Haqqani network also target of N Waziristan operation: ISPR

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is Pakistan finally coming to terms with the reality, that it can not control Afghanistan with proxies..and finally doing what it should have done in the first place?

The realization has been there for a long time - but formulating policy and implementing policy, especially when the ramifications of a new policy can be severe, and the nation itself is polarized over the actions required to implement said policy, are significantly different.

I believe Pakistani commentators have been pointing out for quite a few years that the Pakistani military and government do not want to see the Taliban return to power in Afghanistan, though they continue to support the idea of "power sharing" with the Taliban within the existing Afghan government structure (i.e existing Afghan constitution).

Haqquanis today.. LeT and JuD tomorrow. Our dear Pakistani members here do not realize that the 900 million USD aid and the promise of Russian Gunships do not come without attached strings

That claim (especially the part about $900 million USD aid) might have sounded even remotely credible had Pakistan not already received billions in aid and reimbursements from the US over the past several years. The fact that the US is now significantly reducing her presence in Afghanistan renders that particular explanation to be even more flawed.

I understand that many Indian posters simply do not possess the ability to fathom the fact that Pakistani policy making is driven by multiple (and complex) domestic and geo-political factors, and would prefer to cling to simplistic and puerile analyses, but if India is really sincere about making peace with Pakistan, her decision makers and policy analysts are going to have to come out of their anti-Pakistan cocoon and shed their irrational anti-Pakistan hatred to try and understand Pakistan and Pakistani policy making.

 

[foxbat]

That claim (especially the part about $900 million USD aid) might have sounded even remotely credible had Pakistan not already received billions in aid and reimbursements from the US over the past several years. The fact that the US is now significantly reducing her presence in Afghanistan renders that particular explanation to be even more flawed.

And this response would have sounded credible as well, had Pakistan not already taken numerous similar steps at behest of USA in the past against those billion of dollars of aid and reimbursements. All I am saying is that the trend continues. And reduction in presence does not equal to reduction in interests.

I understand that many Indian posters simply do not possess the ability to fathom the fact that Pakistani policy making is driven by multiple (and complex) domestic and geo-political factors, and would prefer to cling to simplistic and puerile analyses, but if India is really sincere about making peace with Pakistan, her decision makers and policy analysts are going to have to come out of their anti-Pakistan cocoon and shed their irrational anti-Pakistan hatred to try and understand Pakistan and Pakistani policy making.

Sometimes, over complicating the analysis actually takes away the focus from the crux of the matter. At times things are really as simple as they seem and sometimes, there is really nothing in between the lines to read.

and the discussion has nothing to do with India Pakistan tango anyway. Its about how the aid coming in from the benefactors has strings attached to it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And this response would have sounded credible as well, had Pakistan not already taken numerous similar steps at behest of USA in the past against those billion of dollars of aid and reimbursements. All I am saying is that the trend continues. And reduction in presence does not equal to reduction in interests.

The US has been blowing hot and cold over the Haqqanis for around a decade now - under Leon Panetta, they tried a whole series of "sticks" - the unprovoked attack on Salala, the delay in CMF reimbursements for over two years, a whole media propaganda campaign centered around the canard of "Haqqani network is a veritable arm of the ISI' etc. etc. - nothing came out of that, Pakistan in fact shut down their cooperation and contacts with USMIL and intelligence community to the bare minimum, and yet somehow you see some sort of a "trend" here. Like I said, irrational and puerile Indian analysis that fits in with the traditionally shallow Indian views about Pakistan.

Sometimes, over complicating the analysis actually takes away the focus from the crux of the matter. At times things are really as simple as they seem and sometimes, there is really nothing in between the lines to read.

Perhaps, but when that simplistic thinking is demonstrably false, as argued earlier, then it is nothing but simplistic and puerile thinking.

and the discussion has nothing to do with India Pakistan tango anyway. Its about how the aid coming in from the benefactors has strings attached to it.

The overall discussion may not, but your commentary on the subject is representative of that "shallow, puerile Indian analyses" that I mentioned.

 

[Areesh]

I believe a person descends into name calling and flying off the handle when either a raw nerve gets hit or he has nothing left to say. I will let you decide for yourself which one is it in your case... Adios..

Lol what happened!!! By the way last time when USA demanded NWA operation PPP was in govt in Pakistan. Just for your information. Remember it.

