How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[desiman]

All great points but I still have a few questions.

Yes, a lot of projects are based on collaboration, especially defence projects.

However, my question , based on what Growler has written, are:

What in the aircraft is indigenous, i.e. made in India, and what is the 'degree of difficulty' of that Indian contribution? Was it design? Or the frame?

Just curious, because Growler has a point, IMO.

Having said that, I would disagree with Growler when he seems to imply that putting a sustainable, replicable platform like the Dhruv into manufacturing (with contributions from other countries) is like putting together a plate of mithai.

From what I know, something like this is a very difficult thing to do, especially for aircraft, and requires considerable skills. It is an achievement.

The term "indigenous" is a very vague one. What is indigenous ? Mainly as per military standards a product can be called indigenous when the primary idea and initial outlay originates at the primary entity. Such as the initial structural drawings, BOM's or design requirements. A product can be termed indigenous when the basic necessities to make a product originate at the start. All the above mentioned products such as the Dhruv, LCA, LCH are totally indigenous mainly because their initial specs, BOM's and drawing were done in India. Parts that were later added on were because of what i said earlier, international procurement and that is a production decision not a design one. Growlers arguments are flawed because he fails to acknowledge that all the initial ground work was done by India. Parts can be bought from anywhere but they have to be based on the BOM's the engineers issue and here the engineers are 100% Indian. My.Growler has no experience in military equipment production therefore one can expect such arguments from him.

 

[desiman]

What you have mentioned about "international arms procurement" is not even the issue but the trollers like you who think Dhruv is as indigenous as any other western product such as F-22 or Gripen.
I am anxiously waiting to know how much technology F-22 uses of other origin that Indians brag about. As for Dhruv. I will still state the fact that technology used in Dhruv is not Indian at all but imported technologies assembled or bought of the self and integrated in India.
Their is no problem with Dhruv being a imported technology but when Indians brag about Dhruv being "Indigenous" technology its just plain wrong and false statements.

Again you have easily skipped answering even one question properly and have come down to attacking me personally and calling me a troll for no reason. I do not want to waste more time on you trying to show you that parts on the F-22 are bought from all over the world. You have failed to understand even one point from my post and the fact is that the Dhruv is totally indigenous, you like it or not. I cant blame you for your kiddish post because frankly you have 0 experience in this industry and i cannot argue with someone who does not know anything. You did the same on other threads also where you failed to answer any questions and came down to personal attacks and its the same here. And then Indians get called trolls, its obvious who the trolls is here.

 

[toxic_pus]

Indians have a history of proliferating Space and Civil nuclear technolgoies to military use. I will open a new thread for you to discuss but this is not the right thread to talk about.

Regardless of literary meaning, political connotation of 'proliferation' is flow of technology, knowledge, material, equipment and other necessary strategic goods, from a 'possessor' state to a 'non-possessor' state. In a nutshell, the flow has to be cross-boundary.

Problem with you is that you like to drop a few heavy words every now and then, without fully comprehending their contextual connotation. Then when you get called on it, you either pretend that you can't see or ridiculously shift your posts, hoping no one will notice.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Again you have easily skipped answering even one question properly and have come down to attacking me personally and calling me a troll for no reason. I do not want to waste more time on you trying to show you that parts on the F-22 are bought from all over the world. You have failed to understand even one point from my post and the fact is that the Dhruv is totally indigenous, you like it or not. I cant blame you for your kiddish post because frankly you have 0 experience in this industry and i cannot argue with someone who does not know anything. You did the same on other threads also where you failed to answer any questions and came down to personal attacks and its the same here. And then Indians get called trolls, its obvious who the trolls is here.

Dont act so innocent. It is you who has been avoiding all of my questions all along and then you come up with off topic irrelevant to the topic questions and expect me to answer every single of them. And then you or your fellow indian members come up with cake, pie etc analogies and then you with comparing F-22 American indigenous technical input with Indian Dhruv which essentially has almost close to 5% of input only.
You do not know squat about anything because only a insane person would come up with "F-22 is using parts from all over the world."
And lol look at you man. You are acting like a innocent kid who has done nothing wrong. listen to me. It wasnt me who started this thread with "Desiman" is a troll. Its you who call other members trolls because they are giving you a reality check and then when they call you back the same names because you start posting ridiculous irrelevant off topic posts you then just start moaning and acting innocent.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

The term "indigenous" is a very vague one. What is indigenous ? Mainly as per military standards a product can be called indigenous when the primary idea and initial outlay originates at the primary entity. Such as the initial structural drawings, BOM's or design requirements. A product can be termed indigenous when the basic necessities to make a product originate at the start. All the above mentioned products such as the Dhruv, LCA, LCH are totally indigenous mainly because their initial specs, BOM's and drawing were done in India. Parts that were later added on were because of what i said earlier, international procurement and that is a production decision not a design one. Growlers arguments are flawed because he fails to acknowledge that all the initial ground work was done by India. Parts can be bought from anywhere but they have to be based on the BOM's the engineers issue and here the engineers are 100% Indian. My.Growler has no experience in military equipment production therefore one can expect such arguments from him.

That is totally wrong. Did you even try reading what I have provided earlier on? "initial structural drawings, BOM's or design requirements" were mostly done for India by multiple nations.
What you have define above can only suite your ego but in reality Dhruv is not indian "indigenous" product other then foreigner technologies R&D designs complied together.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Growler, I don't have to read any of your posts as long as you claim your sources are sacrosanct but every other perspective that does not suit your opinion being considered unreliable.

