Hate-Speech Hypocrites

[Developereo]

You just stated in your previous post:

however deluded Holocaust revisionism might be, there is no justification for laws outlawing it. Truth stands on its own merit; it does not need to be protected by laws.

These are your words (or you think an Indian is posting on your behalf to malign you?).

Now tell me if you are not trying to retract laws related to holocaust. Or something is amiss even from an infantile logic 101?

On one hand you say you don't deny holocaust (your words)
then you go off like a village Mullah from Iran and say there is no need for the very laws related to holocaust.

There are no laws criminalizing Creationism or Flat Earthers because the absurdity of their claim itself is enough to debunk them in the face of science. Similarly, anyone who denies the Holocaust can be shown to be an idiot with simple historical facts and actual locations.

The issue is that the free speech mantra claims that all speech should be acceptable and any offence caused is the problem of the listener, not the speaker. The US remains the most true to that philosophy and has resisted calls to control Holocaust speech. It allows the Nazi party; it allows Terry Jones and the radical Islamists. The US is probably the most consistent in its application of speech laws. However, many European countries are not and my initial post #2 highlighted the inconsistency of the Australian visa office. That decision, like I wrote, has been debated on Australian media.

 

[Developereo]

Even Jews from Israel will tell you that those settlers are orthodox Jews and are morons. I have lots of friends from Israel and they say the same things. Same with evangelical christians, who are mostly idiots.

You wrote that 'no Israeli' uses religion, and I showed you examples. Now you are backtracking and saying they are just 'morons'. You should ask your Israeli friends about the power of the Likud party and its major support base.

These religious fundamentalists that you see on youtube, where they abuse Christians, Palestinians (you know these orthodox women calling palestinian women "Sharmootas") etc is not the real Israel. Israelis are quite cool and most of them are liberal and want a 2 state solution. That is actually reality. If you are gonna base your judgements based on a few youtube videos then you are misinformed is all I will tell you.

No youtube videos. Learn about the Christian Coalition and the power of the Christian Right in American politics. There are plenty of academic sources available.

Sure, so its disputed territory. Just like Israel says. Not occupied. There is no colonialism or racism as most allege.

The Israeli Constitution guarantees that any Jewish person anywhere in the world is automatically an Israeli citizen; to be a Jew is to be an Israeli.

However, the displaced Palestinians can not return to their homes because that would jeopardize the 'Jewish character' of Israel.

That is racism.

 

[vsdoc]

However, the displaced Palestinians can not return to their homes because that would jeopardize the 'Jewish character' of Israel.

That is racism.

No, that is re-Jewification of the Promised Land.

Why re-invent the wheel?

Learn from the masters!

 

[Developereo]

Let's be Crystal clear- You are not asking for consistency in speech laws. You are asking for lumping of all countries laws to accommodate you. How so? Because the issue for freedom of speech in the US ( where this act took place) is now sullied by you to freedom of speech in other countries because once again, you want to spread the negativity and your victim card- by NOT telling your brothers and sisters- "Yup in the US, WHERE THIS TOOK PLACE!~ there is freedom of speech for all". Oh no- you rather use this get on the soap box of " me and my agenda to globalize my victimization"

Separating the wheat from the chaff and focusing on the only salient point in your post, the debate here is about freedom of speech in general and my factual and civil post #2, to which you replied in your predictably vitriolic way in post #3 thus dragging the thread into the mud, was about the Australian hypocrisy.

As I have stated numerous times, the US is perhaps the most consistent in its application of speech laws.

 

[mfreak]

I'd avoid the effort to drag Israel and Palestine in this thread for the fear of derailment and utter loss of focus. You know it and I know it, the issue is very emotional and thus can easily become the source of distraction.

Thank you.

I was just responding to his post.