 

[Hyperion]

Well, not quite yet. They really need to understand it in ernest. There are literally dozens of proscribed militant wings of political parties, let's not forget the "freedom" fighters, operating madrassas/camps/charities etc etc.....

If they have indeed changed their mind....... it will take decades to wipe this menace out........... sad, however, true.

I think PA realizes that it cannot allow ANY organization which supports terrorism on its ground. Now learn the definition of terrorism.

 

[V. Makarov]

Bros what I personally think is that indeed pak army is discriminating b/w the two sects of Taliban.Our ISI marks out the targets and takes out the foreign Uzbeks and other foreign funded organisations through precision airstrikes.Pak army can not think of killing the people of Haqani network because these people are the ones who are fighting the jihad against America in Afghanistan.Haqani network was made by the pak army and even people from our pak army have fought on their side in the Afghan jihad.what do you guys say? And what are your views about the Haqani network?

 

[foxbat]

The US has been blowing hot and cold over the Haqqanis for around a decade now - under Leon Panetta, they tried a whole series of "sticks" - the unprovoked attack on Salala, the delay in CMF reimbursements for over two years, a whole media propaganda campaign centered around the canard of "Haqqani network is a veritable arm of the ISI' etc. etc. - nothing came out of that, Pakistan in fact shut down their cooperation and contacts with USMIL and intelligence community to the bare minimum, and yet somehow you see some sort of a "trend" here. Like I said, irrational and puerile Indian analysis that fits in with the traditionally shallow Indian views about Pakistan.

Its always a folly to term all views contrasting with yours as shallow and incorrect. You assume that nothing did come out of hot and cold blowing ( oops) of USA. I personally believe that Pakistan did give in, however last year or so was spent in laying the ground to make this attack more palatable to the Pakistani public by allowing terrorists to wreck mayhem in Pakistan and hence by making it seem more of a Pakistani war rather than an American one. If it was done 2 years back, the chances were that Pakistan would have descended into a civil war. Now, the hits will still be hard, but a lot of public opinion is against he Taliban.

Perhaps, but when that simplistic thinking is demonstrably false, as argued earlier, then it is nothing but simplistic and puerile thinking.

Calling something demonstrably false without any real demonstration of the same is simply lame in my view.

The overall discussion may not, but your commentary on the subject is representative of that "shallow, puerile Indian analyses" that I mentioned.

Again lame, specially since you went around the town talking about prospects of India Pakistan peace in the thread that had no linkage with that topic

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There should be swift action by Pakistan Army to clean up house

 

[Sugarcane]

So what's the big deal? These items are officially imported by Pakistan from India!! They're all over the marketplace in Pakistan! And you call these items bought by the TTP in Pakistani markets as proof???

When India can term these kind of Items as concrete proves than why can't we do that?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its always a folly to term all views contrasting with yours as shallow and incorrect. You assume that nothing did come out of hot and cold blowing ( oops) of USA. I personally believe that Pakistan did give in, however last year or so was spent in laying the ground to make this attack more palatable to the Pakistani public by allowing terrorists to wreck mayhem in Pakistan and hence by making it seem more of a Pakistani war rather than an American one. If it was done 2 years back, the chances were that Pakistan would have descended into a civil war. Now, the hits will still be hard, but a lot of public opinion is against he Taliban.

It would be "folly" only if the "contrasting views" were not purely speculative, as are yours when you claim that "the $900 million US funds and potential MI-35 deal are behind the Pakistani decision to conduct a military operation in NW".

In fact, you sort of agree with the point I made earlier, that the Pakistani government and military establishment had decided several years ago (certainly by the time Kayani took over the COAS position, and probably even earlier) that a Taliban controlled Afghanistan was not in Pakistan's interests. Where we disagree is that the "change in policy" was brought about by US "sticks and carrots". If nothing else, the one thing multiple high level US officials and commentators have agreed on is that neither sticks nor carrots have worked to shift Pakistani policy making on issues that Pakistan regards as vital to her national security interests - whether the nuclear program or the refusal to go after the groups in NW without broad political consensus and national support.

Yet, despite all the evidence to the contrary, you continue to argue that "US sticks and carrots influenced Pakistani policy making" - therefore your comments (and similar comments from parts of the Indian intelligentsia) are correctly described as "shallow and puerile".

Calling something demonstrably false without any real demonstration of the same is simply lame in my view.

