History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Snomannen]

We consider it as invasion of our land

That's land of Baiyue

Baiyue is China.

 

[yue10]

Ngo Si Lien, when his turn came, he took the version of Ban Co. Again word by word he copied the Chinese text. He added, however, another omission, small in appearance, but loaded with historical meaning. He left out three characters that are translated into ‘gradually he used lawful disguises’. To take the Vietnamese historian’s text, the sentence should be; ‘At that, he eliminated the officials appointed by the Tan…’. Thus, Trieu Da appears to be cruel and no politician at all

These tales involved far-away peoples and immemorial times concerning the nation, why not use them to make Dai Viet great and Le Thanh tong glorious? A great nation bespeaks a great king, and a great nation is great when its area is immense and its past distant. With all that in mind, Ngo Si Lien compiled his Complete History, in which fairies and ghosts were as real as human beings. He was very successful.

Viets history belong to different ethnic root

Who is that guy, can you disclose his nick ?.

I think, your nick is "yuenan" troll on other forum.

I think, your nick is "RaiseoftheNegrito" troll on other forum.

 

[Viet]

why should i listen to you? your race is a joke, in all my 1 year trolling career I only met one Viet was superior mentality, many was way more knowledgeable than me but their brain was worked quite unusually


......

what race are you? You claim you are a Viet, aren´t you? so you are a joke, too?
here is a famous film on Vietnam during the French occupation

 

[BoQ77]

Mr. Kerry says Hi to Vietnam

 

[Grand Historian]

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.

I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog


In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.


5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.

I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog


In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.


5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

You are welcomed, and thank you for making a fair comment for China's history.

You have to know that it is unfortunate for China being surrounded by a bunch of greedy monkeys.

 

[BoQ77]

You drove out of the subject

The history of Vietnam is history of fighting and defeating the invaders almost from Northern.
Stand tall at the last one.

 

[Viet]

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.
I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.

5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

lol welcome to the forum, to your very first post

actually your questions, answers and statements are more or less well treated in the thread already. I just want to cover one point: Hung Kings.

Sure, the existence of Hung Kings is very disputed as it lacks of historical evidence. Every Viet school kid knows it is a sage, myth or fairy tale, rather than reality. Unless someone believes to the story of 100 eggs from Au Co, the immortal mountain fairy.

for someone, who is not aware of the story:

Hung King festivals | Vietnam Country
Legend associated with the Hung Kings

For a long time ago, Lac Long Quan (King Dragon of the land of Lac) had power strength; he wanted to live near water. He succeeded to the throne of his father, and governed the Lac-Viet tribe. One day, the King of the Northern tribe, De Lai with his daughter had a visit to the South.



De Lai married Au Co to Lac Long Quan as admiring Lac Long Quan’s talent. Au Co gave birth to a membranous sac. The sac became bigger and bigger, and burst on the seventh day. Surprisingly, there have one hundred eggs in the sac which hatched into one hundred cute babies.

They are the ancestors of Vietnam, so the Vietnamese are regarded as the “Dragon and Fairy descendants” The eldest son of Lac Long Quan was the King Hung I. After establishing himself realm at Phong Chau, now the Southern part of Phu Tho Province whose realm was made up by 50 tribes, The 18 Hung kings then ruled the country from 2879 to 258BC.



According to history records, the Hung King’s regime was very healthy and stable, starting for setting up Viet Nam as a sovereign nation. The Hung King’s 18 generations saw development of a nation with the features as the sense of community, mutual affection, patriotism and unwillingness to yield to oppression.

From this initial settlement, the Hong River (Red river) civilization and the pre-Dong Son cultures developed. To commemorate the anniversary of Vietnamese people ancestor death, they hold a festival nationwide on the 10th day of the third lunar month, founder of the Vietnamese nation – the first Hung King.