The whole issue is to use the actions of some extremists to label an entire community

Sure, where did I deny that. That is something I repeatedly say. But what has the rest of the muslim community done to prevent it? Here on this forum, you argue against racism against muslims. Am with ya. But which guy from Pakistan is supporting FaujHistorian who presents a more tolerant image? You are fighting with him to justify your arguments that everyone else is evil, while you never criticize those that actually pull you down as a community. That is the whole problem. You are not objective yourself, yet you expect everyone else to be.

I don't want to derail but I can bring out similar examples of Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, Christian parents doing similar things. It's just that, when Muslims are involved, it becomes front page news.

I would say similar things for all of them. Recently a German court banned circumcision and my Jewish friends consider it bullshit. Am sure muslims do too. But I would say, that the German court was right. Atleast from my perspective, no one is snipping off anything from me

We are talking about people who question, not deniers. If someone denies in the face of evidence, I would call it stupidity. You are right that it could be racism in some cases but that brings us to the above case of bigotry against Muslims where the actions of a few are deliberately extrapolated to impugn an entire community. If one case of racism/bigotry is wrong, then so is the other. Keep in mind that much of Islamophobic rhetoric has an openly avowed goal of cleansing Europe of Muslims, which is what the Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda was also all about.

Holocaust denial is about the deniers. Its not about people that question.

Secondly, racism sucks yes. I am heavily against racism, be it against black people, brown people, muslims, Chinese or whoever. BUT this racism is found in muslims too. Am talking about stereotyping muslims, because of the way muslims present themselves to the outside world in Europe. Even if it is only a few that do it, the rest dont do anything about it. An example of such people who dont do anything useful is YOU. An example of a person who is trying to break stereotypes is FaujHistorian. Who do you think comes across as the more tolerant one?

 

[untitled]

Is there really that much of a difference between a holocaust denier and someone who insults Mohammed? ...

That is exactly why some Muslims fall in the trap of Holocaust denial because it is the only thing being close to a "State religion" in the west especially Europe.

 

[mfreak]

You wrote that 'no Israeli' uses religion, and I showed you examples. Now you are backtracking and saying they are just 'morons'. You should ask your Israeli friends about the power of the Likud party and its major support base.

Am talking about the majority of the Israelis, who are good. Religious extremists are always violent and moronic. I should have rephrased.

No youtube videos. Learn about the Christian Coalition and the power of the Christian Right in American politics. There are plenty of academic sources available.

Yeah I know all about them. I am a progressive, what do you think I think of them? And just because they lend support to Israel, does not mean anything. Even the EDL lends support to ISrael while also making friends with the BNP who are holocaust deniers. You think they have any credibility?

The Israeli Constitution guarantees that any Jewish person anywhere in the world is automatically an Israeli citizen; to be a Jew is to be an Israeli.

However, the displaced Palestinians can not return to their homes because that would jeopardize the 'Jewish character' of Israel.

That is racism.

Israel is a Jewish state. Hence that is not racism. They have to maintain a Jewish majority or their entire fabric of society will fail.

 

[vsdoc]

Israel is a Jewish state. Hence that is not racism. They have to maintain a Jewish majority or their entire fabric of society will fail.

What are you saying?????

Toba toba

I thought only Islamic states were allowed.

The rest should necessarily be progressive and secular.

 

[FaujHistorian]

That is exactly why some Muslims fall in the trap of Holocaust denial because it is the only thing being close to a "State religion" in the west especially Europe.

I beg to differ, my dear poster.

Muslims pick up on holocaust denial based on their intellectual roots in the Middle East and specifically in Egypt. Mufti-Azam palestine was sitting in the lap of Nazis long before Israel came into being. Why? Because the hateful ideology spouted by Nazis in fact matched closely with the Arab nationalism.

Pakistanis do not realize this, and just blindly follow Arabs as if Arab nationalism has the same divine origin as Islam itself.

Didn't mean to argue with you. Just wanted to keep the record straight.

peace to you.

 

[JayAtl]

Separating the wheat from the chaff and focusing on the only salient point in your post, the debate here is about freedom of speech in general and my factual and civil post #2, to which you replied in your predictably vitriolic way in post #3 thus dragging the thread into the mud, was about the Australian hypocrisy.

