History of Pakistan Air Force

[blain2]

The leader shot down his #2.

 

[BATMAN]

I couldn't hold it more. I love this thread.
Valuble information for ammetures and as I see some professionals are also discovering.

 

[Muradk]

The leader shot down his #2.

I wish I could explain you the feeling when you enter a Dog-fight , it is just emazing on one side you are scard that is your partner ok and he is scard if the other is ok. you forget everything within seconds and the traning take over that is the time when fear vanishes you start remembring what you were told and what you have to do.
Most of the times PAF was out munbered 6to1 , 4 to1 , 2 to 1 , but everytime we won. When the whole thing starts there are bogies going right and left you have to make sure you watch your 6 watch your no 2 he is ok at the same time you are trying to shoot the enemy and talking to No2 and GCI at the same time. Guys it seems easy but its not easy,Hollywood makes it so easy the hero has to win in reality everyone in air at that time is a hero the first person under the pipper he is history. In the heat of the battle sometimes you loss sight of the fact that you have a no 2 flying in the same area even a no3 and accidents happen.
It gives me much pleasure to say in the afgan war 3 of my students kicked ***. On the other hand I am sad that 2 of them died and one had to take early retirment because of heart problems.

Wg. Cdre. Abdul Razzaq I was his IP in Risalpuire he died with Musaf Mir Razzaq was a AVM.

Sqn. Ldr. A. Hameed Qadri I was his IP in Risalpure and he did his conversion to Mirages under me NO9 Sqd. Died as an Air cdre Crashed in a F-7 he was base commander kamra and it was his last day of command he was going for NDC.

Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood he did his conversion under me 14 sqd 1980. He topped FCU he topped OCU. retired now heart problems.

khalid shot an afghan Su22 Captian Hashim , the sidewinder hit the left wing he saw the pilot eject and suddenly he goes into the sun and cant see him he turns his f-16 around and now giving coordanance to GCI so Pak Army can catch him while he is talking he is looking down not realising that capt hashims shoot is diretly in-fornt of him and he missed him by inches, when he landed army captured him the first thing he did was complained that your pilot tried to kill me with his plane Lt Col Majeed was commanding the army guys I forgot what unit he was from if I am not wrong it was 7 FF, I read his statement , In his statement he said the hashim was crying when they caught him and constantly complained that he tried to kill me with his plane.

 

[ejaz007]

Its not my word against any one else's word. I have already stated that my information is based on different sources I think are reliable and authentic. I have tried to present as much details as I can but then I could be wrong.

1971 Mirages kill have been explained by Murad Sb. so that is over.

As far as Afghan war is concerned no concrete proof exists about the activities of Mirages and unless PAF comes out and says some thing nothing can be said with authority. This is the best I can say.

 

[vish]

Don't get me wrong Murad sir, I'm not doubting your skill or knowledge, its just that mocking lol a guy, who has narrowly escaped death, and is crying does not deem fit to me.

 

[Blackpearl]

Blue on Blue remains unsolved yet

 

[shehbazi2001]

One thing that comes to mind with regard to interceptions during Afghan war is the high command of PAF. F-16s came to Pakistan or say skill on them was achieved by 1983, on the initial batch at least. But no interceptions were made.

Russian/afghan planes did thousands of Pakistani airspace violations and still Mirages were not used for western border patrol. F-6s could not catch up with faster Migs. But Su-25 was not faster.

RoEs were so strict like that the debris should fall inside Pakistan and the plane should come at least 10 miles or something like that, I dont remember exactly the book of PAF history.

Indians did not think of such RoEs when they shot down our unarmed martime patrol Atlantique aircraft with several crew on 10 Aug 1999. That is again an event shrouded in mystery. Some sources say that the Escort was intentionally cancelled. Yes it is amazing that Atlantique was flying close to Indian border in TENSE times without any escort?

One may ask which squadron was responsible for providing escort......did some pilot again said "YES SIR"?

The atlantique incident needs good investigation......looks just like many more dark secrets......

ok our main topic was airspace violations, but they were not just violations,
these planes bombed pakistani population. Even chitral was not spared. Some chitrali people told me events of those attacks.

In the era of Anwar Shamim, it seems that pilots were not allowed to open fire on all intruders or killer of pakistanis. It was ACM Hakimullah who allowed full action and then we saw Falcons doing their business. Thats why I said some interviews will be good. It can be asked from Anwar Shamim that why he did not allow pilots to do justice with killers of pakistani people during Afghan war............

