History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[dichoi]

This just shows you failed to read the link,"Other than its appearned in the line which proceeds this document, I have not found Ngô in any other premodern Vietnamese text as a term which refers to the Chinese. " prove this.
Regardless his Classical Chinese is leaps and bounds ahead of both us,I'm able to translate some texts what are you capable of?

do you read full the text or not ?

and what is this ?

" 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；..."

Who is this " 狂明 " ? It is " mad Ming " ! Mad Ming is not Chinese ?

 

[Grand Historian]

do you read full the text or not ?

and what is this ?

" 狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；..."

Who is this " 狂明 " ? It is " mad Ming " ! Mad Ming is not Chinese ?

Address Le Minh Khai's points first.

Vietnamese are so blinded by anti Chinese nationalism they can't even comprehend their own texts.

Why don't you address the extreme Sinicization of the Nguyen dynasty?

 

[Viet]

Address Le Minh Khai's points first.
Vietnamese are so blinded by anti Chinese nationalism they can't even comprehend their own texts.

hmmm...judging his posts, Le Minh Khai holds pretty much a neutral view on Vietnam. I don´t see him critizing of what you say "blinded by anti-Chinese nationalism". Nationalism is not bad per se. Without nationalism there is no nation. Neither China nor Vietnam. Yes, nationalism is precondition for nation building. I don´t see we are blind. Surely, we are anti Chinese, but just because you don´t want our kind of thinking, our way of life and try to stop it by force. Vietnam wants respect and equality, but you have other different thing in mind.

or do I miss anything?

Why don't you address the extreme Sinicization of the Nguyen dynasty?

I don´t know, maybe you can tell us. I guess, firstly, the Nguyen wanted to restore the old law and order that went lost during the last civil war (Trinh vs. Nguyen vs. Tay Son). secondly, the emperor had reason to copy the greatness of the Qing as Vietnam controlled Laos and Cambodia. Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia all combined means reign supreme over the largest ever territorial expansion in the vietnamese history.

just google a bit and find these historial pics... comparing Chinese and Vietnamese mandarins. they were much different in terms of dress. extreme sinicization?

well, I read Vietnam tried to impose Vietnam´s law and order, sinicization and other things on barbarians in Laos and Cambodia, and punished hard those who failed to comply.

Qing officials

Nguyen officials

by the way, thank you for sharing the link of this author Le Minh Khai. Unbelieveable that he is a white man. He seems to be fluent in vietnamese as well as chinese language. I am not historian, thus I cannot judge whether what he says is right or wrong. other can do.

 

[dichoi]

Address Le Minh Khai's points first.

Vietnamese are so blinded by anti Chinese nationalism they can't even comprehend their own texts.

Why don't you address the extreme Sinicization of the Nguyen dynasty?

You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.

仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
......
狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).

The rest is stated:

陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
....

You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?

 

[Snomannen]

hmmm...judging his posts, Le Minh Khai holds pretty much a neutral view on Vietnam. I don´t see him critizing of what you say "blinded by anti-Chinese nationalism". Nationalism is not bad per se. Without nationalism there is no nation. Neither China nor Vietnam. Yes, nationalism is precondition for nation building. I don´t see we are blind. Surely, we are anti Chinese, but just because you don´t want our kind of thinking, our way of life and try to stop it by force. Vietnam wants respect and equality, but you have other different thing in mind.

or do I miss anything?

I don´t know, maybe you can tell us. I guess, firstly, the Nguyen wanted to restore the old law and order that went lost during the last civil war (Trinh vs. Nguyen vs. Tay Son). secondly, the emperor had reason to copy the greatness of the Qing as Vietnam controlled Laos and Cambodia. Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia all combined means reign supreme over the largest ever territorial expansion in the vietnamese history.

just google a bit and find these historial pics... comparing Chinese and Vietnamese mandarins. they were much different in terms of dress. extreme sinicization?

well, I read Vietnam tried to impose Vietnam´s law and order, sinicization and other things on barbarians in Laos and Cambodia, and punished hard those who failed to comply.

Qing officials

Nguyen officials

by the way, thank you for sharing the link of this author Le Minh Khai. Unbelieveable that he is a white man. He seems to be fluent in vietnamese as well as chinese language. I am not historian, thus I cannot judge whether what he says is right or wrong. other can do.

Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.

 

[Rechoice]

Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.

Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style.

You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.

仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
......
狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).

The rest is stated:

陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
....

You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?

do you study Mandarin in University ?

 

[Viet]

Those dresses from Vietnamese mandarins are Ming Dynasty's style.

oh...you are right.

You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.

仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
......
狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).

The rest is stated:

陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
....

You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?

cool...you can read, write and speak chinese?

 

[dichoi]

do you study Mandarin in University ?

cool...you can read, write and speak chinese?

I can copy only. tying is with Ha-Nom software. I speak a bit, not so much, I have been joined for the language training course for the tourist guide. But I don't do it now.

 

[Viet]

I speak a bit, not so much, I have been joined for the language training course for the tourist guide. But I don't do it now.

learning to speak chinese is enough a challenge, but to write/memorize the characters is a real nightmare. I am trying to learn the first 500 words
being a tourist guide for chinese is not a piece of cake as the business suffers a lot due to the recent tension, isn´t it?

 

[dichoi]

learning to speak chinese is enough a challenge, but to write/memorize the characters is a real nightmare. I am trying to learn the first 500 words
being a tourist guide for chinese is not a piece of cake as the business suffers a lot due to the recent tension, isn´t it?

yes, the tour is cancelled a lot.

 

[Grand Historian]

You do not read a full text of 平吳大誥 Bình Ngô Đại Cáo is written in Hanzi, then L. C. Kelly ( Le Minh Khai ) does read it but, but he has been neglected what is important statement of this text.