Your statistics of 5 % Indian contribution that at times creep up to 10% is amusing to say the least. Where do these numbers come from ? Looks like statistics are made on the spot.

About your suggestion to read pages 1to3, I know more about Dhruv development that you know. I have spent more time in HAL than the amount of time you have spent on this forum.

Taking things out of context are we? India has only 10% input in engine development while avionics mission computer hydraulics etc were all provided to india by multi national companies off the shelf. That 10% does not mean Indians entire input in actual helicopter.
So we have two indian members claiming to have worked for HAL, I do not know what you guys did their because of your knowledge it seems you guys had no idea of foreigner involvement in the project. Without them it does not exists.

 

[Raghu]

Dhruv/ALH is called indigenous because its being built in India by an Indian company thats not a licensed product.

If Any one who want to buy Dhruv/ALH ,they have to it from its manufacturer HAL . After the procurement ,any further issue of crew training ,supply of spare parts ,future maintains and product defect liability are also the responsibility of HAL and must be done under its supervision.

U may not like it or not and may even go on talking about its foreign systems onboard and technologies it incorporates,but it cant change the simple fact its an Indian company HAL that manufactures it and sells it around making it indigenous to india.

 

[Haanzo]

dhruv is as indegenious as gripen is indegenious to sweden

 

[manojb]

Neighbors envy indias pride alh is old story now lets move on to new indigineous marvel lch

 

[Myth_buster_1]

dhruv is as indegenious as gripen is indegenious to sweden

This sounds more like a ego satisfaction remark then actual reality.
Perhaps you can show some technical contrition of India in Dhruv project. Dhruv from inside out is foreigner technology all the way.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dhruv/ALH is called indigenous because its being built in India by an Indian company thats not a licensed product.
If Any one who want to buy Dhruv/ALH ,they have to it from its manufacturer HAL . After the procurement ,any further issue of crew training ,supply of spare parts ,future maintains and product defect liability are also the responsibility of HAL and must be done under its supervision.
U may not like it or not and may even go on talking about its foreign systems onboard and technologies it incorporates,but it cant change the simple fact its an Indian company HAL that manufactures it and sells it around making it indigenous to india.

I am only talking about Indian technical indigenous contribution in Dhruv. Did India develop avionics, display systems, engine, hydraulics etc all on its own? Indians brag about Sahkti engine as Indian but actually Indians have hardly 10% of contribution in the engine. I do not want to drag Pakistan into this and divert the thread into Pak vs Ind thing but as a matter of fact, even Pakistan has export rights on these two projects and will be made in pakistan. But it does not mean these two projects are Indigenous with Pakistan technologies and same is true about Dhruv LCA etc. They are foreigner TOT and assembled at home with some export rights.
If you think Indigenous technology is what you buy from foreigners, assemble it at home and export it is not it your own technology.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Neighbors envy indias pride alh is old story now lets move on to new indigineous marvel lch

When was the last time India made something all on its own without foreigner technologies? LCH uses almost entire foreigner package from Dhruv.

 

[desiman]

That is totally wrong. Did you even try reading what I have provided earlier on? "initial structural drawings, BOM's or design requirements" were mostly done for India by multiple nations.
What you have define above can only suite your ego but in reality Dhruv is not indian "indigenous" product other then foreigner technologies R&D designs complied together.

are you joking with me Kid, drawings were done outside India ?????? Do you even know what a BOM is ??? sorry i have no time to argue with kids, go back to sucking your thumb and crying.

 

[desiman]

Dont act so innocent. It is you who has been avoiding all of my questions all along and then you come up with off topic irrelevant to the topic questions and expect me to answer every single of them. And then you or your fellow indian members come up with cake, pie etc analogies and then you with comparing F-22 American indigenous technical input with Indian Dhruv which essentially has almost close to 5% of input only.
You do not know squat about anything because only a insane person would come up with "F-22 is using parts from all over the world."
And lol look at you man. You are acting like a innocent kid who has done nothing wrong. listen to me. It wasnt me who started this thread with "Desiman" is a troll. Its you who call other members trolls because they are giving you a reality check and then when they call you back the same names because you start posting ridiculous irrelevant off topic posts you then just start moaning and acting innocent.

Reality check for what kid? Copying and pasting ? Have you worked at LM before ? do you know how their procurement works ? thats what i said i dont want to waste my time on you by giving you the exact parts on the F-22 that are procured from outside the United States. Even if i do, you would come up with another idiotic argument and continue with your rants. Its obvious that you have lost the argument and now in coming down to insulting everybody. I have answered all your question in the previous post but you have not even tried answering my questions even once because answers for them cannot be found on the net so you can do your usual copy paste activities. Sorry kid, i have better things to do than argue with you about something that you clearly have no idea.

 

[desiman]

That is totally wrong. Did you even try reading what I have provided earlier on? "initial structural drawings, BOM's or design requirements" were mostly done for India by multiple nations.
What you have define above can only suite your ego but in reality Dhruv is not indian "indigenous" product other then foreigner technologies R&D designs complied together.

can you prove to me once where it says that the BOM's or the structural drawing were done outside India. Prove to me this and you win, plain and simple as that. If you cant then you must keep your mouth shut.