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How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 19th century?

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In the 1850s, the old Tokugawa Shogunate was overthrown by the pro-modernist bakufu rebels who wanted Japan to become an great Nation State that can can compete and stand
up to the western powers. If I remember correctly, Iran was under Qajar dynasty and did not modernize well into the early 20th century like China. Iranian progressives had the chance to make Persia an Imperial power again, why did they not take it? @Mod I hope this threat is allowed as it is defence related.
 
In the 1850s, the old Tokugawa Shogunate was overthrown by the pro-modernist bakufu rebels who wanted Japan to become an great Nation State that can can compete and stand
up to the western powers. If I remember correctly, Iran was under Qajar dynasty and did not modernize well into the early 20th century like China. Iranian progressives had the chance to make Persia an Imperial power again, why did they not take it? @Mod I hope this threat is allowed as it is defence related.

because of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar (jacka$$ the great)

he killed amir kabir ...

Amir Kabir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Simple
Because of a Disaster Called "Qajar Dynasty"

in all of the Dynasty you can only find 3 person who is worthy of the name of Human
1st- "Amir Kabir" who was actually not a sun of the Cook of Qaem Maqam Farahani and he noticed his intelligence and let his study with his sons sadly latter he was killed while he was busy modernizing Iran

2nd- "Qaem Maqam Farahani" who also get killed by this useless Dynasty
3rd - Abbas Mirza this one actually was of Qajar he was the crown prince of Fath-Ali-Shah and sadly he died before that useless and worthless king Fath-Ali Shah.
 
How did Great game between British and Russian empire affect the Iran. I read that large part of Iran was under Russian and British influence.
 
How did Great game between British and Russian empire affect the Iran. I read that large part of Iran was under Russian and British influence.

That was also because of the great Disaster called Qajar Dynasty .
At the time of Nadir Shah , Russian Army Escaped from the Nadir Shah army even without firing a single bullet.
at the time of first Qajar King Iran army defeated Russian Army at the time of second Qajar King Abbas Mirza the crown prince who was responsible for the Azerbaijan province repeatedly asked The king to send equipment and forces to defend against the Russian but that useless and worthless Fath-Ali shah decide not to send the troop and equipment and mony and instead stay in his Harem (a Harem that put the harem of any Ottoman Turk Emperor or Chinese emperor Harem to shame) and mast?????? on mountains of Gold. and the situation of were so bad in the Azerbaijan that the women in Azerbaijan court when saw the situation gave all their Jewel and Golds so they can buy equipment made some small preparation against the Russian Army but that was not enough .

Sadly Abbas Mirza died before Fath-Ali Shah .
 
How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 19th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 20th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 21th century?

I hope this question will not be repeated at the 22th century!
 
That was also because of the great Disaster called Qajar Dynasty .
At the time of Nadir Shah , Russian Army Escaped from the Nadir Shah army even without firing a single bullet.
at the time of first Qajar King Iran army defeated Russian Army at the time of second Qajar King Abbas Mirza the crown prince who was responsible for the Azerbaijan province repeatedly asked The king to send equipment and forces to defend against the Russian but that useless and worthless Fath-Ali shah decide not to send the troop and equipment and mony and instead stay in his Harem (a Harem that put the harem of any Ottoman Turk Emperor or Chinese emperor Harem to shame) and mast?????? on mountains of Gold. and the situation of were so bad in the Azerbaijan that the women in Azerbaijan court when saw the situation gave all their Jewel and Golds so they can buy equipment made some small preparation against the Russian Army but that was not enough .

Sadly Abbas Mirza died before Fath-Ali Shah .

Thank you for the insight. A well responded answer! But Japan was forced to sign an Treaty from the western powers unwillingly in 1853, and was harassed for not opening ports for foreign trade. Yet they turned situation around and sized port Authour and kicked Tasar Russia out of the far-east in the Russo-Japanese war.
 
Thank you for the insight. A well responded answer! But Japan was forced to sign an Treaty from the western powers unwillingly in 1853, and was harassed for not opening ports for foreign trade. Yet they turned situation around and sized port Authour and kicked Tasar Russia out of the far-east in the Russo-Japanese war.

