History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Aepsilons]

Thai-Vietnamese War of 1833

 

[EastSea]

Thai-Vietnamese War of 1833

Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút
January 20, 1785. was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Siamese forces. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese history.

Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút
January 20, 1785. was fought between Tây-Sơn (Vietnamese) and Siamese forces. It is considered one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese history.

Battle of Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It wasn't really a fair military victory since Nguyen Hue lured the Siamese in a trap by telling them to come under banner of truce, but really planning to attack the Siamese when they were unprepared and thinking the time was a formal parlay. I don't consider Battle of Rach Gam Xoai Mut as the thesis of a great military victory.

According to Bushido, that was dishonorable tactic by Nguyen Hue. Any Japanese Warlord during the Sengoku Jidai would prefer to commit Hara Kiri than do something as dishonorable and duplicitous as that.

 

[EastSea]

It wasn't really a fair military victory since Nguyen Hue lured the Siamese in a trap by telling them to come under banner of truce, but really planning to attack the Siamese when they were unprepared and thinking the time was a formal parlay. I don't consider Battle of Rach Gam Xoai Mut as the thesis of a great military victory.

According to Bushido, that was dishonorable tactic by Nguyen Hue. Any Japanese Warlord during the Sengoku Jidai would prefer to commit Hara Kiri than do something as dishonorable and duplicitous as that.

I think you you have mixed Nguyễn Huệ (Tay Son Dynasty) and Nguyễn Ánh (Nguyen Dynasty).

Nguyễn Anh has been used Siem army to attack Nguyễn Huệ in 1785. There is nothing related to dishonorable tactic here. Nguyễn Huệ has reattacked on Siem and defended himself.

 

[Aepsilons]

I think you you have mixed Nguyễn Huệ (Tay Son Dynasty) and Nguyễn Ánh (Nguyen Dynasty).

Nguyễn Anh has been used Siem army to attack Nguyễn Huệ in 1785. There is nothing related to dishonorable tactic here. Nguyễn Huệ has reattacked on Siem and defended himself.

No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.

But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.

 

[Soryu]

No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.

But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.

well, there's difference in english wiki and Vietnamese document, so I'm not sure about the truth, but Nguyen Anh was not stupid leader to deceived ...

 

[Aepsilons]

well, there's difference in english wiki and Vietnamese document, so I'm not sure about the truth, but Nguyen Anh was not stupid leader to deceived ...

It is interesting that in 1785 the Siamese had the capacity to send an army of over 40,000 to assist Anh. It was just some 10 years prior that Siam had just repelled the Burmese from their lands. Talk about an immediate military rise. I am intrigued to know why Anh courted Siam's help, why didn't he court the Qing Dynasty.

 

[EastSea]

No it was Nguyen Hue who lured the forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese Army to a supposed peace deal, the allied forces of Nguyen Anh and the Siamese accepted and lowered their defenses thinking that it was an honorable official parlay. Unbeknownst to them, the forces of Nguyen Hue immediately blocked all exits for the Siamese Navy and had their artillery fire on Siamese ships and killing the Siamese general , decimating the forces of Anh and the Siamese (estimated about 40,000). This was an unfair battle and the duplicitiousness of Nguyen Hue does not warrant foreign military strategists to see this as 'Great' Battle at all. Now, say, had the Vietnamese forces of Nguyen Hue defeated the forces of Anh and the Siamese in open battle , then I would give my respect.

But in regards to the actual historical events, nay, there is no honor in it.

what you said about honority here is very funny. I quoted here for you from e.wiki:

Background
In 1783 Tây-Sơn rebel forces recaptured Saigon and forced Nguyễn Ánh to flee across the river to Siam.
While in exile Nguyễn Ánh wished to retake Gia Định and push the Tây-Sơn rebels out. One of Anh's generals, Chau Van Tiep, convinced the peaceful King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke of Siam to provide Nguyen Anh with support troops and a small invasion force.

In mid-1784 Nguyen Anh, with 20,000–50,000 Siamese troops and 300 warships, moved through Cambodia, then east of Tonle Sap (Toh Lay Sap in Thai) and penetrated the recently annexed provinces of Annam. 20,000 Siamese troops reached Kiên Giang and another 30,000 landed in Chap Lap.

Battle
The Tây Sơn reinforcements led by Nguyễn Huệ marched south from Quy Nhơn and arrived in Cochin China territory soon after. Hue avoided a direct attack on a strong Siamese force at Sadec and tried to set up a trap. Nguyễn Huệ, anticipating a move from the Siamese, had secretly positioned his infantry and artillery along the Mekong River (Rạch Gầm-Xoài Mút area of present day Tiền Giang province), and on some islands in the middle, facing other troops on the northern banks with naval reinforcements on both sides of the infantry positions.

