Hate-Speech Hypocrites

[vsdoc]

Innocence of Muslims was a racist movie, because it hardly expressed any view, it hardly criticized religion. It only stereotyped muslims and that was its purpose. The only difference here is, that muslims immediately started rioting, burning buildings and killing people. Such volatility completely takes away any credibility from your grievances.

Muslims are not a race or a people or a nationality or a linguistic group.

Yet there are some generic similarities in behavior patterns globally that can only by proxy or want of a better explanation be temporally and causally linked to the one common factor linking them.

I guess that is what it boils down to.

Hate Speech versus Hate Ideology.

I know what the world would prefer as the lesser of two evils.

 

[Developereo]

the racism against muslims are brought on by muslims themselves.

This has been the standard excuse to justify bigotry throughout history. It won't wash.

Asking for evidence of holocaust is free speech.

Asking for evidence is equivalent to expressing skepticism. Why would you ask for evidence if you already accept something as true?

Hate speech is racism. Holocaust denial is racism.

Let's set aside outright denial, which is so out there that few people would subscribe to it.

Let's talk instead about questioning specifics. Therein lies your circular logic.

Questioning any aspect of the Holocaust is racism.
Why?
Because only racists question any aspect of the Holocaust.

 

[mfreak]

Because it strips away the self-righteous victimhood of the Israeli narrative that it is just a recongregation of a displaced people who have an unalienable right to the land as ordained by God himself.

Lets not get into a religious debate. Neither does any Israeli argue about the legitimacy of Israel based on religion. Show me one Israeli who does? What they collectively believe in as the "Holy land" or God given land is purely their belief because of their adherence to Judaism. This has got nothing to do with ISrael's legitimacy according to international law and politics. Neither can it be used to justify it.

Politically speaking, Israel is right. And Israel is indeed right in its efforts to protect her country and her citizens. We cannot go back to biblical times and then argue about who has the right to live there. This is nonsensical.

Muslims are not a race or a people or a nationality or a linguistic group.

Sure call it xenophobic then.

Yet there are some generic similarities in behavior patterns globally that can only by proxy or want of a better explanation be temporally and causally linked to the one common factor linking them.

"Generic similarities" are gross generalizations. Always. Generally speaking we have to always look at people on a case by case basis and judge them individually. And that is why movies like these are racist. But yes, I do see why people might generalize in the first place atleast when it comes to muslims. That is why I said, muslims have to work toward alleviating this racism/xenophobia by behaving better. That would be the first step.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Let me understand what you saying.

1. You do not support violent reaction to Mohammad pbuh related cartoons or movies. Correct?
2. You do not deny Jewish holocaust. Correct?


Let me know and we can discuss it further.


peace to you

Correct on both counts.

My point is that, however deluded Holocaust revisionism might be, there is no justification for laws outlawing it. Truth stands on its own merit; it does not need to be protected by laws.

So, when Western countries enact laws prohibiting certain topics which offend their sensibilities, but allow others under the rubric of 'free speech', then they are being hypocritical. When Muslim extremists spout crap against others, it is called 'hate speech' and censured, but when Islamophobes spout their nonsense, it is called 'free speech' and celebrated by mainstream media as intellectual discourse.

It is this fundamental double standard which is the issue here.

OK so I understand your stance on the following:

1. You do not support violent reaction to Mohammad pbuh related cartoons or movies.
2. You do not deny Jewish holocaust.

Then I urge you to not go off like a mad man (my interpretation) against the laws related to holocaust. Just read your rants I quoted above. You talk big words and don't ever realize how they contradict within your text and more importantly contradict the teaching of Islam. Please repent, do tauba, and change your course.

Please go for a peaceful quest and work with Europeans (Western home country) for enacting laws that protect Jewish people AND all other minorities.

It took at least a century of immense suffering by European Jews to get these laws enacted. Not just in Nazi Germany, they were tortured and subjugated all over Europe.

Muslims on the other hand have been treated with kid gloves and thus they have not seen even 1% of the scale of violence that Jews in Europe experienced. However if you want further refinement of hate speech, then work on it peacefully.

But I urge you not to try and snatch away the precious little protections offered to Jews. Everytime you do it, you come across like a neo-Nazi, and this will further destroy your credibility as a peaceful European Muslim (or a citizen in the West). Please learn more about the history of your adopted homeland before you spout like a rabid Mullah imported from a tiny village from Iran or Pakistan.

As I have clearly described on the first page of this thread, Muslims have Quranic obligation to strive for strengthening Human Rights instead of attacking them.


Hope you get this time


peace to you, and peace to all.