They didn't Has Qajars , I only exampled Fath-Ali shah .if you look at the Naser-aldin Shah you see the person who killed Amir Kabir , the person who made Iran first modern school and cut the hands of the court from tax and treasury , you see a person who only thought about opium , women and how to lease another part of Iran to Foreigner to go to Europe and just spend the money . then we had Mozaffar-Aldin shah, the person who spend all of his life as crown prince and when he become king he was old , diseased and effectively ready to die , after him we had Mohammad-Ali shah the dictator who asked Russian to cannon the parliament and at last Ahmad-shah a child who at the age of (I guess )12 they exiled his father and mother and put him on the throne and had no self esteem of himself and always did what people around him told him to do .
 
actually you can ask this question with just about every non European countries.
The preeminent theory is this.

Japan was in the right place at the right time.
Japan is an Island nation, so they had maritime access to western traders and explorers.
This means that countries like Mongolia or inner Africa did not have easy access to western nations and thus could not have modernized.
2. Japan was not colonized by 19th century, it was still under self rule.
So Places like India, Africa, Americas could not have industrialized because they were already under Imperial rule.
3. The traditional government was collapsing by the 1850s. The Shogun was on his way out and this allowed a new government to not be restricted by vested interests (ie the samurai). If the Shogun had not collapsed, the samurai would never have allowed Japan to modernize.
the examples of this are in Korea and China. But their governments were stable and the nobals/vested interests did not allow them to modernize, even thought they both had the chance to do it.
4. finally, there were people in Japan who were smart enough to look around them, see that everyone was getting colonized and that they had to do something or they would share that fate. This was triggered by the American gunboat that came to Japan and Japan could do nothing to stop them.


Japan was extremely lucky in history that all those things happened to it. if even one of those things was missing, Japan would be another Vietnam or Mongolia.
 
In the 1850s, the old Tokugawa Shogunate was overthrown by the pro-modernist bakufu rebels who wanted Japan to become an great Nation State that can can compete and stand
up to the western powers. If I remember correctly, Iran was under Qajar dynasty and did not modernize well into the early 20th century like China. Iranian progressives had the chance to make Persia an Imperial power again, why did they not take it? @Mod I hope this threat is allowed as it is defence related.

Here is my own version of explanation:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2758071

The most important event took place in the twin city of Buda and Pest (todays Budapest). Subutai and Batu Khan's army had just finished off Polish army and Hungarian Teutonic Knights. A large part of the Hungarian population were decimated, except for the ones who were lucky enough to hide inside forts. So General Subutai and the Khan camps out with their army of 200,000-300,000 horsemen, with 2-3 times number of horses. Finding grassland to graze these huge number of horses were a major tactical concern, so Mongols are sending out scouts to all parts of Western Europe to come up with a plan of attack to subjugate all of remaining Europe. It takes a lot of planning and almost a year has past in Buda-Pest and preparations are almost complete to initiate the attack. At this fateful moment in 1241, comes the news that the great Khan Ogedei have passed away. All leaders of some consequence, must now go back to Kharakhorum, the seat of the great Khan and the capital of the unified Mongol empire for a Khurultai (meeting or conference) to choose the new great Khan, according to the Mongol custom/code Yasak, established by Chingis Khan. So the army marches back, never to return with the same momentum and force to complete the job they had to abandon, the job of making the borders of Mongol empire from Pacific coast in Siberia and China to the Atlantic coast of Western Europe.

Similar is the story of Japan, it was attacked 2 times by Yuan Mongol forces with Chinese and Korean maritime armada, but every time there was bad luck of typhoons that diminished their chances of victory. These divine winds are called Kamikaze (it does not mean suicide fighter pilots, although the word was used to mean that these suicide pilots in WW II would also save Japan, just as the divine Typhoons did) in Japanese, that saved Japan from Mongol subjugation.

According to the Historical Continuity hypothesis, since the established powers of the time were crushed under the Mongol hammer and only Western Europe and Japan was spared and remained standing, it is no surprise then that West Europeans soon were ascendant with Renaissance, Maritime supremacy and eventual colonization of the planet. Japan was isolationist through out this period. It was opened up by force by Admiral Perry around 1860's. It adapted Western technology in a few decades and became a world power. Soon it had the honour to beat Tzarist Russia, the first White nation ever to be beaten by non-whites and went on to colonize Korea, Manchuria and parts of Asia.

This is just one example, the theory can be applied to other historical situations, current world affairs and future projections and planning.

Japan and West Europe were special cases that escaped Mongol invasions, all other regions/countries in the Eurasian land mass were affected, including Iran.
 
actually you can ask this question with just about every non European countries.
The preeminent theory is this.