Hung King Anniversary


Annually from the 8th to the 11st of the third lunar month, Vietnamese people holds Hung King anniversary. On the 10th of the third lunar March, is the main festival day, on which Vietnamese working people have one more national holiday to mark the anniversary of the Hung King’s death. Every year, on this traditional occasion, Vietnamese people worldwide join their brothers and sisters in spirit to observe Vietnam National Day in commemoration of their ancestors. Hung temple on Nghia Linh Moutain in Phong Chau District, Phu Tho Province is the main place to hold the main ceremony.



Let’s contemplate this historical vestige!
The Hung Temple is located on the top of the 175 meter – high Nghia Linh mountain. It is an ancient and sacred architectural. The festival is one of the chances for Vietnamese to visit their land of origin. In the festival days, flags are to be hung across the road leading from Viet Tri to Hung Mountain. Besides, many huge balloons with various colors will be hung in surrounding areas. In the earnest the following morning, 10th day the main worship service is held, beginning with the flower ceremony. In Den Thuong (Upper Temple) where the Hung Kings used to worship deities with full rituals, the ceremony consists of a lavish five-fruit feast.

Banh Chung (square cake) and Banh Giay (circle cake) are also served to remind people of the Lang Lieu Legend (the 18th Hung King who invented these cakes), and the merit of the Hung Kings who taught people to grow rice. Besides, some marches in the procession also are took place as the elephant march followed by the procession chair. Especially, a Xoan song performance (a classical type of song) in the Den Thuong, a “Ca Tru” (a kind of classical opera) in Den Ha (Lower Temple) are performed in the march, and other activities like cross-bow shooting, rice cooking, swinging contests, cock fighting, and dragon dancing are also took place.



Annually, on the 10th day of the third lunar March visitors from all over the country will come to Phu Tho province to take part in the festival. They believe that it is a way to show their love and pride of their ancestral land. The Hung King Temple Festival is one of the most important festivals of the Vietnamese people; it is deeply imbedded in the minds of all Vietnamese citizens, regardless of where they originated from.

 

[yue10]

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.

I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog


In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.


5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

the Annam race could be called as slave mentality and inferioty complex

Nanyue is Tai

 

[NiceGuy]

Boasting how the Viets had defeated the Mongolians are what they do best here, when the French came these supa powa Viets let the French rule them. What happened to the mighty Viets that fought against the aggressive Mongolian Empire? Then the Japs came, the French surrendered and the Viets didn't do much against the Japs.

First : lots of VNese was Catholic and Christian during French colony's time. They support French against VN emperor, thats why, we were defeated quite easily.People can say: during French colony's time, its a VN civil war between pro-Catholic and nationalist VNEse

French could rule VN coz those pro-Catholic VNese begged for their support to take control of VN

A power struggle then developed between Minh Mạng and pro-Catholic, pro-Western officials who wanted to maintain the power they had been given by Gia Long.[25][26][26][26] Eventually, 2,000 Vietnamese Catholic troops fought under the command of Father Nguyễn Văn Tâm in an attempt to depose Minh Mạng and install a Catholic emperor.[27]

The revolt was put down, and restrictions were placed on Catholicism. Persistent rebellions occurred throughout the Nguyễn Dynasty, many led by Catholic priests intent on installing a Christian monarch. During the French colonial campaign against Vietnam from 1858 to 1883, many Catholics joined with the French in helping to establish colonialism by fighting against the Vietnamese government. Once colonial rule was established the Catholics were rewarded with preferential treatment in government posts, education, and the church was given vast tracts of royal land that had been seized.

After the end of the French rule and Vietnam division in mid-1950s, Catholicism declined in the North, where the communists regarded it as a reactionary force opposed to national liberation and social progress. In the South, by contrast, Catholicism was expanded under the presidency of Ngo Dinh Diem, who promoted it as an important bulwark against North Vietnam. Diem, whose brother was Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc gave extra rights to the Catholic Church, dedicated the nation to the Virgin Mary and preferentially promoted Catholic military officers and public servants while restricting Buddhism and allowing Catholic paramilitaries to demolish temples and pagodas. In 1955 approximately 600,000 Catholics remained in the North after an estimated 650,000 had fled to the South in Operation Passage to Freedom.
Christianity in Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

second: Champa and Khmer also got support from French and they weakened VN's power too

 

[Viet]

the Annam race could be called as slave mentality and inferioty complex

Nanyue is Tai

idiot. posting again and again same words. copy and paste.