Anwar was commander of Fighter-bomber wing at Sargodha in 1965. The base commander of Sargodha was M Z Masood (corrent me if I am wrong). Alam was himself Squadron Commander. Now Alam says that a medal better than Sitara-e-Jurrat was recommended for him. Now think who made hurdles?

M.Z.Masood was the man who resigned from the Eastern Command of PAF in 1971 when he was asked to do operations against bengalis........Masood resigned and the Chief found another YES MAN.

My friends shall know that first medal is NH, second is Hilal-e-Jurrat and the third is Sitara-e-Jurrat. Alam having world record and having 9 kills and 11 victories (considering 2 damages) was given the same medal as other pilots having just one kill.

In a mail, Murad sahib made a mention of Alam writing on his photo " I dont drink anymore". It is essential to mention here that Alam started an effort against drinking in air force at the time when drinking was common in the Officer's Mess. It was well practiced till Gen Zia forbade it.

Alam was not only a pilot, being a mujahid he continued his jihad in Afghanistan too.....according to his interview in Urdu Digest, I dont know him personnaly.

 

[Muradk]

One thing that comes to mind with regard to interceptions during Afghan war is the high command of PAF. F-16s came to Pakistan or say skill on them was achieved by 1983, on the initial batch at least. But no interceptions were made.

Russian/afghan planes did thousands of Pakistani airspace violations and still Mirages were not used for western border patrol. F-6s could not catch up with faster Migs. But Su-25 was not faster.

RoEs were so strict like that the debris should fall inside Pakistan and the plane should come at least 10 miles or something like that, I dont remember exactly the book of PAF history.

Indians did not think of such RoEs when they shot down our unarmed martime patrol Atlantique aircraft with several crew on 10 Aug 1999. That is again an event shrouded in mystery. Some sources say that the Escort was intentionally cancelled. Yes it is amazing that Atlantique was flying close to Indian border in TENSE times without any escort?

One may ask which squadron was responsible for providing escort......did some pilot again said "YES SIR"?

The atlantique incident needs good investigation......looks just like many more dark secrets......

ok our main topic was airspace violations, but they were not just violations,
these planes bombed pakistani population. Even chitral was not spared. Some chitrali people told me events of those attacks.

In the era of Anwar Shamim, it seems that pilots were not allowed to open fire on all intruders or killer of pakistanis. It was ACM Hakimullah who allowed full action and then we saw Falcons doing their business. Thats why I said some interviews will be good. It can be asked from Anwar Shamim that why he did not allow pilots to do justice with killers of pakistani people during Afghan war............

Anwar was commander of Fighter-bomber wing at Sargodha in 1965. The base commander of Sargodha was M Z Masood (corrent me if I am wrong). Alam was himself Squadron Commander. Now Alam says that a medal better than Sitara-e-Jurrat was recommended for him. Now think who made hurdles?

M.Z.Masood was the man who resigned from the Eastern Command of PAF in 1971 when he was asked to do operations against bengalis........Masood resigned and the Chief found another YES MAN.

My friends shall know that first medal is NH, second is Hilal-e-Jurrat and the third is Sitara-e-Jurrat. Alam having world record and having 9 kills and 11 victories (considering 2 damages) was given the same medal as other pilots having just one kill.

In a mail, Murad sahib made a mention of Alam writing on his photo " I dont drink anymore". It is essential to mention here that Alam started an effort against drinking in air force at the time when drinking was common in the Officer's Mess. It was well practiced till Gen Zia forbade it.

Alam was not only a pilot, being a mujahid he continued his jihad in Afghanistan too.....according to his interview in Urdu Digest, I dont know him personnaly.