仁 義之 舉, 要 在 安 民,
弔伐 之 師 莫 先 去 暴 。
惟 我 大 越 之 國,
實 為文 獻 之 邦 。
山 川 之 封域 既 殊,
南 北 之 風 俗亦 異 。
自 趙 丁 李 陳 之肇 造 我 國,
與 漢 唐 宋元 而 各 帝 一 方 。
雖 強弱 時 有 不 同
而 豪 傑 世未 常 乏 。
......
狂明 伺 隙, 因 以 毒 我 民；
惡 黨 懷 奸, 竟 以 賣我 國 。... Only one time, Viet Jian was critized as 惡 黨. (ngụy đảng).

The rest is stated:

陳 智 山 壽 聞風 而; 褫 魄，
李 安 方 政 假 息 以 偷生 。
乘 勝 長 驅, 西 京既 為 我 有；
選 兵 進 取， 東 都 盡 復 舊 疆 。
寧橋 之 血 成 川, 流 腥 萬里;
窣 洞 之 屍 積 野 ，遺 臭 千 年 。
陳 洽 賊 之腹 心, 既 梟 其 首;
李亮 賊 之 奸 蠹, 又 暴 厥屍 。
王 通 理 亂 而 焚 者益 焚,
馬 瑛 救 鬥 而 怒者 益 怒 。
彼 智 窮 而 力盡, 束 手 待 亡;
我 謀伐 而 心 攻, 不 戰 自 屈。
謂 彼 必 易 心 而 改 慮，
豈 意 復 作 孽 以 速 辜。
執 一 己 之 見 以 嫁 禍於 他 人,
貪 一 時 之 功以 貽 笑 於 天 下 。
遂 靈宣 德 之 狡 童, 黷 兵 無厭;
仍 命 晟 昇 之 懦 將， 以 油 救 焚 。
丁 未 九月 柳 昇 遂 引 兵 猶 邱 溫而 進,
本 年 十 月 木 晟又 分 途 自 雲 南 而 來 。
予 前 既 選 兵 塞 險 以 摧其 鋒,
予 後 再 調 兵 截路 以 斷 其 食 。
本 月 十八 日 柳 昇 為 我 軍 所 攻， 計 墜 於 支 稜 之 野 ；
本 月 二 十 日 柳 昇 又 為我 軍 所 敗, 身 死 於 馬鞍 之 山 。
二 十 五 日 保定 伯 梁 銘 陣 陷 而 喪 軀，
二 十 八 日 尚 書 李 慶計 窮 而 刎 首 。
....

You can calculate how many Ming Dynasty's general (Chinese) was loser in this Sino - Vietnam war ?

Why would I bother reading 平吳大誥,I'm busying translating 經略復國要編 for future use.

Why don't you address Le Minh Khai's points instead of ignoring them?

Ming Dynasty style is Yuan style of Mongolian. Qing style is Manchurian style.

The habitual liar strikes again,the mandarin square originated in Ming, while the wushamao was an evolution of the Han/Xianbei scarf ie the putou,finally gongfu was an evolution of the pao which originated in during the Han dynasty later having some Xianbei influences.

 

[dichoi]

Why would I bother reading 平吳大誥,I'm busying translating 經略復國要編 for future use.
Why don't you address Le Minh Khai's points instead of ignoring them?

I discussed here with you, not with Lam C. Kelly,

,Qing era Chinese were called 清 while the supposed Kinh Vietnamese were labeled 漢.

I state again here that: Vietnamese were labeled as 漢 when Han Zi was official writing system in Vietnam, it got a meaning Majority ethnic people, not related to 漢 Chinese in China.

Your mother tongue was the result of Le Loi conquering the more Sinicized Red River elite, otherwise you would still be speaking a variant of Chinese today.

It is very funny,

Le Loi, with 平吳大誥 he taken back our land and Tonkin/Hanoi from Ming invaders, not from "Sinicized Red River elite".

It is my conclusion.

 

[Grand Historian]

I discussed here with you, not with Lam C. Kelly,

You criticized him for being White now you fail to reply how shameless are you?

I state again here that: Vietnamese were labeled as 漢 when Han Zi was official writing system in Vietnam, it got a meaning Majority ethnic people, not related to 漢 Chinese in China.

漢 originated from China thus 漢 meant the Kinh were culturally Chinese.

It is very funny,

Le Loi, with 平吳大誥 he taken back our land and Tonkin/Hanoi from Ming invaders, not from "Sinicized Red River elite".

It is my conclusion.

Le Loi was of Trai stock,read works by Lieberman,Taylor and Li I'm not going to bother educating you.

 

[Rechoice]

@dichoi

you can speak Mandarin and typing Han Zi, like Pundi Cantonese and Hokklo people. You are Southern Han Chinese, not Vietnamese Kinh people. ...........

 

[dichoi]

@dichoi

you can speak Mandarin and typing Han Zi, like Pundi Cantonese and Hokklo people. You are Southern Han Chinese, not Vietnamese Kinh people. ...........

Yes,

My family tree (gia phả) has been stated:
鼻 祖 耳 孫 之 自 我 族 漢 前 先 祖 原 貫 于 本 社...

dịch theo nghĩa Hán Việt là:

" Cố tổ thính tôn chi tự ngã tộc Hán tiền tiên tổ nguyên quán vu bản xã ..." được các cụ dich ra quốc ngữ là: " Cụ cố tổ nói cho con cháu nghe cụ tổ nhà ta vốn người miền xuôi đến ở xã này...". Chữ Hán 漢 được các cụ dịch là "người miền xuôi" không phải là "người miền ngược" có nghĩa không phải là "người thiểu số". ở gần quê mình có bản làng của người Mường.