HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[satishkumarcsc]

post-deleted

 

[Joe Shearer]

I really have a problem with this thread.

My problem is with justanobserver, blackops, satishkumarcsc, Karthic Sri and rockstar, and the other Indians (older members, not newbies like SR 71 Blackbird, Black Widow) who are reacting to Han Warrior. You seem to have let this clown get under your skin, and he now pulls the rope and you jump every time he pulls the rope. Why?

He's just joined this month; he has a legitimate excuse, besides being a suicide troll, which is that he wasn't around when details about the LCA were presented. What excuse do you others have?

Let's take a look.

justanobserver - August 2010
blackops - December 2010
satishkumarcsc - November 2008
Karthic Sri - April 2010
rockstar - August 2010

SR 71 Blackbird and Black Widow just joined, they can't be blamed for anything but the same thing as Han Warrior, inexcusable laziness and not looking up past threads. But what about you other folks?

You were around when all these points were discussed threadbare. You were around when references were given, and even pictures of wind-tunnels were uploaded, because someone got emotional and decided to respond whole-heartedly; unnecessarily, I might add, for reasons that should be obvious.

Just because he asks a smart question that he thinks doesn't have a legitimate answer, does our reality change? Do you really think that the control system laws, the basic structural design, the design and manufacture of composites, the avionics, the landing gear, even the tyres are not understood, and his questioning them will put their local manufacture and supply at risk? Why don't you know that these answers have each and every one been provided, why are you making him laugh at you by asking counter-questions instead of answering him calmly, factually, and ultimately, dismissively?

I don't think it is fair not to know. It's been answered precisely and to the point before. Please, guys, do your homework. And please remember that trolls of this kind are best answered either by ignoring them, which I was doing, truth to tell, or by giving them every bit of information that they ask for, and nailing their silly statements based on which they try to disprove points that you have made. It is not an option to answer in the short or long form of 'Sez who?' He will then turn around and say that you don't know, you can't provide facts, and so it's clear you have no answer.

And there isn't any point in providing the answers to his questions, simple though they are. Then for all time to come, confronted by a dreadful bore, you will then turn again to somebody in the forum who's been there before, shrug your soldiers, ask that old f**t, and give up thinking and learning on your own.

Grow up, guys, or play at home.

Okay. I think I can't be so straight forward. Might hurt Indian feelings. Let me put it in a more polite way.

1) How many % is indigenous?
2) How do you define it? Does buying 99% foreign parts and then assembling it with Indian labor count?
3) Example avionics? Does India have an electronic industrial base? All the sudden you can produce indigenous avionics?
4) Does India have an active reverse engineering program to gain technical strength? You think just by signing a ToT. The foreigners are going to transfer everything to you? That's a bit naive isn't it?
5) If India indeed has got a strong innovation or reverse engineering base, why are you still buying even simple components from China? And I mean military components.
6) Why are the Russians, French, American so eager to sell you things if you can reverse engineering properly. Have you ever thought that maybe they find you guys easy to fleece and have a none committed government. A government that keeps on boasting to appear useful but full of opposing parties that keep on arguing and can't get things done. At last they buy all the components, employ some foreign supervisor and use cheap Indian labor to assemble something and then broadcast it to the world, it's an indigenous platform.


You see, the arguing talent is still present. Instead of admitting your weakness and improve. You keep on arguing, arguing that Mig-21 is a formidable plane. Friend, if Mig-21 is a formidable plane, you would't need to have LCA, don't you?

Ever wonder why LCA, is always in 'testing' phase? Or some improvement phase, whatever MK this and that? Have you ever thought just maybe, it is all bullshit and they keep on creating all these different models, test to keep you DRDO guys employed and fleece some more cash? Or maybe keep you guys hopeful that 20 years down the road, India shall be a SUPAHPOWWAH with a SUPAHDUPAH plane?

No you see unlike Bhutan we have a massive industrial base.So it is possible for us to produce a 4.5 gen plane with 75-80% indigenous content.Also on your opinion about the Mig-21 I would like to say that F-16 is a formidable aircraft then why is USAF involved in the JSF program to replace F-16s.
We Indians believe in Gross Domestic Product not Gross National Happiness.

Nice Question... You Deserve an answer...
1. Do you know anything about military aviation... a simple Nut and Bolt need to be certified (Air worthiness). How many indian firm make airworthy nut bolts?? for making 5 LCA (TD1/2 PV1/2/3) do you think it's wise to set up a plant for nut-bolt?? or its ok to buy it from USA/Russia and when we will do mass production we can have our certified Nut_bolt???

