How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[Myth_buster_1]

Desiman if you are man enough I hope you have kept your words.

The MBB family of helicopters includes an Indian relative. In 1984, Hindustan Aerospace Limited (HAL) of India signed a contract with MBB for development of what was then designated the "Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)", leading to first test of a nonflying machine in April 1991, and initial flight of the first of five flying prototypes on 30 August 1992.

MBB/EC Families

BK-117


EC-145


Dhruv

 

[desiman]

And Indians have yet to prove their technical input in Dhruv. Before trying to be corny I advise you to re read my post without bursting in flames. I said Indian input in Shakti engine is 10% which is stated by Turbomeca officials.

you yourself havent proved anything and your telling other to prove to you lol what a joke. you still havent answered anything and when i asked you question you wanted time, why because you have no idea where to copy paste the answer from. Kid give up, your act has been busted, first you said that the structure is not Indian, then you went back on that and said that there is 15% Indian contribution etc etc You have changed your words so many times and then you randomly find pics of helicopters that look the the Dhruv and then come to a new stance that the Dhruv was copied from that. You seriously have no idea what yous saying and its clear you have lost sight of your own argument. Typical troll and nothing else. You are a prime example of a brainwashed individual.

 

[desiman]

Desiman if you are man enough I hope you have kept your words.



MBB/EC Families

BK-117


EC-145


Dhruv

read the article and tell me what the term " Assistance" means.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

My job as a purchaser give me a lot of free time so i can spend time spanking kids like you on PDF lol dont worry about my time, worry about your senseless post.

Are you sure you dont spank yourself after getting a reality check? Talk about senseless posts Desiman wins the tittle hands down.
Enjoy self spanking but dont hurt yourself too much.

 

[desiman]

The MBB family of helicopters includes an Indian relative. In 1984, Hindustan Aerospace Limited (HAL) of India signed a contract with MBB for development of what was then designated the "Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)", leading to first test of a nonflying machine in April 1991, and initial flight of the first of five flying prototypes on 30 August 1992. The five prototypes included two engineering validation prototypes, plus one prototype each of army-air force, navy, and civil versions. The production machine was to be given the name of "Dhruv (Polaris / Pole Star)".

please go search what an " engineering validation prototype" is and then come back, seriously the kids here.

 

[desiman]

The 206L4 Longranger IV. - This is the helicopter that my company makes, its origins are from the MBB and European counterparts, now tell me can be call this a US indigenous product or not ?

Evolved from the legendary 206B-3, the LongRangerIV is a remarkable combination of power, room and range. Innovative doors and a spacious cabin make the LongRangerIV ideal for corporate, EMT, utility or law enforcement. And a better power margin means you’re flying higher and further. Yes, the legend has evolved. Now it’s your turn.

206L-4 Highlights
The patented Nodal Beam suspension system for the smoothest ride available and club passenger seating for face-to-face conversation.

Wide opening doors and a roomy cabin ideal for cargo hauling and law enforcement missions.

A simple high inertia two-bladed rotor system for superior safety and excellent autorotation characteristics.

An overall best value offering, this simple and durable design which incorporates a powerful and reliable 650 horsepower engine makes the 206L-4 the best 7-place light helicopter available for the money.
Inside and out, the LongRangerIV represents leading edge design. Whether you're a CEO who wants to get business done in the air, or an EMT who wants to save lives, the LongRangerIV can help you succeed. It offers a spacious and flexible cabin, a high visibility cockpit, and a high performance RollsRoyce engine with power to spare, even in hot weather. You name the time and the place. The LongRangerIV is ready to take you there.

http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en/aircraft/commercial/bell206L-4.cfm

 

[Myth_buster_1]

ok prove it to me then we will talk, and your BK-117 comparison is a joke. We make the Bell Helicopter at our place, even it looks like the Dhruv, next your going to say that the Bell Helicopter is not made my Textron also lol waiting for your " credible " post.

What do you mean "we make the bell"? Pakistan was also given contract to assemble Boing 777 parts in Kamra.
Now you have made me worried. This thread is starting to have side effects in you, no wonder the amount of senseless posts you are generating.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The 206L4 Longranger IV. - This is the helicopter that my company makes, its origins are from the MBB and European counterparts, now tell me can be call this a US indigenous product or not ?

Evolved from the legendary 206B-3, the LongRangerIV is a remarkable combination of power, room and range. Innovative doors and a spacious cabin make the LongRangerIV ideal for corporate, EMT, utility or law enforcement. And a better power margin means you’re flying higher and further. Yes, the legend has evolved. Now it’s your turn.

206L-4 Highlights
The patented Nodal Beam suspension system for the smoothest ride available and club passenger seating for face-to-face conversation.

Wide opening doors and a roomy cabin ideal for cargo hauling and law enforcement missions.

A simple high inertia two-bladed rotor system for superior safety and excellent autorotation characteristics.

An overall best value offering, this simple and durable design which incorporates a powerful and reliable 650 horsepower engine makes the 206L-4 the best 7-place light helicopter available for the money.
Inside and out, the LongRangerIV represents leading edge design. Whether you're a CEO who wants to get business done in the air, or an EMT who wants to save lives, the LongRangerIV can help you succeed. It offers a spacious and flexible cabin, a high visibility cockpit, and a high performance RollsRoyce engine with power to spare, even in hot weather. You name the time and the place. The LongRangerIV is ready to take you there.

