Hate-Speech Hypocrites

[Developereo]

Do you see the flaw in your argument?

Where's the flaw?

Statements which can be defended by strength of facts and empirical evidence don't need the protection of the law.

Developero is taking a beating...but bearing up like a trooper!.

Beating, shmeating!

Bring it on!

By the way...this Hasbara guy has disappeared...not a sock-puppet...is he, Developero?

I don't need an alter-ego; my regular one is big enough

 

[Icecreamcart]

No one's talking about denial, but questioning specific claims.

Again, like I wrote, being a Flat Earther or Creationist is not a criminal offence, and neither should be Holocaust denial. It should be despised, mocked, ridiculed, but not criminalized.

Do you see the flaw in your argument?

He makes a good point. Holocaust denial, to the core is denying a specific historical event existed as depicted in popular media, in varying degrees.

Is it that categorically different from other unsubstantiated examples of historical revisionism?

Holocaust denial rightfully gets a bad rap, but it is treated in a special manner from other examples of the same category.

Cool!

What you forgot to mention is they are all also Muslims now.

I am sure the Israelis would not mind the Palestinians joining them post their Bar Mitzvahs as kosher Jews.

Islam burst out of Arabia into North Africa, the ME and Asia through both trade and war.

Not that different from the expansion of Christianity into Northern Europe.

 

[angeldust]

Islam burst out of Arabia into North Africa, the ME and Asia through both trade and war.

Not that different from the expansion of Christianity into Northern Europe.

Cool!

So the war continues. As does the trade.

 

[MilSpec]

Where's the flaw?

Statements which can be defended by strength of facts and empirical evidence don't need the protection of the law.

Creationism, new earth stuff is fiction; It is not taken by any intellectual seriously (also religion in general but lets not go there); Whereas denial of holocaust when issued as a blanket statement is seen as being hand in glove with nazi sympathizers and reeks of anti jewish sentiment, especially from someone who primarily identifies himself as muslim defendant; as hitler was endorsed by the muslim religious clergy. With most of the arab world representing the angry muslim stereotype entangled in conflict with israel, not primarily due to palestine but due to judaism.

When such magnanimous tragedy like the holocaust is denied, it almost seems that you are either a white supremacist neo nazi or a extremist arab.

 

[Developereo]

Creationism, new earth stuff is fiction; It is not taken by any intellectual seriously (also religion in general but lets not go there);

Here's what I meant:
- the Earth is round. People claiming that the Earth is flat don't go to jail because their claims can be debunked easily.
- evolution happened. People who believe in Creationism don't go to jail because their claims can be debunked using science.
- Holocaust happened. People who deny it or question various aspects shouldn't go to jail because their claims can be debunked with historical sites.

Whereas denial of holocaust when issued as a blanket statement is seen as being hand in glove with nazi sympathizers and reeks of anti jewish sentiment, especially from someone who primarily identifies himself as muslim defendant; as hitler was endorsed by the muslim religious clergy.

I am not denying the Holocaust. Where did you get the idea?

Perhaps you should reread the thread to see what the debate is actually about.

With most of the arab world representing the angry muslim stereotype entangled in conflict with israel, not primarily due to palestine but due to judaism.

It is seen as a religious conflict because the Israelis framed it so. This was to achieve two objectives:
-- it made defence of Israel as a de facto duty of all Jews.
-- it allowed the use of the anti-Semitism label as a shield against all criticism.

I agree that the other side has taken the bait and it is probably too late to take religion out of the debate now.

When such magnanimous tragedy like the holocaust is denied, it almost seems that you are either a white supremacist neo nazi or a extremist arab.

You confuse a specific instance of speech with the right to free speech. Have you heard the expression "I don't agree with your views but I will defend your right to express them?"

The point we are making is to debate the line between hate speech and free speech. This debate happens across the world, including the Western world, and has nothing to do with Hitler. It is not a clear cut case because laws on racism, blasphemy, Holocaust speech vary across the globe and even within the Western world.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He makes a good point. Holocaust denial, to the core is denying a specific historical event existed as depicted in popular media, in varying degrees.

Is it that categorically different from other unsubstantiated examples of historical revisionism?

Holocaust denial rightfully gets a bad rap, but it is treated in a special manner from other examples of the same category.



Islam burst out of Arabia into North Africa, the ME and Asia through both trade and war.