 

[yue10]

idiot. posting again and again same words. copy and paste.

what's problem now my Annam friend? your abusive mentality showed maybe something hurting a bit deeper inside, its could be massive inferiority complex ran through the vein of the Annams race

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

First : lots of VNese was Catholic and Christian during French colony's time. They support French against VN emperor, thats why, we were defeated quite easily.People can say: during French colony's time, its a VN civil war between pro-Catholic and nationalist VNEse

French could rule VN coz those pro-Catholic VNese begged for their support to take control of VN

second: Champa and Khmer also got support from French and they weakened VN's power too

You allowed those pro-Christian beggars to run your country which means you are quite weak by yourselves.

 

[Grand Historian]

Viet(the member),it doesn't matter if your people commemorate the Hung Kings,there are plenty of temples dedicated to Shennong or Huangdi yet no serious Sinologist claims the Three Sovereigns and Five Augusts were real.

In the 1900s the existence of the Shang dynasty was doubted and Shiji was treated as hogwash,however due to the discovery of oracle bones Shang was proven to exist.

However there lacks any evidence of oracle bones showing the Xia kings or archaeological remains thus the same scrutiny should be applied to Xich Quy,Van Lang and the Hung Kings.

I already stated Phong Chau didn't exist it terminology is from the Sui-Tang era.
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/the-problems-with-“chau”-and-phong-chau/


You have to realize identities back then weren't divided neatly into black and white.

Nguyen era texts refer to modern day Kinh people as Han,while even as late as the Qing Han Chinese showed loyalty with people from their own provinces or villages.

The Nguyen dynasty even worshiped Chinese deities/sages/kings.
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/the-nguyễn-dynasty’s-miếu-lịch-dại-dế-vương/
Several Vietnamese dynasties were founded by men with Chinese ancestry such as Early Ly dynasty,Tran and Ho dynasties if you consider Thuc Phan to be Chinese then that's another one.

Jiaozhi was also a prime location for Han migrants yet the only Vietnamese migration to China is the modern day Jing ethincity in Guangxi.

One prime example would be the constant feuds between Zhangzhou,Quanzhou and Hakka people in Taiwan even though they were considered Han.

Han as an ethnoym originated in the Northern Wei dynasty.

For further reading about Han Chinese ethnicity I would recommend reading

Becoming Zhongguo,Becoming Han: Tracing and Re-Conceptualizing Ethnicity in Ancient Northern China,770-AD581

Critical Han Studies: The History, Representation, and Identity of China's Majority


Since you nationalist Vietnamese are so obsessed with Southern Han Chinese being brainwashed Baiyue are Southern Vietnamese brainwashed Khmer,Chams and Han Chinese?

 

[EastSea]

After browsing through this thread and many other similar ones on the internet, the inferiority complex of Vietnamese nationalists is blatantly obvious.

I will list several agendas that Vietnamese nationalists try to propagate.

1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are genetically separate populations.
2.Southern Han Chinese are sinicized Baiyue/Baipu.
3.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
4.The kingdoms of Xich Quy and Van Lang existed and they covered Southern China.
5.Chinese owe their achievements to ancient Baiyue people.



1.Southern Han Chinese and Northern Han Chinese are not two separate populations,they have been mixing for generations ie ethnic Han/Hua that fled in times of great turmoil to Southern China).

If SHC and NHC are separate populations why is the proportion of Y-haplogroups similar to each other?

Why is there a genetic cline instead of distinct separate populations?
Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation

Furthermore attaching an ethnicity to a haplogroup is problematic,they formed before the presence of modern day Chinese or Vietnamese.


2.This question is the definition of asinine.

From Wu Taibo and Wu Zhongyong to GouWu,YuYue to Minyue and DongOu,Zhuang Qiao and his soldiers to Dian,Zhao Tuo and Qin era soldiers/convicts in Nanyue these are just some ancient examples you probably already know examples such as the Fall of Western Jin and Northern Song.