2. The Ejection seat was frm Martin baker, which is replaced by Indian one (certified from Martin baker).
3. Engine and propulsion : As I said, once Kavery will be ready, it will be incorporated. \
4. Airframe : totally designed, verified and validated by DRDO/HAL.
5. Landing Gear : Originally imported, later developed and replaced by our one.
6. Flight control: After USA seized our machines and developed software, we start working on it in India and made it for us.
7. Avionics: HUD replaced by our one
8. Radar: We wrote our code on Israeli processor, later we replace it with more powerful radar.
9. EW suit: developed by India...
Now tell me what else you want???

3. Its not all of sudden... we spent time and then developed these EW suit.. and we do have electronic base, We do have stealth testing lab, we do have wind tunnels, we do have composite lab.
4. We don't do un-ethical work.. we don't believe in reverse engineering.. we do our research and if we face any problem , we seek help from expert, based on our reputation other countries provide us help... They know that we will not make cheap copy of their product and back-stab them...
5. Oops! what we are buying from china??? I think you misunderstood me as a pakistani citizen... we know quality of Chinese products..


and finally, LCA is not in testing phase... yes but it is in improvement phase... it will be improved till end of its life... LCA is formally inducted in IAF... IAF pilots are happy with this machine..

He's not from Bhutan but a false flagger. People from Bhutan are not Hans

Tshering22 can probably confirm his identity, since he's a bhutia

point 5 and 6 we are not damn chinese who steal tech from americans and europeans who make copies of su 27 reverse engineering every thing making cheap quality products

Friend,

F-16 is a gen 4 aircraft while Mig-21 is a gen-2 aircraft... you dare to even compare that? OMG. It's like saying my bicycle is cool because Ravi changed his Honda to a Harley.

You are saying LCA is a gen 4.5 aircraft after your own Air Marshall admitted it is a Mig-21+ aircraft? And how did you get the 80% figure? IIT statistics? Let me get this staight....so basically you can't make bolts and nuts for a plane, no electronic industrial base, no advanced composites base, no research nor reverse engineering capability and yet you can produce a 80% gen 4.5 plane that is more capable that a gen 4 plane which is basically F-16?

It seems India has got alot of mouth power. Gross national happiness? Hey, you can't even compare to Bhutan OK. Ask those hungry slum kids if they are happy when they are starving.

OO ok...now you admit you can't even make a simple air certified bolt and nut for planes? Hey we are talking about a future 1000s of planes to be procured, and you don't think setting up these bases is important. More like incompetence isn't it? You think it is easy to make air grade components? Testing procedure? Manpower to be trained? Facilities? And you claim it is indigenous when you can't even make the most basic component?

Please provide evidence that the seat is fully made in India or assembled? The pressure mechanism to eject the seat...where is it made? Or maybe the fabric for the seat is made in India? The spring maybe?

Kaveri, oo please, start talking when it is ready. Even then, how many parts are made in India? Prove it.

Air frame, you mean the steel frame? What about composites? Where is it made? Evidence? How does it compare to Chinese composites?

Again, landing gear, the mechanism for landing, the heat resistant tires, wher is it made? Prove.

Software? Hey my pino boys can write software too man. Some of the best programmers are in Tsinghua University. Just because you have alot of outsourcing and call centers doesn't mean you can write flight control codes man. Prove

Again, HUD, where is your optics industrial base. In China, we are one of the largest producers of advance optics for cameras.

Can you teach me to write codes to a microprocessor? LOL. Isreali processor? Since when did Israel produce microprocessors. Most planes use old Intel chips which is more than enough to power modern avionics. We are not talking about playstation here.

Yea, all these super duper microelectronics hardware needs a fab >> so where exactly is the FAB in India? OO now you have a stealth base too? What super duper plane is developed ther? Is it flying yet like the J-20? Hmm, funny we Chinese didn't announced it at all....but all of a sudden a stealth plane flew.

Good you dun do unethical job while the Russians and American did it to the Germans. Bravo!!! So you seek 'help'? What sort of help? Like maybe giving $ for a component? Gving $ to produce something? Or giving $ for 'consultancy? In the end no true talents are trained?