Not that different from the expansion of Christianity into Northern Europe.

Are you serious? Christianity burst out of (wherever) into northern Europe through both trade and war?

 

[Icecreamcart]

Are you serious? Christianity burst out of (wherever) into northern Europe through both trade and war?

Yes. How did you think it spread in the first place?

 

[vsdoc]

Yes. How did you think it spread in the first place?

But what is your point?

Because the Christians did it, its even stevens for Islam, and the Jews just need to suck it up?

 

[Icecreamcart]

But what is your point?

Because the Christians did it, its even stevens for Islam, and the Jews just need to suck it up?

We're off topic. But no, two wrongs don't make a right.

Historical revanchism goes nowhere, especially if this happened over a millenia ago.

So the fact that Islam spread in part to forced conversion doesn't make the argument relevant.

 

[vsdoc]

But no, two wrongs don't make a right.

Which is why we're hoping now that maybe three wrongs do.

 

[Developereo]

But what is your point?

Because the Christians did it, its even stevens for Islam, and the Jews just need to suck it up?

All religions engaged in warfare as part of their expansion, even the ones that now claim to be 'evolved'.

As for Jews, do you even know how the Hebrews came to live in Israel in the first place? Who lived there before the Hebrews came over?

Answer: Canaanites.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes. How did you think it spread in the first place?

By the invading German barbarians adopting it. It was not the Romans who went out and conquered people and forced them into Christianity. It was the Germans who adopted it, tribe by tribe. The last tribe to adopt it in the Volkswanderrung were the Lombards. The last tribe to adopt it in situ were the Saxons.

On second thoughts, it was the Old Prussians.

 

[vsdoc]

All religions engaged in warfare as part of their expansion, even the ones that now claim to be 'evolved'.

As for Jews, do you even know how the Hebrews came to live in Israel in the first place? Who lived there before the Hebrews came over?

Answer: Canaanites.

So why the song and dance at it happening again?

Or is there a mutually agreed upon religious armistice in place which I am not aware of?

Religions and faiths evolve. Man remains the same.

I do not buy into the theory of revanchism having a shelf life.

What goes around, will come around.

 

[mfreak]

- Holocaust happened. People who deny it or question various aspects shouldn't go to jail because their claims can be debunked with historical sites.

People who question aspects of it, are not sent to jail. People who deny it are. Denying something that is found by the internatinal criminal court as genocide, is akin to being a genocide apologist. Almost in all cases, this is because of racism and xenophobia.

An analogy between science or the lack thereof and the holocaust is irrelevant. Denying evolution does not hurt anybody, nor does it spread violence. It does not affect the very fabric of society. Holocaust denial results in anti-semitism and therefore such racist principles need to be weeded out.

In the interest of being intellectually honest, I will also say, anti-muslim sentiments need to be weeded out too. But muslims need to work toward making that possible. If you are gonna be like that Zarvan dude, calling for holocaust of the Jews, then muslims wont get anywhere. That is why I say, the racism against muslims are brought on by muslims themselves.

It is seen as a religious conflict because the Israelis framed it so.

Whether they framed it or not, they are politically right.

The point we are making is to debate the line between hate speech and free speech

Free speech is criticism. Asking for evidence of holocaust is free speech.

Hate speech is racism. Holocaust denial is racism. Innocence of Muslims was a racist movie, because it hardly expressed any view, it hardly criticized religion. It only stereotyped muslims and that was its purpose. The only difference here is, that muslims immediately started rioting, burning buildings and killing people. Such volatility completely takes away any credibility from your grievances.

 

[Developereo]

So why the song and dance at it happening again?

Because it strips away the self-righteous victimhood of the Israeli narrative that it is just a recongregation of a displaced people who have an unalienable right to the land as ordained by God himself.

Stripped of spin, here's the history:
- Canaanites lived there.
- Hebrews invaded, displaced the Canaanites, and took over.
- Romans invaded, displaced the Hebrews, and took over.
- over 2000 years, various peoples lived there, including a small number of Jews and a large number of Arabs.
- modern Zionists migrated/invaded, displaced the Arabs, and took over.

So, modern Israel is just the latest in a series of invasions; there is nothing divine or 'just' or 'inalienable' about this latest conquest. The Zionists are not victims reclaiming a birthright, they are just the latest in a series of invaders.