How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[MilSpec]

'Every single time' a fulcurm met the viper in 'actual combat', the fulcurm has ended up in a scrap shop.

This is 'combat history' not my personal assessment.

In my personal opinion,

In evenly paced airforce (a2a) engagement, Mig29K, SMT, will run circles around F16 blk52 all day long...

F16 shines in multirole missions, whereas Mig29 in a2a engagements....

Mig35OVT if developed, would have run circles around any aircraft flying today in WVR engagement....

 

[he-man]

too ppl not familiar with new mig-29,pls see below

 

[he-man]

In my personal opinion,

In evenly paced airforce (a2a) engagement, Mig29K, SMT, will run circles around F16 blk52 all day round...

F16 shines in multirole missions, whereas Mig29 in a2a engagements....

Mig35OVT if developed, would have run circles around any aircraft flying today in WVR engagement....

mig-35 orders have been placed by russians(pretty small though)

it was a huge mistake for us not to put money on mig-35 instead of mig-29k
thats my personal opinion

russians needed more funding to develop it,and had we placed orders we would have been better off

 

[Alphacharlie]

BTW, "every single time" is a big exaggeration. From what I gather, the total number of mig-29s shot down by f-16s is THREE. One serbian, one yugoslav, and one iraqi. This when the F-16s were flying not only with powerful AEWAC cover, but also F-15s were giving top cover.

I don't see how this combat record of 3 leads you to pull such conclusions.

For example, this is how the yugoslav mig-29 was shot:

You forgot to add -

Yugoslav Mig 29 was running with a NONFUNCTIONAL RADAR

IRAQUIs were flying MIG29A Vs F16 Block52 + Massive E3 support

People MUST COMPARE Apples with Apples

 

[he-man]

all that considered its a strategic blunder by the navy to opt for mig-29k for aircraft carriers.

though its good enough for pakistan but not anywhere else,at least a better radar was must,maybe a better irst too.

that would have made all the diff

 

[MilSpec]

mig-35 orders have been placed by russians(pretty small though)

it was a huge mistake for us not to put money on mig-35 instead of mig-29k
thats my personal opinion

russians needed more funding to develop it,and had we placed orders we would have been better off

Mig 35 would take some time to develop, and by original plans of Vikramaditya, was supposed to be finished a few years ago, I still think UPG upgrade should have chosen the Zhuk Aesa radar, it would have been a very good development... Mig29K did fit the bill for Indian navy and as long as they are satisfied with the a/c, who are we to judge...

3D thrust vectoring Mig35 OVT is my personal favorite for flying reasons, Rafale is although a better choice when it comes to all the aspects of combat according to IAF's requirements...

 

[he-man]

Mig 35 would take some time to develop, and by original plans of Vikramaditya, was supposed to be finished a few years ago, I still think UPG upgrade should have chosen the Zhuk Aesa radar, it would have been a very good development... Mig29K did fit the bill for Indian navy and as long as they are satisfied with the a/c, who are we to judge...

3D thrust vectoring Mig35 OVT is my personal favorite for flying reasons, Rafale is although a better choice when it comes to all the aspects of combat according to IAF's requirements...

yes it all about aesa man,,,,we made a blunder with zhuk-me,,,even rdy-2 of mirage 2000 upgrade will be better than this i think.

at least a pesa was needed

 

[MiG-21]

Russian AESA is still in testing, we could go for it but we have to shoulder the headache of running back to the manufacturer to solve the teething problems which are common in this stage. IAF and the IN went for the safer option of Zhuk-ME. As for mirage's radar being advanced, it better be!!!! That thing costs more than pure gold for its weight!! You can be sure that when the MiG-29Ks go for MLU, it will get Zhuk-AE or something much advanced.

As for the Topic, (Comparing in the context of only the IAF MiG-29UPG vs PAF F-16 Block52[not F-16 MLU or MiG-29K or any other airforce's Falcons and Fulcrums])

Fly Away Cost - MiG-29
Maintainability - F-16
Operating Cost - F-16
Political and Strategic Freedom - MiG-29
Radar - MiG-29 (120km for 5m2 vs 105km for 5m2)
IRST - MiG-29
Ground Attack Capability - F-16
Range - F-16
Payload - F-16
RCS - F-16
Hardpoints - F-16
Climb Rate - MiG-29
Thrust to weight ratio - MiG-29
Wing Loading - MiG-29
Interception Speed - MiG-29
Angel of Attack - MiG-29
Improvised Mud Airstrip take-off and landing(Ruggedness) - MiG-29
Bugs and Kill Switch free - MiG-29


Air to Air -
BVR Combat - Hard to decide (R-27R, R-27T, R-27ER, R-27ET, R-77 vs AIM-120C5) Russian doctrine dwells on the philosophy of not putting all your eggs in a Single Basket to achieve a higher hit probability(semi active, IR and active) as opposed to the US philosophy of going it all with AIM-120. A simple alternating on/off noise jammer or a towed decoy could easily confuse an AIM-120 or any Active radar guided Hom on Jam missile(Su-35 pilot Levenko's own words) . You can only pack so many avionics inside a small missile. While Russian missiles are less advanced in the avionics compared to the American missiles but few of them are longer ranged.