Bell Helicopter - The 206L4

Seriously you have gone totally insane. your analogies of "indigenous technologies" is not any better then cakes and pies few indians have posted here and now My company WE make the bell. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

India is only assembling Bell LongRangerIV for themself if i am not wrong in case of Dhruv that the R&D is done by foreigners not Indians. The avionics hydraulics display systems etc are all non indian technologies.

 

[desiman]

If yow know anything about the aviation industry, a good percentage of the helicopters share lots of specs. As the amount of power and rotar blade speed is limited to a point, most helicopter making companies collaborate in R & D to allow for the whole industry to grow. Additional add-ons and parts differ from each version but the very basic idea behind a helicopter remains the same. All helicopters made in Canada follow a the Canadian aviation regulations and are therefore quite similar in make.

Canadian Aviation Regulations - Part VII, Standard 724 - Helicopters - Regulations - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada

HAL’s Dhruv originates from the MBB series but is only a distant relative of the series with many indigenous Indian design and technology on it such as the use of a higher rotar speed and the larger room which calls for a total change in the structure. As quoted in your own link, the Dhruv weighs much more than the avg MBB series mainly because of the heavy changes HAL did on it. Its still very much an Indian product with its roots in Europe. Its like saying every plane today is made by the Wright brothers. Really go learn things before you say anything.

 

[desiman]

Seriously you have gone totally insane. your analogies of "indigenous technologies" is not any better then cakes and pies few indians have posted here and now My company WE make the bell. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

India is only assembling Bell LongRangerIV for themself if i am not wrong in case of Dhruv that the R&D is done by foreigners not Indians. The avionics hydraulics display systems etc are all non indian technologies.

when did i say that the bell helicopter is Indian ???? stop putting words into my mouth. My point is that the Bell Helicopter is heavily influenced by European design but its still a US product, the same analogy applies to HAL.

 

[desiman]

What do you mean "we make the bell"? Pakistan was also given contract to assemble Boing 777 parts in Kamra.
Now you have made me worried. This thread is starting to have side effects in you, no wonder the amount of senseless posts you are generating.

read my post , i dont live in India and i work for Textron who is the original maker of the Bell Helicopter, it shows that you dont even bother reading post before replying.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

with many indigenous Indian design and technology

Then kindly share those "indigenous" indian technologies and designs.
Like i have proven earlier which you can not comprehend due to state of denial, the design of dhruv and technologies are more foreigners then Indian. Without this Dhruv does not exists.

At least 29 companies in nine countries across four continents have been involved with the development, licensed production or supply of components or munitions for the ALH. Ten of these companies are based in six EU Member States (Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Sweden and the UK). Other companies involved include a number based in Israel and the USA. Since its inception, the ALH has been a collaborative effort between the German company Messerschmitt-Bölkow Blohm (now Eurocopter Deutschland) and HAL:

 

[Myth_buster_1]

when did i say that the bell helicopter is Indian ???? stop putting words into my mouth. My point is that the Bell Helicopter is heavily influenced by European design but its still a US product, the same analogy applies to HAL.

I can not comment much on Bell but the difference is. essentially almost everything in Dhruv is non-indian technologies.

 

[ashisbutt]

"How do you define indigenous?"

This was the question asked.


Mod Edit: Keep the discussion to the topic, no need to show smartness, the discussion is about Dhurv, not JF-17 (which by the way is not indigenous)

 

[EyelessInGaza]

The term "indigenous" is a very vague one...

Thanks for the reply.

Understand, that I am neither for nor against; my purpose is to learn something from this discussion.

I understand something of the concept of integrating various parts of to make a machine; I understand how difficult it is. I also understand that aircraft often use technology from round the globe. So I get (or think I do) what you are saying.

You are saying that the copter is indigenous because:

All the above mentioned products such as the Dhruv, LCA, LCH are totally indigenous mainly because their initial specs, BOM's and drawing were done in India.

I could go along with that.

However, the dichotomy comes because Growler (as I understand him, could be wrong) is saying that the bulk of the key components of Dhruv are foreign sourced and therefore the final product is not indigenous.

On the other hand your response is:

Parts that were later added on were because of what i said earlier, international procurement and that is a production decision not a design one. Growlers arguments are flawed because he fails to acknowledge that all the initial ground work was done by India. Parts can be bought from anywhere

So I think I see where the two of you differ.

My strict opinion would be that indigenisation really happens when we have the capability to manufacture key elements of a product in-house, i.e. we have the IP. As for the outsourced elements, we should have some ability, in case of pressure from suppliers (in a war for example), to maybe substitute some other parts with some QC (not 100% but say close to 70% quality).

I do not know what the key elements are in the case of the Dhruv.

Obviously I do not have enough knowledge of the subject to make an authoritative comment. But as you can see that has not prevented me from making it .

Finally, I repeat - I do not take away from HAL's achievements in this regard; these are truly outstanding.