Japan was in the right place at the right time.
Japan is an Island nation, so they had maritime access to western traders and explorers.
This means that countries like Mongolia or inner Africa did not have easy access to western nations and thus could not have modernized.
2. Japan was not colonized by 19th century, it was still under self rule.
So Places like India, Africa, Americas could not have industrialized because they were already under Imperial rule.
3. The traditional government was collapsing by the 1850s. The Shogun was on his way out and this allowed a new government to not be restricted by vested interests (ie the samurai). If the Shogun had not collapsed, the samurai would never have allowed Japan to modernize.
the examples of this are in Korea and China. But their governments were stable and the nobals/vested interests did not allow them to modernize, even thought they both had the chance to do it.
4. finally, there were people in Japan who were smart enough to look around them, see that everyone was getting colonized and that they had to do something or they would share that fate. This was triggered by the American gunboat that came to Japan and Japan could do nothing to stop them.


Japan was extremely lucky in history that all those things happened to it. if even one of those things was missing, Japan would be another Vietnam or Mongolia.

Yes, but Iran was never colonized and many Russian and British navies/Armies tried to do gun boat diplomacy. Japan, unlike Iran, had opened to western technology and governmental system and became an imperial power. BTW Iran was more maritime than Japan because it dominated merchant shipping in the Indian ocean. And you seemed to forget the silk trade was important for inflow of ideas and information from east-to-west and vis versa .

Here is my own version of explanation:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2758071



Japan and West Europe were special cases that escaped Mongol invasions, all other regions/countries in the Eurasian land mass were affected, including Iran.

Correct. It is Ironic how both China, Korea, Iran etc were under the influence of Altaic C.Asian steppe nomads. In Iran it was the Qajar, in China, the Manchus.
 
Yes, but Iran was never colonized and many Russian and British navies/Armies tried to do gun boat diplomacy. Japan, unlike Iran, had opened to western technology and governmental system and became an imperial power. BTW Iran was more maritime than Japan because it dominated merchant shipping in the Indian ocean. And you seemed to forget the silk trade was important for inflow of ideas and information from east-to-west and vis versa .



Correct. It is Ironic how both China, Korea, Iran etc were under the influence of Altaic C.Asian steppe nomads. In Iran it was the Qajar, in China, the Manchus.

you missed this one

"3. The traditional government was collapsing by the 1850s. The Shogun was on his way out and this allowed a new government to not be restricted by vested interests (ie the samurai). If the Shogun had not collapsed, the samurai would never have allowed Japan to modernize.
the examples of this are in Korea and China. But their governments were stable and the nobals/vested interests did not allow them to modernize, even thought they both had the chance to do it."

China, Korea, Vietnam also has ocean access but they never modernized due to this reason.

Iran was in the same boat.
They never had people who saw the big picture and were able to collapse the government to implement reforms.
Remember, the Japanese Samurai would have never let Japan modernize if they were not defeated in the Japanese civil war.
 
How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 19th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 20th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 21th century?

I hope this question will not be repeated at the 22th century!

in current situations , this is only the youth who can build our Iran , and what you had wrote in this reply i think is the worst thing that you could say about them .... if you want modernization , then go ahead and do something .

that's all , no need to make fun of others .

این چیزی که نوشتی از صد تا فحش بدتره ....
 
@Ir.Tab.

you know I like you, but you need to be a bit more balanced. Just b/c the Qajars were turks it doesn't mean you should defend them.

Naseredin Shah took many trips to Turkey and other European states. In his journal he even notes that they have achieved amazing things, but industrialization is for Westerners and not for Iranians. He refused to do anything while Europe was advancing. He even noted in his journal that in Turkey women and men work side by side, but he again stated that all these are for Europeans and not Iranians. I don't have his exact words, but we can find it if you want. You can also watch documentaries on Naseredin Shah on youtube (done by BBC). Qajars simply refused to reform the nation and instead introduced more and more backward religous policies. The modern day Iranian mullah is a Qajar creation and invention.

This wasn't all btw. The Qajar kings also sold the entire country for spare change and until the 1950's we were still being directly affected by their policies. You know all this.

Don't act like what you hate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 19th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 20th century?

How come Iran never modernized like Japan in the 21th century?

I hope this question will not be repeated at the 22th century!

I agree with you. No need to look at the past; we have to look at the future.
 

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