On the morning of January 20, 1785 Nguyễn Huệ sent a small naval force, under a banner of truce, to lure the Siamese into his trap. After so many victories, the Siamese army and naval forces were overconfident. So, they went to the parley, unaware of the trap. Nguyễn Huệ's ships dashed into the unprepared Siamese troops, preventing their advance or retreat. In the meanwhile, Tay Son artillery opened fire. The battle ended with a near annihilation of the Siamese force, at least according to Vietnamese sources reporting that all the ships of the Siamese navy were destroyed and only 2,000–3,000 of the original expedition survived to escape back across the river into Siam. Nguyen Anh and his family members escaped and later went to Siam.

There was no peace talk between Nguyen Hue and Siamese before.

 

[Aepsilons]

There was no peace talk between Nguyen Hue and Siamese before.

Did you read your own quote? It said that Nguyen Hue sent a naval force under a banner of truce to lure them into a trap. Do you know what Banner of Truce means?

Banner of Truce:

1. a white flag displayed as an invitation to the enemy to confer, or carried as a sign of peaceful intention by one sent to deal with the enemy.

Clearly, the intentions of Hue was not peaceful at all. Don't you agree? The mistake of the Siamese and Anh was in lowering their guards during this Formal parlay.

He should have remembered the lessons of Sun Tzu, "Never lower your eyes to your enemy..."

 

[EastSea]

It is interesting that in 1785 the Siamese had the capacity to send an army of over 40,000 to assist Anh. It was just some 10 years prior that Siam had just repelled the Burmese from their lands. Talk about an immediate military rise. I am intrigued to know why Anh courted Siam's help, why didn't he court the Qing Dynasty.

North Vietnam (tonkin) was under rule of Trinh Warlord, enemy of Nguyen Warlord in South Vietnam (cochin-China).

 

[Aepsilons]

North Vietnam (tonkin) was under rule of Trinh Warlord, enemy of Nguyen Warlord in South Vietnam (cochin-China).

Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.

 

[EastSea]

Did you read your own quote? It said that Nguyen Hue sent a naval force under a banner of truce to lure them into a trap. Do you know what Banner of Truce means?

Banner of Truce:

1. a white flag displayed as an invitation to the enemy to confer, or carried as a sign of peaceful intention by one sent to deal with the enemy.

Clearly, the intentions of Hue was not peaceful at all. Don't you agree? The mistake of the Siamese and Anh was in lowering their guards during this Formal parlay.

He should have remembered the lessons of Sun Tzu, "Never lower your eyes to your enemy..."

There is ordenary maneuvers in the battle field in every where in the world.

Same story recently, when our General Vo Nguyen Giap, he lured France Colonial army that Vietming army is very weak, he lured France dropped his troops in to Dien Bien Phu.

Sun Tzu also said that : ""The military affair is a cheating maneuvers.""

 

[Soryu]

Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.

Vietnamese noble and people will not accept that action, and will united to against Nguyen Anh. The Viet know Chinese is dangerous enemy and didn't welcome them.
And Nguyen Anh know Chinese so well, if he want help from Chinese, he will must pay big price, even may be cost his nation after he had it.

 

[EastSea]

Yes, i know that. But i am just curious to know why Anh asked for military arbitration from Siam and not from the Qing Dynasty of China.

officially, Qing Dynasty China recognized Le Dynasty in Vietnam (in fact Le Dynasty is puppet of Trinh warlord). In reality the conflict in Vietnam between Tring Warlord with, Nguyen warlord or Nguyen Hue rebels is internal affair of Vietnam. Qing Dynasty didnt cared about this incidents.

 

[Aepsilons]

Vietnamese noble and people will not accept that action, and will united to against Nguyen Anh. The Viet know Chinese is dangerous enemy and didn't welcome them.
And Nguyen Anh know Chinese so well, if he want help from Chinese, he will must pay big price, even may be cost his nation after he had it.

That's understandable. I wonder what concessions Anh was willing to concede to the Siamese in return for their help. Do you happen to know ?

officially, Qing Dynasty China recognized Le Dynasty in Vietnam (in fact Le Dynasty is puppet of Trinh warlord). In reality the conflict in Vietnam between Tring Warlord with, Nguyen warlord or Nguyen Hue rebels is internal affair of Vietnam. Qing Dynasty didnt cared about this incidents.

I doubt that the Qing didn't care, they cared enough to intervene in Burma in the 1760s. Perhaps there was an internal issue in the Chinese Empire that prevented the Qing Dynasty from interfering in Indochina during the 1780s.

I'm curious to know now tho.