You didn't buy from China. BACK BEFORE 1998, you had to buy enriched uranium from us, nuclear grade magnetic ring from us because you can't produce it. You military bought an encrytion device from us. Check it online, it's well known. You buy billions and yes I mean billions of supecritical power equipment from us, advanced 3G telecom equipments and again in the BILLIONS.

You know, people with mental disabilities are also always happy! LOL

F-16 and LCA difference?

It's not in operation. =). Induct it, fly it in combat, then talk OK? No testing without bombs, testing without radars, or some future super duper radar, super duper missile.

Well you are the one who claimed it isn't we never did...so it is your duty to provide data and it's sources. Your Chinese logic thinks something then we aint responsible for that.

Well I dont care if you say that China can make better avionics then I dont care....but back up your claims with sources.

 

[piyalghoshal]

I want to add a point in this whole discussion is that 'is it a good decision to make everything indigenously' as it decreases and sometimes blocks the whole project and also it is not a very economic decision.As far I think the way India choose is a better way as if smthng is lagging behind as per the timeline import it , continue to develop it and replace it when it is ready as simple as that.There is no compulsion of making a 100% indigenous jet.Yes it is always good to have one but the thing is that making smthing out of scratch without the same amount of infrastructure ,money,freedom that our neighbor enjoys is an appreciable job.This question is very frequent from the members of other countries so that's why I thought to express my views on it.Yes some parts in lca is not Indian but we have to understand it needs time to develop a work of art tech.We should keep our faith in it and I am sure it will sour the tooth of enemies in future wars.

 

[farhan_9909]

why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?

 

[ganimi kawa]

why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?

Both of them are tailless deltas but that is where the similarity ends!


The Mirage is a simple tailless delta.

While the Tejas is a "cranked" tailless delta.

Also, please check the pics of the two crafts provided and notice the difference in the area where the wing meets the fuselage. That will give you some idea about what a "cranked" delta is.


There are many other differences between the M2K and LCA. For now, this should suffice.

 

[Han Patriot]

This is the LCA

This is the M2K.



Quite different from what you drew.

 

[Han Patriot]

IN Sanskrit, tejas, the name given to India’s indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA), means brilliance. On Monday, the Tejas was finally accorded an initial operational clearance, but this tells only part of the story. The otherwise landmark event is the culmination of almost 27 years of work marked, however, more by unacceptable time and cost overruns – from an initial ` 560 crore to a staggering ` 17,269 crore.

The Tejas, which is meant to replace the antiquated Soviet-origin MiG-21 fleet, is still far from induction into the Indian Air Force, which most disconcertingly has been grappling with declining fighter squadron strength. As of now, weapon systems have not been fully integrated into this aircraft and, so, its operational induction into the air force is not expected until end-2013. Like most other high-end technology projects, the LCA too is a microcosm of all that is wrong with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with the nature of constraints and challenges in which it functions. The Tejas may have been built in India, but its key components are mostly either American or built with US assistance. It is powered by the US supplied General Electric 404 engine while the flight control system has been developed by Lockheed Martin, which again is an American company. India’s plan to develop the indigenous Kaveri aero-engine for the Tejas has, after spending 20 years and ` 2,830 crore, been an effort in vain. As a consequence, the DRDO is now looking for foreign partners to jointly develop an aero-engine. As of now Mk-II of the Tejas is to be powered by the American GE-414 engine, which again, is expected to fructify only by December 2014.

By the time the Tejas enters squadron service, it is expected to end up being, at best, a medium-end fighter and somewhat behind the times. As the air chief uncomplimentingly put it, the Tejas will be a “MiG-21 plus-plus”. Surely there is need for the DRDO to exercise greater tejas in executing their projects if India, an aspiring power, has to attain a credible degree of self-reliance in weapon technology

This is from Tribune India. So basically a Mig-21+. Hey I am using Indian sources here.

4 billion USD for 25 years, you get a aircraft that is forever in testing stage made with x% of imported components. Hell, I can see why Chandrayaan has got 50% foreign equipment and I am talking about the main instruments, what about the other components. One simple question where is the simple solar cell made? =)

 

[rcrmj]

why LCA resemble with mirage 2000 so much?

because the French Dassault Aviation is the officially listed consultant of the project.

 

[Han Patriot]

Hell, I don't even think they have one consultant. I heard they had a (Swedish?) consultant for composites, Lockheed for controls.... you think the paint is made in India? LOL. And they are pretty good at aconyms, LCA, LCH, MCA, MMRCA........ LOL. Funny people.