shehbazi: Few of your points are right people ask me why these hero's retired so soon one reason fighting one war was enough fighting 2 and then not getting proper respect and credit was to much so they decided to leave PAF. It was not Anwar Shamin but Zia who ordered that no shooting without permission, we go for 4 Mig 21 from Shorkot by the time we get the message back they are already inside there Air Space. There was to much politics involved in our armed forces at Zia's time. The incident in which they shot our Navy plane was a cowardly move but they had warned us several times and so did we, India use to violate our air space and PAF and Navy use to do the same. Plus these navy guys used to push the limits ok lets go in a few more miles , a few more all clear a few more and them come back. That day their was a Mig 21 waiting for them just bad luck.
Anwar Shamim never held PAF back I will tell you one of the missions I did with my course mate Naeem Atta SJ 1971. 4th October 1979 I was commanding 9 Sqd in Shorkot we had Mirages over there we got new Cameras for the mirages and wanted to test them on the indians , Hakim Sahib was our base commander, I being a pathan we were very close friends one day he comes and says want to try the new cameras I said yes sir where do we go and he says Jaisalmer AFB India. So 2 of us me and Naeem Atta we flew at tree top level entered Indian Air space and our orders were not to engage at all cost Just take the photographs and get back. There radar picked us up just 1 min before the base so I call Naeem and say I will stay at 1000ft cover your back and you go for the photo shots. I still remember there were 23 mig21 standing in a straight line, I admit it was tempting Naeem turns to wards the base and call see the 2 Migs taking off and I say Roger don't worry about the Migs I will take care off them you just take the photograph and pull to 20000ft and head for home, Now naeem call back and says we cant engage and I say Roger, Now I see the 2 mig21 rolling I pulled up at 3000ft did a loop and positioned my self right Infront of the Migs now Naeem looks back and he starts talking in punjabi Oh ki Kurudia and I was don't worry , I see the 2 migs right infront of me comming towards me head on and I go right into them the Mig pilots were not expecting me to do that and they split like hell I leveled my self at 200 ft went over the Migs standing in line took some snaps full throttle and pulled up by that time I was .08 and in no time I went supersonic and Migs never got a chance to even chase us I am sure they must be things thanks God we are alive, Tho it was reckless on my part but seemed the right thing at that time. Now I entered Pak Air Space and Naeem is doing circles waiting for me, He asks what happed to the migs and I am laughing and telling him that man they will never forget me. While I say this Pakistan radar picks up migs and I thought it must be those 2 migs but no they were 4 now and inside pakistan. Hakim Sahib says in Pusto Stamore get them, I tell naeem to drop tanks and take the fight to 22000ft the Indian Migs when they saw we punched are tanks they knew now they are ready for a fight and they turned back may be they got orders to come back and not to engage God Knows. The next day the got the photos man they were beautiful. the photos are hanging in 9 sqd and the whole action we did. Now this is october 1979 , Now in 1984 I go for my Air Command and Staff college at Maxwell AFB Montgomery Alabama. There are officers from 50 countries attending that course and there was a Indian pilot a sardar gee.We became good friends and we used to party a lot officers getting togather having fun so I sit with the sardar gee his name was Sqd Ldr Charanjit S.Gill and we are talking about 71 war what planes he flew stuff like that and by chance I tell him this action we did back in 1979 and he says the mirage went in between the 2 migs and I was confused for a second and to my surprise he was one of the mig pilots Oh my god we laughed so loud that everyone thought that these 2 are drunk so I asked him why didn't you shoot he said you were to close for missiles and by the time I went for guns you had already gone between us we thought that you went all crazy so we waited for 2 other migs to take off and then shoot you but when we saw you dropping your fuel tanks we got orders to come back and not to engage.
shehbazi: I hope you understand now that we used to go into India once a month and they used to do the same.

In 1995 he was a Group captian and air attache of indian embassy UK now retired as an Air cdre.

 

[Blackpearl]

In one of the engagements, an Afghan plane, probably SU-25 was shot down. The pilot ejected, landed in Pak territory, and captured. His name was Colonel Alexzendar Rustkoi. He was returned to Russia. Later, that man rose to the appointment of Deputy Prersident of Russia.

 

[Muradk]

In one of the engagements, an Afghan plane, probably SU-25 was shot down. The pilot ejected, landed in Pak territory, and captured. His name was Colonel Alexzendar Rustkoi. He was returned to Russia. Later, that man rose to the appointment of Deputy Prersident of Russia.

8 April 1988 Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bokhari
No. 14 Squadron kamra , F-16A seriel 725
Athar who just got promoted to AVM shot 1 Soviet Su-25
Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, Soviet Air Force (ejected)
1 PAF F-16 Vs. 4 Soviet Su-25s. Night interception over Parachinar. Took him out with a sidewinder. Remaining 3 Su-25s bugged out.
Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, later Vice-President of Russia was taken prisoner by Pakistani authorities he is really unlucky if anyone of you have been to parachinar the terrain is rocky water flowing pretty fast he was hung upside down for atleat 3 hours from his shoot getting stuck on a side of a mountain. Army Rangers picked him up.