WVR Combat - MiG-29 (Turn Fight Design vs Energy Fight Design... translating to a higher ITR for the Turn Fight Aerodynamic design.)

Further Reading:
Israeli Airforce Assessment of the MiG-29S:
Israeli Airforce MiG-29 Experience
The Israeli Air Force

German Airforce Assessment of the MiG-29G(downgraded MiG-29B):
F-16 vs MiG-29
Luftwaffe MiG-29 experience - positives and negatives

Bulgarian Airforce Dogfight between unupgraded MiG-29B and latest F-16 Block 52:
F-16 vs MiG-29

Last but not the least, Dogfight between the MiG-29B vs the Indian air force's sweetheart the Mirage-2000H:
Beauty vs the Beast

 

[MiG-21]

We have to assume that the reason why the IAF still stocks itself with as much R-27 as it does with R-77 because the Chinese have compromised R-77s operating frequency range to the Pakistanis(R-27s hit probability depends more on the plane's radar and i doubt the Chinese have access to BARS or Zhuk-ME), and any sane pakistani should assume that when the Israeli's sell their jammer pods to be mounted on the IAFs MiGs and the Sukhois those Noise Jammers operating frequency range more specifically narrows down to the Aim-120C5s operating frequency range in some preset.

 

[he-man]

Zhuk me is better than as compared f-16 Apg 67/68 which has 105km for 5m2

that i already mentioned when i asked pakistanis of apg-68v9 range.as usual no reply

 

[he-man]

@he-man but you right Iaf still of gone for Zhuk Ae rather me Zhuk me I want take here Plaaf Su-30 mkk as perspective have Zhuk MSe has range of 190 km against 5m2 RCS

zhuk mse is not in production now due to some reasons.
i think it was intended for chinese su-33 but am not sure.

 

[HariPrasad]

In close combat, Mig has a upper hand. It has un matched agility. Even Israeli found it batter than F 16.

Israeli Air Force Top Guns evaluate the MiG-29 and give their Report

 

[sancho]

This is 'combat history' not my personal assessment.

Sir we didn't have BVRs. Try sending the migs now

You are limiting the performance of the fighter with a very limited point of view here! Even a squadron of latest Eurofighters would not stand a chance against a numerical and technological superior force, even if they include only fighters that are inferior to the EF in a 1 on 1 comparison.

Similarly, your view on PAFs F16s and IAFs Mig 29UPG is very limited as well. The F16s might have BVR capability now, but remain technically and even wrt their weapon packages very limited compared to what other F16 MLUs/B52s have and even to the Mig, that comes with IRST, advanced RWRs, MAWS and jammers. So even if the F16s has a RCS advantage, a passive Mig with these sensor and EW capabilites will remain with advantages in BVR combat, to an F16 that is dependent mainly on it's active radar!
The high capability of R73 in WVR combats was even the reason for western countries to develop similar high agile missiles, but the AIM 9M that PAF got, remains to be inferior and the high maneuverablity of the Mig should be undeniable, which many NATO pilots found out in exercises as well.

Bottom line is, the F16 with all capabilities available, is the better overall fighter "in a 1 on 1 comparison" and not simply based on combat history. But in the PAF vs IAF scenario things are a bit different, since there are limitations on the one side and improvements on the other, which can't be ignored like that.

 

[sancho]

Mig35OVT if developed, would have run circles around any aircraft flying today in WVR engagement....

Doubtful, TVC adds to maneuverability, but mainly compared to conventional designs, but canard design had show high maneuverability comparable performance (see Rafale and EF engagements compared to F22 with TVC). I also doubt that the Mig 35 would have a good flight performance compared to the EF or even the Rafale, since it's not the light Mig of the past anymore. Making it multi role capable, adding more internal fuel, avionics and hardpoints made it much heavier, while the thrust increase was only limited. IF it would had been developed as planned, it would came around 12t empty with 2 x 50 to 52kN dry, while even the Rafale remains below 10t empty with similar dry thrust.
Much of the Mig 35 capability is still based on the myth of the past performance of the Mig 29s compared to older / conventional fighter designs and not compared to modern once. It might be the best Mig version wrt multi role performance, but still falls short in a comparison to modern fighters.

 

[Indischer]

Mig 35 would take some time to develop, and by original plans of Vikramaditya, was supposed to be finished a few years ago, I still think UPG upgrade should have chosen the Zhuk Aesa radar, it would have been a very good development... Mig29K did fit the bill for Indian navy and as long as they are satisfied with the a/c, who are we to judge...

3D thrust vectoring Mig35 OVT is my personal favorite for flying reasons, Rafale is although a better choice when it comes to all the aspects of combat according to IAF's requirements...

Moreover Mig29K is a dedicated carrier-based fighter with foldable wings. Mig 35 isn't what the Navy was looking for.