There is also genealogical records that Chinese families own though claims of descent from legendary sages or kings should be treated with suspicion.

So how could SHC only compose of natives not migrants?


3. Baiyue are theorized to belong to separate language families such Tibeto Burman,Hmong Mien,Tai Kadai etc. and was a blanket term for Southern natives.

Most likely the original "Yue" were an Austro Asiatic population and the term was recycled to refer to populations further South, ie Dongyi being applied to ancient Koreans and Japanese when the original Dongyi lived in Shandong and Jiangsu.

They did however share some traits like teeth blackening,stilted houses,long hair,river faring etc
however it is unknown if they ever called themselves "Yue" save for YuYue.

Some reading for those interested.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp176_history_of_yue.pdf
http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/2003a/03 brindley.pdf


4. First off there is no archaeological proof,secondly written sources of the kingdoms appear relatively late after the demise of both of them.

If the Dong Son civilization is considered "Vietnamese" the furthest influence was in Yunnan,Guizhou,Guandong and Guangxi where the bronze drums spread(even so its debated whether there was Chinese influence on the Dong Son culture)

For further reading on the nationalistic interpretations of bronze drums see: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s by Xiaorang Han

However assuming the Baiyue in these areas mentioned above identified as one group, the Chinese labeled them as separate entities and is still a far cry from of Southern China.

In the Dai Viet su ky toan thu we see this passage.

雄王之立也，建國號文郎國。（其國東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南接胡孫國，即占城國，今 廣南是也。）

King Hung named his kingdom Van Lang after he ascended to power.

To the East it touched the Southern Sea,to the West Ba and Shu,to the North Lake Dongting,to the South Hu Sun,which was Champa now known as Guang Nan province.

If Van Lang was that large why didn't the Chinese mention its presence,furthermore it would overlap with several of the warring states and other Baiyue states.

The capital could not have existed either see The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog


In reality we see Vietnamese trying to fabricate a past by claiming a legendary "Chinese" sage Shennong as the ancestor of the Hung Kings.


5. In my opinion this is the most ludicrous of these claims on par with Koreans claiming Gojoseon influenced Zhou or that Baekje colonized China.

Some ridiculous claims is that Confucius was influenced by the Baiyue or that Yijing was written by Vietnamese.

There isn't much to say here,name one Sinologist that claims this.


As for Nanyue/Namviet being a Chinese/Vietnamese kingdom I'll answer that question another day.

My suggestion for you nationalistic Vietnamese is to visit Guangdong and tell them they are not Chinese but assimilated Baiyue and should join Vietnam

1.
40 % Cantonese and 37 % Wuyue people don't shared partial bloodline with Han people Han in Northern China, they are native people called as Bai Yue in early history of China.

2. CouJian, Zhoa Tuo and his soldiers were Han, they created WuYue, NamYue, MinYue Dynasties in ancient time. Its similar to Spanol, Portugal, English men created countries today called Latin American states in America continent. Mixed people can not say they are pure Spanol, Portugal or white men.

3. Dongyi is called for WuYue people, or Jingshu (荆楚) not for Japanese nor Korean, because when the concept "DongYi" born, created by Northern Hans, they did not know where are Japanese are living in this time, they were in Islands as far in oversea, not in East area of mainland China.

4. At beginning statement of our History book, it stated that "when God created many countries, looked at Jiaozhi people who is out of BaiYue ..." its means from long time in the past, so that our ancestors dont considered themselves belong to Bai Yue (Tai/Kay) people. In fact Vietnames/Kinh people is belong Mon Khmer people

Our History book is also stated that: "Van Lang to the East it touched the Southern Sea, to the West Ba and Shu, to the North Lake Dongting, ...."

A genetically based conclusion that the Hmong-Mien peoples are an offshoot of the Mon-Khmer peoples,

Dispatches From Turtle Island: Genetic Links of Mon-Khmer and Hmong-Mien Peoples Confirmed

So we can believe that in ancient time Hung King was ruler of our our land, today is Southern China, North point reached to DongDing Lake in China.