 

[Muradk]

Dear Murad Saab,

Does that mean PAF developed some fear against IAF in 1971, I beleive countries always use their best of assets and resources whenever they are in need and that was the best time to do that???

Sky coming this from me would sound unfair and every one will jump me, but every plane with Chuck Yeager went on a helicopter got photos , serial numbers, evidence, now we didn't pay him to lie but from the evidence he saw he said PAF had a 3 to 1 kill ratio against the IAF. well that means we did have our best in the air.

 

[Skywalker]

Sky coming this from me would sound unfair and every one will jump me, but every plane with Chuck Yeager went on a helicopter got photos , serial numbers, evidence, now we didn't pay him to lie but from the evidence he saw he said PAF had a 3 to 1 kill ratio against the IAF. well that means we did have our best in the air.

Dear Murad sb,

Thankyou for responding to my query, I am more reliefed now, I always enjoy tour comments especially whenever you share your own experiences with PAF.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

shehbazi: Few of your points are right people ask me why these hero's retired so soon one reason fighting one war was enough fighting 2 and then not getting proper respect and credit was to much so they decided to leave PAF. It was not Anwar Shamin but Zia who ordered that no shooting without permission, we go for 4 Mig 21 from Shorkot by the time we get the message back they are already inside there Air Space. There was to much politics involved in our armed forces at Zia's time. The incident in which they shot our Navy plane was a cowardly move but they had warned us several times and so did we, India use to violate our air space and PAF and Navy use to do the same. Plus these navy guys used to push the limits ok lets go in a few more miles , a few more all clear a few more and them come back. That day their was a Mig 21 waiting for them just bad luck.
Anwar Shamim never held PAF back I will tell you one of the missions I did with my course mate Naeem Atta SJ 1971. 4th October 1979 I was commanding 9 Sqd in Shorkot we had Mirages over there we got new Cameras for the mirages and wanted to test them on the indians , Hakim Sahib was our base commander, I being a pathan we were very close friends one day he comes and says want to try the new cameras I said yes sir where do we go and he says Jaisalmer AFB India. So 2 of us me and Naeem Atta we flew at tree top level entered Indian Air space and our orders were not to engage at all cost Just take the photographs and get back. There radar picked us up just 1 min before the base so I call Naeem and say I will stay at 1000ft cover your back and you go for the photo shots. I still remember there were 23 mig21 standing in a straight line, I admit it was tempting Naeem turns to wards the base and call see the 2 Migs taking off and I say Roger don't worry about the Migs I will take care off them you just take the photograph and pull to 20000ft and head for home, Now naeem call back and says we cant engage and I say Roger, Now I see the 2 mig21 rolling I pulled up at 3000ft did a loop and positioned my self right Infront of the Migs now Naeem looks back and he starts talking in punjabi Oh ki Kurudia and I was don't worry , I see the 2 migs right infront of me comming towards me head on and I go right into them the Mig pilots were not expecting me to do that and they split like hell I leveled my self at 200 ft went over the Migs standing in line took some snaps full throttle and pulled up by that time I was .08 and in no time I went supersonic and Migs never got a chance to even chase us I am sure they must be things thanks God we are alive, Tho it was reckless on my part but seemed the right thing at that time. Now I entered Pak Air Space and Naeem is doing circles waiting for me, He asks what happed to the migs and I am laughing and telling him that man they will never forget me. While I say this Pakistan radar picks up migs and I thought it must be those 2 migs but no they were 4 now and inside pakistan. Hakim Sahib says in Pusto Stamore get them, I tell naeem to drop tanks and take the fight to 22000ft the Indian Migs when they saw we punched are tanks they knew now they are ready for a fight and they turned back may be they got orders to come back and not to engage God Knows. The next day the got the photos man they were beautiful. the photos are hanging in 9 sqd and the whole action we did. Now this is october 1979 , Now in 1984 I go for my Air Command and Staff college at Maxwell AFB Montgomery Alabama. There are officers from 50 countries attending that course and there was a Indian pilot a sardar gee.We became good friends and we used to party a lot officers getting togather having fun so I sit with the sardar gee his name was Sqd Ldr Charanjit S.Gill and we are talking about 71 war what planes he flew stuff like that and by chance I tell him this action we did back in 1979 and he says the mirage went in between the 2 migs and I was confused for a second and to my surprise he was one of the mig pilots Oh my god we laughed so loud that everyone thought that these 2 are drunk so I asked him why didn't you shoot he said you were to close for missiles and by the time I went for guns you had already gone between us we thought that you went all crazy so we waited for 2 other migs to take off and then shoot you but when we saw you dropping your fuel tanks we got orders to come back and not to engage.shehbazi: I hope you understand now that we used to go into India once a month and they used to do the same.