 

[Developereo]

Lets not get into a religious debate. Neither does any Israeli argue about the legitimacy of Israel based on religion. Show me one Israeli who does? What they collectively believe in as the "Holy land" or God given land is purely their belief because of their adherence to Judaism. This has got nothing to do with ISrael's legitimacy according to international law and politics. Neither can it be used to justify it.

I guess you haven't heard the Israeli settlers talk about their God given right to the land and Abraham's Covenant, nor the evangelical Christians in the US who are the staunchest supporters of Israel. *For them, it's all about religion.

Politically speaking, Israel is right. And Israel is indeed right in its efforts to protect her country and her citizens. We cannot go back to biblical times and then argue about who has the right to live there. This is nonsensical.

We're not talking about biblical times, but 1948.

You are right that Israel is a political entity recognized by most of the world, but there are disputed areas around the world which are still contested by other parties. Israel is no different in that respect.

 

[mfreak]

This has been the standard excuse to justify bigotry throughout history. It won't wash.

Sorry. *shrugs* If people see muslims as extremists, its not because there are no extremists. Its because all of those things they think about muslims have actually been done by muslims at some time or the other. Especially in the middle east. So yes, they are indeed responsible for all of the racism/xenophobia/negative image.

Take the recent example of the girl in Germany. True to stereotype, she wanted to be segregated from "bare chested" boys. And she was a kid FFS. This kind of intrusive, separatist attitude only helps to further the stereotype. Not break it. When someone asks for such special rules, people will immediately see that the culture that this girl is trying to follow, is extremely conservative and backward atleast compared to the liberal Germany. And people generally do not wanna associate themselves with such people.

Asking for evidence is equivalent to expressing skepticism. Why would you ask for evidence if you already accept something as true?

I never accept something as true before I see evidence. Before you accept something as true, you ask for evidence. I researched both sides of the story and came to the understanding that the holocaust is true.

Secondly skepticism is not denial. Hope you understand the difference. Denial DESPITE proof is the problem here. Denial without any education, again is a problem albeit a problem brought on by ignorance.

Questioning any aspect of the Holocaust is racism.
Why?
Because only racists question any aspect of the Holocaust.

Questioning is not wrong. Questioning is akin to attempting to get educated. After I provide proof, if you deny the holocaust, then that is racist. There is a difference between questioning and denial. People that deny, never question. They simply state things not based on facts, but based on their biased beliefs.

 

[Developereo]

OK so I understand your stance on the following:

1. You do not support violent reaction to Mohammad pbuh related cartoons or movies.
2. You do not deny Jewish holocaust.

Then I urge you to not go off like a mad man (my interpretation) against the laws related to holocaust. Just read your rants I quoted above. You talk big words and don't ever realize how they contradict within your text and more importantly contradict the teaching of Islam. Please repent, do tauba, and change your course.

Please go for a peaceful quest and work with Europeans (Western home country) for enacting laws that protect Jewish people AND all other minorities.

It took at least a century of immense suffering by European Jews to get these laws enacted. Not just in Nazi Germany, they were tortured and subjugated all over Europe.

Muslims on the other hand have been treated with kid gloves and thus they have not seen even 1% of the scale of violence that Jews in Europe experienced. However if you want further refinement of hate speech, then work on it peacefully.

But I urge you not to try and snatch away the precious little protections offered to Jews. Everytime you do it, you come across like a neo-Nazi, and this will further destroy your credibility as a peaceful European Muslim (or a citizen in the West). Please learn more about the history of your adopted homeland before you spout like a rabid Mullah imported from a tiny village from Iran or Pakistan.

As I have clearly described on the first page of this thread, Muslims have Quranic obligation to strive for strengthening Human Rights instead of attacking them.


Hope you get this time


peace to you, and peace to all.

Yet another long-winded ignorant rant designed to garner thanks from the Indians.

Show me which statement is contradictory? Asking for consistency in speech laws is not attacking anybody; it is asking for equal treatment for all.

As I have written, there are mainstream debates, including on Australian TV, discussing precisely this dichotomy between laws regulating Holocaust speech and those regulating anti-Islam rhetoric. Most of these debaters could run circles around you in their knowledge of legal matters. None of these people are Muslim. All of them are white Westerners. Addressing this topic is not anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi.

I suggest you excuse yourself from subjects where you clearly have ZERO knowledge rather than issuing sermonizing fatwas to hide your ignorance.

 

[vsdoc]

Stereotyping? Generic anomalization?

Are we to ignore and attribute to coincidence the fact that there is not one non-muslim country in the world with a sizable or near sizable muslim population where the muslims are well integrated into the mainstream and not in conflict with the indigenous population?

Do you know what is the COMMON LINK between 23 of 25 global conflict hot spots in the world?

Not just today but over the past few decades?

Everyone has a beef with Muslims.

Everyone MUST be wrong!