To the contrary, I have clearly "demonstrated" how your comments are "demonstrably false" - your entire premise is based on speculation and conspiracy theories of some sort of "secret pact/arrangement" over the past few years in which the US dictated Pakistani policy making. You have offered no evidence to support this alleged chain of events, and in fact, as I have pointed out in the my last few responses to you, the overwhelming evidence available publicly points to the opposite of what you claim - that US officials were openly frustrated by the Pakistani refusal to follow US diktat irregardless of the US "sticks and carrots" employed as leverage.

Again lame, specially since you went around the town talking about prospects of India Pakistan peace in the thread that had no linkage with that topic

"Went around town" - yet more unsubstantiated and exaggerated commentary - I dissected your demonstrably flawed commentary on the rationale behind the recent Pakistani offensive in NW, and linked the underlying factors behind said "shallow and puerile analysis" to a broader affliction the Indian intelligentsia suffers from when it comes to analyzing Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Bros what I personally think is that indeed pak army is discriminating b/w the two sects of Taliban.Our ISI marks out the targets and takes out the foreign Uzbeks and other foreign funded organisations through precision airstrikes.Pak army can not think of killing the people of Haqani network because these people are the ones who are fighting the jihad against America in Afghanistan.Haqani network was made by the pak army and even people from our pak army have fought on their side in the Afghan jihad.what do you guys say? And what are your views about the Haqani network?

The Haqqanis in North Waziristan are "guests" of the Gul Bahadur group. Tribal dynamics being what they are, the presence of a strong militarized "indigenous" group (Bahadur's Taliban) means that the Haqqanis (or any other group - Uzbeks, TTP, AQ) cannot survive in NW without their support. Gul Bahadur however has publicly declared the peace agreement with the Pakistani Military to be over, demanded that local residents evacuate to Afghanistan (instead of Pakistan), called for local residents to take up arms and support his Taliban group in "defending North Waziristan against the Pakistani Army". Given all of that, and the recent ISPR statement that the Haqqanis will be targeted along with all other groups, I don't see the Pakistani military as having any option BUT to target ALL Taliban groups in NW.

 

[Metanoia]

It was a huge political and policy blunder in the 80's to support terrorism and extremism which has certainly come back to bite us hard.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It was a huge political and policy blunder in the 80's to support terrorism and extremism which has certainly come back to bite us hard.

The policy was NOT to support "terrorism and extremism" - the policy was to support proxy groups that were perceived to have the best chance of securing Pakistani national security interests in Afghanistan.

 

[Metanoia]

The policy was NOT to support "terrorism and extremism" - the policy was to support proxy groups that were perceived to have the best chance of securing Pakistani national security interests in Afghanistan.

Policy was to support extremists and terrorists on others to further our own goals. We did manage to make Afghanistan our backyard but at what cost?

We did more than support, we nurtured these proxy groups on our own territory while fully knowing that which school of thought they belonged to and what was their ideology etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Policy was to support extremists and terrorists on others to further our own goals. We did manage to make Afghanistan our backyard but at what cost?

Again, the policy was to support proxy groups, not to support "terrorism and extremism" - that they turned out to be extremists/terrorists was not the driving factor nor a repercussion that was expected.

We did more than support, we nurtured these proxy groups on our own territory while fully knowing that which school of thought they belonged to and what was their ideology etc.

We "nurtured" some of these proxy groups certainly, but again, the goal was not of "promoting terrorism", the goal was to leverage the religious ideology in support of Pakistani national security interests.

 

[iPhone]

Its always a folly to term all views contrasting with yours as shallow and incorrect. You assume that nothing did come out of hot and cold blowing ( oops) of USA. I personally believe that Pakistan did give in, however last year or so was spent in laying the ground to make this attack more palatable to the Pakistani public by allowing terrorists to wreck mayhem in Pakistan and hence by making it seem more of a Pakistani war rather than an American one. If it was done 2 years back, the chances were that Pakistan would have descended into a civil war. Now, the hits will still be hard, but a lot of public opinion is against he Taliban.



Calling something demonstrably false without any real demonstration of the same is simply lame in my view.


Again lame, specially since you went around the town talking about prospects of India Pakistan peace in the thread that had no linkage with that topic

lolz, Indians love to conjure up conspiracy theories, don't they. Easy on the SaaS and bahu soap operas and ndtv reporting, guy. it can make one very delusional, like in your case.