In 1995 he was a Group captian and air attache of indian embassy UK now retired as an Air cdre.

SIR this has to be the post of the year! i really enjoy reading ex-airforce pilots posts thats you SIR and X_man! god bless all of you the "lion of pakistan"!!

btw in the book "GREAT AIR BATTLES OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE"
chapter "It is the man behind the Gun"
the story of a mig-21 shot down by Flt Lt Maqsood, also has similar incident of knowing the enemy!
"Flt Lt Tejwant Singh had ironically gone down to the sabre, an aircraft that he had himself trained on during the combat crew training course done in USA in 1964. Lts M Arshad Choudhry and Salim Baig Mirza were Tejwant's course mates at Nellis AFB, USA. in a twist of fate, baig was there to cheer up Tejwant when the later was in custody as a POW in Rawalpindi. Maqsood Amir also briefly met his victim during the latter's transit to the POW camp."

Flt Lt Maqsood Flt Lt Mirza were up chasing Tejwant's Mig.. the story must had ended with Mirza taking the kill of the victim he saw earlier!

 

[Muradk]

SIR this has to be the post of the year! i really enjoy reading ex-airforce pilots posts thats you SIR and X_man! god bless all of you the "lion of pakistan"!!

btw in the book "GREAT AIR BATTLES OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE"
chapter "It is the man behind the Gun"
the story of a mig-21 shot down by Flt Lt Maqsood, also has similar incident of knowing the enemy!
"Flt Lt Tejwant Singh had ironically gone down to the sabre, an aircraft that he had himself trained on during the combat crew training course done in USA in 1964. Lts M Arshad Choudhry and Salim Baig Mirza were Tejwant's course mates at Nellis AFB, USA. in a twist of fate, baig was there to cheer up Tejwant when the later was in custody as a POW in Rawalpindi. Maqsood Amir also briefly met his victim during the latter's transit to the POW camp."

Flt Lt Maqsood Flt Lt Mirza were up chasing Tejwant's Mig.. the story must had ended with Mirza taking the kill of the victim he saw earlier!

Its Ironic how you want to kill the other guy when you are doing your duty and then you met the same person out side paksitan he becomes a good friend. The first time I took my children to waga border they were 7 and 9 years old and they thought that when they see indians they will have 2 or 3 heads I know it sounds funny but its true when they met the indians we met a family who said we love to come to Pakistan my childern were totally surprised, and then the whole world went upside down when they started asking me questions WHY do we fight with them Why did we fight with them and it becomes hard for a father to expalin who's job is totally the opposite.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Its Ironic how you want to kill the other guy when you are doing your duty and then you met the same person out side paksitan he becomes a good friend. The first time I took my children to waga border they were 7 and 9 years old and they thought that when they see indians they will have 2 or 3 heads I know it sounds funny but its true when they met the indians we met a family who said we love to come to Pakistan my childern were totally surprised, and then the whole world went upside down when they started asking me questions WHY do we fight with them Why did we fight with them and it becomes hard for a father to expalin who's job is totally the opposite.

lol....
i know how its like.... i have been living overseas for about 7 years and had multinational school mates.. believe me or not i must be the only pakistani to ever visit Israeli ambassador’s house for quite few times. this is about 4 years ago back in Georgia. luckly he was also military enthusiastic though he never talked about arab muslim -jews wars but did showed off about F-16I F-15I there military might. i used to get pissed off but we still were good friends.. and when i moved to crappy lil country called "botswana" i was boared as hell.. but then this indian dude pops in the class room one day... hello i am Ravi Singh..lol.. straight away we started talkin about who won 65 71 99 wars... who has the best pilots.. we both fought each other on these controversial topics, but were totally cool hanging out..
but the fact is... they are not even 10% of the population who have no problem talkin to us or makin good friend ship.. but plezz do go to youtube and see how much hatred there is for pakistan..
hell with this friend ship between india pakistan!

anywayss.. SIR please tell me 65 71 PAF kills on Air and ground?
all sites have very different claims..?