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[kingdurgaking]

hopefully we do it as soon as possible so that FOC is achieved quickly

 

[angeldemon_007]

Can you give a source for point number 3. Only US has 2nd generation AESA. And the Gripen AESA is not by SAAB. Its a different company.

Its on SAAB website. Also F16 aesa is from Northrop Grumman, F18 aesa is from Raytheon, EF aesa is also from Selex Galileo same as Gripens which is an italian company, Rafale aesa is from Thales and mig35 aesa is from JSC Phazotron. What i am pointing is no actual producer of the fighter has produced aesa but a different company is providing it.

We can also buy an AESA from Israel and fit it on LCA but we want to develop our own AESA for LCA.

Israel is not selling it to us and its an old news. If i am not wrong we can purchase it from any country except US but US companies offered aesa in 2007-08 but everything depends on their govt. but sometimes we are waiting for JV and sometimes we go solo. Best thing is we should acquire selex galileo because it has nice range of products.

What do you mean by point number 4. Isn't BVR dependent on the radar and the AAM Range. So what's so unique about Gripen. You need to elaborate this point.

Sorry, by this i meant Gripen is offering maximum types of BVRs like mica and all.

Point No. 5. What do you mean by platform independent. Can you chance the American engine. If SAAB has said so can you give a source.

Engine is big thing, you cannot just go and change it like battery. But yeah others, you can fit russian, other european or US components on this unlike US and Russians which are built specifically for their own components.

Point no. 6. LCA Naval will have a similar short take off.

Are you serious ??/ All naval fighter jets should have short take off. I am not talking about naval jets they are different from normal jets.

They can incorporate some of those technologies into LCA. So no big deal.

Funny....

Anyways for a large country like India this is not even a requirement.

Yeah for a country like India its really important specially in far areas if you find a road just land on this. Both Gripen and SH are pointing out this feature for sales although there are a couple of more important points but it still an important feature considering India. Also how many air baesa do we have in NE ?/ FYI we don't have enough....

The only thing that Grippen has and LCA doesn't have is the IRST.

Are you living in fantasy lands ??/ We can also add that and we can also add that. Saala aese to...just purchase IRST from Selex and fit it in LCA mk2 or give then a contract to build IRST for LCA.
FYI LCA mk2 design and features are already finalized nothing of the 5 things pointed above will be in LCA mk2, get over it. If ADA goes for mk3 then these features can be included in that but for now mk2 does not have any of the above features.

Considering LCA Mk II is planned for 2016 and Gripen NG for 2017 I still can't see what's so great about Gripen.

I told you this before also that NG was going for operational clearance from Swedish AF while first test were going on in 2010. Afterthat it even participated in the test. If we don't give this project to SAAB then it will be delayed and get in Swedish AF by 2017 otherwise it will begin its production before. Similar delays are in many projects participating in MMRCA, all depends on the company which will win the contract.

 

[angeldemon_007]

sure accepted NG has the best data link... but it doesnt mean LCA doesnt have.. and LCA will be very well integrated with AFNET which is important in a network centric warfare...

Good....i know this but i am talking about the best over here....Also for the sake of knowledge sharing, SAAB was the first company to integrate a data link into a fighter jet and we can learn from them.

May not be a requirement or priority if not it would have been featured atleast we would have imported for sure..

Yeah, i think thats why we are not going for aesa in lca mk2. Buddy IRST is an important feature if you want to make your fighter a 4++ gen like gripen.

When AESA ready will eventually get into LCA.. right now it is predicted to take 5 yrs and will not be available when MK2 rolls out..

Yeah thats what i am saying....may be in future upgrades but right now LCA mk2 is not a match for Gripen NG.

but once completed it will surely find its way into LCA.. as far as i know we are working on future generation AESA like CAPTOR

Isi liye to bana rahe hain bhai usey.....
Also i don't know what are their aims but right now they don't know whether they are going solo on this or will have a partner. If you any info on any development please share. I hope aesa is produced by by 2015. We could also join Russia to produce an aesa which might find a place in our 5th gen fighter AMCA also.

but once completed it will surely find its way into LCA.. as far as i know we are working on future generation AESA like CAPTOR

What are talking man??/ BVR is beyond visual range missile and gripen offers maximum types of them like mica and all.

it is our own stuff... so you can imagine more than that.. if we are not sactioned like sweden.. i bet we will have all tech what NG has posses

Yeah...that point was in comparison with other MMRCA and thats why in the end instead of 6 i said 5 features are not in lca mk2. You are right....

accepted a design that LCA lacks.. but LCA has been optimized for Indian environment which is highly important

I doubt that point to support LCA's lack of features.

You have to understand still LCA will be in lighter category not in the medium category of NG..

You are the first one. Everybody compares lca with gripen even in roles.

As far as i am also concerned LCA Mk2 will be 4th gen .. Gripen is good no doubt but any platform is as good as it has to posses the PayLoad & armanents ....
with MK2 we will have a good MTOW and good operational range and pay load.. weapons we can add at any time... yes some technologies like IRST and AESA will take time.. but will eventually get into LCA once they are ready .... You have to understand still LCA will be in lighter category not in the medium category of NG.. but still it can make the range and payload of NG.. yes technologies we lack but we will develop hopefully in a decade.. we are short of decade thats why I emphasis MMRCA is important..

Thats what i am saying....may be in mk3.