Khodai khodai ......

P.S. Look ma, here comes the mulla with his fatwas again!

 

[mfreak]

I guess you haven't heard the Israeli settlers talk about their God given right to the land and Abraham's Covenant, nor the evangelical Christians in the US who are the staunchest supporters of Israel. *For them, it's all about religion.

Even Jews from Israel will tell you that those settlers are orthodox Jews and are morons. I have lots of friends from Israel and they say the same things. Same with evangelical christians, who are mostly idiots.

These religious fundamentalists that you see on youtube, where they abuse Christians, Palestinians (you know these orthodox women calling palestinian women "Sharmootas") etc is not the real Israel. Israelis are quite cool and most of them are liberal and want a 2 state solution. That is actually reality. If you are gonna base your judgements based on a few youtube videos then you are misinformed is all I will tell you.

I used to play an online strategy war game called Battledawn. It was written by an Israeli guy. I have been playing for the last 6 years and I have met tons of Israelis on there. They have even visited India and we met up. When I travelled to the US, some of them came down to vegas and we met up. I can tell you from this personal experience that they are not racists or zionists that wanna genocide all the palestinians.

This is what they say most of the time - "I only hate those that say they wanna kill me!!". I dont think it is that unjustified.

A militarily, economically and politically more powerful nation could agree to coexist, but there are elements within Palestine that wont let that happen. BTW, this also does not mean ALL palestinians dont want it. Infact in that game I played we had a guy from TulKarem (WestBank) who used to play in the same team as these Israeli guys and myself. And they could respect and understand each other (Despite the fact that most of these Israeli guys fought in the Gaza war and in the 2006 Lebanon war). Without fighting. So yes I have had this experience where everyday folks actually want a solution, but people like the Hamas, who are the cancer of that society, wont let anything good happen. This is where broad generalizations and racism spreads from.

We're not talking about biblical times, but 1948.

You are right that Israel is a political entity recognized by most of the world, but there are disputed areas around the world which are still contested by other parties. Israel is no different in that respect

.

Sure, so its disputed territory. Just like Israel says. Not occupied. There is no colonialism or racism as most allege.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yet another long-winded ignorant rant designed to garner thanks from the Indians.

Show me which statement is contradictory? Asking for consistency in speech laws is not attacking anybody; it is asking for equal treatment for all.

As I have written, there are mainstream debates, including on Australian TV, discussing precisely this dichotomy between laws regulating Holocaust speech and those regulating anti-Islam rhetoric. Most of these debaters could run circles around you in their knowledge of legal matters. Addressing this topic is not anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi.

I suggest you excuse yourself from subjects where you clearly have ZERO knowledge rather than issuing sermonizing fatwas to hide your ignorance.

You just stated in your previous post:

however deluded Holocaust revisionism might be, there is no justification for laws outlawing it. Truth stands on its own merit; it does not need to be protected by laws.

These are your words (or you think an Indian is posting on your behalf to malign you?).

Now tell me if you are not trying to retract laws related to holocaust. Or something is amiss even from an infantile logic 101?

On one hand you say you don't deny holocaust (your words)
then you go off like a village Mullah from Iran and say there is no need for the very laws related to holocaust.

Who are you? And what is your education level and background?

Why so much contradiction?


peace to you my dear poster, peace to all.


peace to you

 

[anon45]

Hindus are dirty pagans, Hinduism is an insult to human intellect. Those backward cow worshippers (No hate speech of course, don't take it personally).

And India is one of the dirtiest countries on earth with dirty people everywhere....

It should be noted this is a privately owned forum, you will probably not be arrested for these comments, but you could be given a vacation from this forum...at the very least they should be deleted.

Just because the government allows it doesn't mean private establishments won't kick you out and people won't tend to think lowly of you... and they have that right.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Even Jews from Israel will tell you that those settlers are orthodox Jews and are morons.

I'd avoid the effort to drag Israel and Palestine in this thread for the fear of derailment and utter loss of focus. You know it and I know it, the issue is very emotional and thus can easily become the source of distraction.

Thank you.

 

[Developereo]

Sorry. *shrugs* If people see muslims as extremists, its not because there are no extremists. Its because all of those things they think about muslims have actually been done by muslims at some time or the other. Especially in the middle east. So yes, they are indeed responsible for all of the racism/xenophobia/negative image.

The whole issue is to use the actions of some extremists to label an entire community. Has been done with Italians, Greeks, blacks, latinos, Jews, and now Muslims. That is the definition of racism/bigotry.

Take the recent example of the girl in Germany.

I don't want to derail but I can bring out similar examples of Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, Christian parents doing similar things. It's just that, when Muslims are involved, it becomes front page news.