As I have stated numerous times, the US is perhaps the most consistent in its application of speech laws.

No No there is no separating the wheat from the chaff is what we see from you.

You don't make an effort to add a " clarity" ever, No siry Bob. You just throw stuff into flames to fan it. Because clarity works against that message and meme you have here.

Your fellow ditto heads replies to it shows that they fall for your exact agenda. Grasping at whatever straws to sully the effort into a " look we are victimized again"

This is a classic diversion used by mullahs too. "America gives us flood aid, america gives us support in billions. Bah! but look over there - shiny object called Terry Jones. That's the america / agenda I need you to follow. Let's discuss the bad and screw the good for negativity gets me attention."

Fauj alternatively is trying to get his people to look and balance both sides. Then , you who sits in Australia, the devout muslim who went to the christian land- accuse him of being an anti patriot and India lover.

 

[Developereo]

But what has the rest of the muslim community done to prevent it?

This, again, is the familiar refrain used to justify demonization. Why can't the blacks/Jews/Italians/latinos/... control their community and stop people from committing crimes, etc.?

FaujHistorian

My beef with FaujHistorian, whose posts I agree with (except the last one attacking me), is not the content but the relevance. This is the same issue I have with many of the posters here.

For the nth time, the debate here is not to defend Holocaust denial, but the right to be stupid and offensive. It is to examine the double standard where some sensibilities are protected by law, while others are not.

I can give you more examples just from Australia. There is a Senator who has been vomiting bile against Muslims for the longest time and kept getting away with it. Recently, he said something against gays and was immediately forced to resign. Another shock jock rants all the time against Muslims, Arabs, etc. Politicians kept protecting his 'freedom of speech'; in fact he was the darling of the conservatives. Now he said something about the PM and is in the hot seat. Sponsors right and left are deserting him, politicians from all sides are denouncing him, there is a campaign calling for him to be fired.

The point is that all societies have their sensibilities.

 

[untitled]

I beg to differ, my dear poster.

Muslims pick up on holocaust denial based on their intellectual roots in the Middle East and specifically in Egypt. Mufti-Azam palestine was sitting in the lap of Nazis long before Israel came into being. Why? Because the hateful ideology spouted by Nazis in fact matched closely with the Arab nationalism.

A lot of people admired the Nazis before WWII including many in the British royal family. Ever heard of the Duke of Windsor ?

So all the Palestinians should be held accountable for the views of some Mufti ?

 

[Rig Vedic]

"Bah! but look over there - shiny object called Terry Jones. That's the america / agenda I need you to follow. Let's discuss the bad and screw the good for negativity gets me attention."

Actually American toleration for Terry Jones' free speech rights is a good thing. Holocaust denial is also not illegal in the US (distasteful though it may be) and it's not as if the sky is falling on their heads.

 

[humanfirst]

Guys what are the areas where freedom of speech is restricted in USA and europe apart from the one against holocaust..?Does any laws exist there against racial abuse(Like calling a black guy nigger..)Or against anti semitic remarks..?Are there laws against disrespecting national figures like founding fathers or national emblems like national flags..?

 

[Developereo]

Am talking about the majority of the Israelis, who are good. Religious extremists are always violent and moronic. I should have rephrased.

Likud got voted into power democratically on the basis of their agenda on dealing with Palestinians.

Yeah I know all about them. I am a progressive, what do you think I think of them? And just because they lend support to Israel, does not mean anything. Even the EDL lends support to ISrael while also making friends with the BNP who are holocaust deniers. You think they have any credibility?

Does the Christian Right have credibility in American politics? You betcha.

Israel is a Jewish state. Hence that is not racism. They have to maintain a Jewish majority or their entire fabric of society will fail.

Deciding citizenship on the basis of race is racism. You can justify it, rationalize it, or try to whitewash it, but that won't change the reality of what it is.

There is a reason Nelson Mandela equated Israel with apartheid-era South Africa.