I think next thy are gonna have ANAL ( Advanced Next generation Aircraft for Long range operations)

 

[Joe Shearer]

I want to add a point in this whole discussion is that 'is it a good decision to make everything indigenously' as it decreases and sometimes blocks the whole project and also it is not a very economic decision.As far I think the way India choose is a better way as if smthng is lagging behind as per the timeline import it , continue to develop it and replace it when it is ready as simple as that.There is no compulsion of making a 100% indigenous jet.Yes it is always good to have one but the thing is that making smthing out of scratch without the same amount of infrastructure ,money,freedom that our neighbor enjoys is an appreciable job.This question is very frequent from the members of other countries so that's why I thought to express my views on it.Yes some parts in lca is not Indian but we have to understand it needs time to develop a work of art tech.We should keep our faith in it and I am sure it will sour the tooth of enemies in future wars.

The people whose names appear on aircraft types - Sukhoi, MiG, Mil, Antonov, Ilyushin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS - are known as systems integrators. They don't make planes in a factory where the nuts, bolts and composites are made; they call in assemblies, sub-assemblies and components from all over the world, subject to security and secrecy considerations, and put them together to a design. Sometimes, as in the case of the Russians, design and manufacture are separated, for greater integrity. Yes, the systems integrators and the designers, between them, retain the right to make changes in design and alterations and modifications, due to discoveries made during test flights, but this is the process.

So you can gauge for yourself how ridiculous the entire agent provocateur post was.

Tyres have been made in Dunlop Sahaganj from the 50s; the legendary Suranjan Das' son was a Dunlop employee supervising smooth supply of these to HAL from the 70s onwards. Avionics, with which I have personal involvement, has been indigenous from the 70s and 80s onwards; the brilliant account of the DARIN conversion by T K Sen is a gripping story by itself. Composites were developed under the leadership of the technical genius Krishnadas Nair, whose lectures on composite technology drew packed audiences; his open lectures usually had a distinguished overseas delegation in attendance. The composite manufacturing effort was developed within HAL while he was Managing Director of the Bangalore Complex, well before his Chairmanship. Autocrat though he was, nothing should be subtracted from his technical contributions to the nation. The landing gear and its anti-skid braking software was developed by HAL engineers working within the ADA/ADE; my successor as CEO in the avionics firm was lead programmer for the ABS software.

I could go on and on, if not for the fact that we have gone into all this before. The crowning glory, however, was the writing of the flight control laws. It has led to a smooth, mellow flying machine which each and every one flying it has fallen in love with from the first flight onwards. Contrary to half-baked reports, the involvement of Lockheed-Martin was limited to intense technical discussions with a full team of Indian engineers, who started developing the control laws. They were locked out of their work-places literally at an hour's notice on the clamping of sanctions. All the work for the first version, which a member of the team says was slightly rough at the edges, typical for version 1.0 efforts, was left behind. The team went to work again from first principles, and the result is flying now. So much for Lockheed-Martin having built the control laws. For those who have read 'The Mythical Man-month', this illustrates the maxim that in a large software project, the first step is to make one to throw away.

There were failures. The worst was Kaveri, which was crippled by sanctions. Everything had been built around the supply of certain critical components. I am not sure that I should even talk about it. Another setback was the AESA radar development. And that was about it. For a ground-up effort, this was magnificent. Some tuppenny-ha'penny wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate should not cause such a storm of reaction unless we are ourselves actually ignorant about what happened. I am quite irritated at the slavish efforts still being made to try and convince those who have clearly set themselves up to have some fun at the expense of our more combustible members.

 

[perplexed]

Hell, I don't even think they have one consultant. I heard they had a (Swedish?) consultant for composites, Lockheed for controls.... you think the paint is made in India? LOL. And they are pretty good at aconyms, LCA, LCH, MCA, MMRCA........ LOL. Funny people.

I think next thy are gonna have ANAL ( Advanced Next generation Aircraft for Long range operations)

No, next we will construct LUND ( Light Undersea Naval Dock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast

 

[jha]

No, next we will construct LUND ( Light Undersea Naval Dock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast

Bhai Jaan samhal ke...use iska matlab bhi nahi pata hoga..

 

[Manas]

@Joe Shearer

why IAF has been so figgity about LCA ??

 

[BATMAN]

@Joe Shearer

why IAF has been so figgity about LCA ??

They like Hornets more.

 

[Manas]

They like Hornets more.

One reason i can give straightaway is we Indians (can include Pakistanis also) love fohran maal.