See stuff like this is what Ataturk hated. He couldnt stand the fact that people would take up religion for their own benefit. He talked about it alot.

Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to Islam. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion.

Even in 2010 lots of islamic states or politicians do this. Especially those uneducated imams that operate in some of these countries. The ones offering rewards to people for killing each other in the name of religion.

 

[Jigs]

The topic isnt about ataturk,i didnt want to talk off-topic but since ataturk is someones god,they always put him in all discussions.

Dont you support secularism guys?

Put your god away from politics

But but i thought you were a history buff and wanted to discuss these things. Since you seem to know oh so much maybe you could care to tell me more about that dead man you didnt care much about.