There is a difference between questioning and denial. People that deny, never question. They simply state things not based on facts, but based on their biased beliefs.

We are talking about people who question, not deniers. If someone denies in the face of evidence, I would call it stupidity. You are right that it could be racism in some cases but that brings us to the above case of bigotry against Muslims where the actions of a few are deliberately extrapolated to impugn an entire community. If one case of racism/bigotry is wrong, then so is the other. Keep in mind that much of Islamophobic rhetoric has an openly avowed goal of cleansing Europe of Muslims, which is what the Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda was also all about.

 

[JayAtl]

Yet another long-winded ignorant rant designed to garner thanks from the Indians.

Show me which statement is contradictory? Asking for consistency in speech laws is not attacking anybody; it is asking for equal treatment for all.

As I have written, there are mainstream debates, including on Australian TV, discussing precisely this dichotomy between laws regulating Holocaust speech and those regulating anti-Islam rhetoric. Most of these debaters could run circles around you in their knowledge of legal matters. None of these people are Muslim. All of them are white Westerners. Addressing this topic is not anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi.

I suggest you excuse yourself from subjects where you clearly have ZERO knowledge rather than issuing sermonizing fatwas to hide your ignorance.

I'll ignore the rest of your post because it is as aptly said the rantings of a mad man surrounded by nightmares of black helicopters.

But I will take up the very first sentence you wrote. You think his( FaujHistorian's) agenda is to get thanks from the Indians. So let's look at his agenda and both the global and domestic impact of it. I presume you are at least a part time Pakistani patriot and not just another rabble rouser without a cause. I have to then ask- how's your agenda helping Pakistan vs his? .

Your agenda is in full flow now ( mullah's and you are on the same page). Screeching for false causes, pushing a continued victimization card as an excuse to push more hate for all under the guise of Zionist , Hindu, christian persecution of the sole Muslims--- how is that formula working for you? - Well , I know personally for you, it is not making a difference to your living standards in Australia- mate!

At some point one may ask, is it time to stop digging? Is it time to try looking at all sides...

I would say he( Fauj) is more of a patriot and the true keeper of this brothers, while you are for a continued misery and illiteracy. Same old, age old upbringing of " we must demand" "we must always speak against the other side, never introspectively", " the Jews The Jews The Jews! ( in your case you can replace with everyone else to suit that days meme)"-

How's that working for you? Is it beyond the frying pan and fully immersed into the flame yet for you?

Palestine- it's ironical that when the Jews aka Zionist for you, even if you try to nuance it- we ain't buying it,- Ironical that when the Chinese demand islands under centuries old maps theory, you jump up and down in your support of their claim. But when Jews do it to claim their land- Oh no! the goose changes therefore the gander of your opinion flips.

Let's be Crystal clear- You are not asking for consistency in speech laws. You are asking for lumping of all countries laws to accommodate you. How so? Because the issue for freedom of speech in the US ( where this act took place) is now sullied by you to freedom of speech in other countries because once again, you want to spread the negativity and your victim card- by NOT telling your brothers and sisters- "Yup in the US, WHERE THIS TOOK PLACE!~ there is freedom of speech for all". Oh no- you rather use this get on the soap box of " me and my agenda to globalize my victimization"

 

[vsdoc]

I'll ignore the rest of your post because it is as aptly said the rantings of a mad man surrounded by nightmares of black helicopters.

But I will take up the very first sentence you wrote. You think his( FaujHistorian's) agenda is to get thanks from the Indians. So let's look at his agenda and both the global and domestic impact of it. I presume you are at least a part time Pakistani patriot and not just another rabble rouser without a cause. I have to then ask- how's your agenda helping Pakistan vs his? .

Your agenda is in full flow now ( mullah's and you are on the same page). Screeching for false causes, pushing a continued victimization card as an excuse to push more hate for all under the guise of Zionist , Hindu, christian persecution of the sole Muslims--- how is that formula working for you? - Well , I know personally for you, it is not making a difference to your living standards in Australia- mate!

At some point one may ask, is it time to stop digging? Is it time to try looking at all sides...

I would say he( Fauj) is more of a patriot and the true keeper of this brothers, while you are for a continued misery and illiteracy. Same old, age old upbringing of " we must demand" "we must always speak against the other side, never introspectively", " the Jews The Jews The Jews! ( in your case you can replace with everyone else to suit that days meme)"-

How's that working for you? Is it beyond the frying pan and fully immersed into the flame yet for you?

Palestine- it's ironical that when the Jews aka Zionist for you, even if you try to nuance it- we ain't buying it,- Ironical that when the Chinese demand islands under centuries old maps theory, you jump up and down in your support of their claim. But when Jews do it to claim their land- Oh no! the goose changes therefore the gander of your opinion flips.

Master .....