 

[angeldemon_007]

When you compare the real difference of a possible MK2 and Gripen NG fighter, you have to compare the basic spec differences like, emptyweight, MTOW, payload, hardpoints, speed, TWR, wingloading, range...and if you do so, you will see how close LCA MK2 can be at the NG.

Yeah those things are comparable....Yeah but no new tech is being added in mk2 like aesa or IRST, its just like making right the things they have done wrong in the first place.
But features like aesa, IRST, BVR missiles, data links etc. defines your survivability during the war. These features are also important. But yeah operationally lca mk2 can meet the features of gripen.

Then just make an AMCA tech demonstrator like Gripen NG, not a serial production fighter for several billions! You get the same, while paying less and keep the focus on LCA and FGFA.

Thats a nice idea...but i would still like if we go for AMCA but this time its a fanboy opinion. You are right about that.

Why even fund AMCA if you don't want to use it in war?

Thats the point then you won't be spending that much like we plan right now.

By pushing our responsibilities to foreign weapon makers(FGFA), we are only increasing technological gap between India and other countries. FGFA will not bring any R&D infrastructure into to India, other than few tokens. FGFA design will be fully done within Russia.

It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.

 

[shaktiman2010]

It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.

That's where I don't agree.

Basically what you are saying is, "If no country is ready to help us, we shouldn't even think of doing it ourselves. Because we are not capable of doing it".

Exactly that has been the line of thought all these decades in IAF and MoD.

 

[luckyyy]

It would be just like Brahmos-Yakhont. Yeah i doubt about how much we will be able to learn from FGFA but AMCA bet was made on FGFA. If we fail to learn enough from FGFA then god knows what will happen with AMCA as no one else will help us as very few countries knows about 5th gen techs.

there is enough learned people in india , you need not have to throw bullshit ..

 

[kingdurgaking]

Good....i know this but i am talking about the best over here....Also for the sake of knowledge sharing, SAAB was the first company to integrate a data link into a fighter jet and we can learn from them.
Yeah, i think thats why we are not going for aesa in lca mk2. Buddy IRST is an important feature if you want to make your fighter a 4++ gen like gripen.

.. No one doub abou SAAB's role on data links... i said we too have that now in LCA which will be integerated with a robust network of IAFNET to give more situal awareness... on IRST i said we will have once it is developed.. may be IAF doesnt need it on priority... if IAF demanded it would have been integerated is my argument.. IRST doesnt alone makes it 4++ and i am not saying LCA will make it to 4++ one

Yeah thats what i am saying....may be in future upgrades but right now LCA mk2 is not a match for Gripen NG.

.. An important argument in this is Mk2 will have a good MTOW and range compared to NG.. may be a good pay load too as compared to NG... may be it will lack in some avionics but there are otherways it will compensate for it.. for IRST may be it will get the data from other fighter which is part of the formation..

Isi liye to bana rahe hain bhai usey.....
Also i don't know what are their aims but right now they don't know whether they are going solo on this or will have a partner. If you any info on any development please share. I hope aesa is produced by by 2015. We could also join Russia to produce an aesa which might find a place in our 5th gen fighter AMCA also.

... we are the one designing the radar.. but we are outsourced some parts to other for manufacturing as we dont have the facility here... we have already raise RFP for that.. and there is no update because of MMRCA drama.. if AESA is available by 2015 it will surely moulded inside LCA Mk2 without any delay... to say we have already developed AESA radars we are working on miniaturized one with some advanced technologies...

What are talking man??/ BVR is beyond visual range missile and gripen offers maximum types of them like mica and all.

... what is the use of having different BVR's it is a mess and a headache... for LCA right now it is Derby but it is going to be astra for sure.. which has the range almost equal to Metoer

Yeah...that point was in comparison with other MMRCA and thats why in the end instead of 6 i said 5 features are not in lca mk2. You are right....
I doubt that point to support LCA's lack of features.

... my POV is if we need it and if we are not sanctioned what ever technology in NG would have been featured in LCA Mk2.. which actually is not the situation now because we have to develope it on our because of denial... secondly not every frame is ideal for everything... and what is the doubt.. it is optimized for Indian environment and Short take of and landing is not true for gripen in all sense.. especially it is fully loaded

You are the first one. Everybody compares lca with gripen even in roles.
Thats what i am saying....may be in mk3.

... see LCA is still small compared to Gripen... even MK1 is almost able to carry decent payload and loiter more than Griphen.. it can carry the payload of gripen with the same fuel that Gripen is carrying... LCA can match all the roles of Gripen yes it doesnt have the avionics of Griphen

 

[angeldemon_007]

Basically what you are saying is, "If no country is ready to help us, we shouldn't even think of doing it ourselves. Because we are not capable of doing it".

Sorry but thats not what i meant. We should definitely go for AMCA but its not me who is betting on, its our scientists. Just look at the time frame. Within a decade they will be developing a whole new fighter jet and that too 5th gen. Its not feasible. And i am saying that i doubt we will get critical techs from FGFA based on that article but this will cause delays as then we will have to develop all those techs from scratch and it took both US and Russia more than 2-3 decades to develop them and we will also need that much time. I am not judging anyone. If we take the same time as US did then our achievement will be far greater than US because then we will jump directly from LCA to a 5th gen fighter.

here is enough learned people in india , you need not have to throw bullshit ..

Hey buddy, i am also indian and nothing was there in the text to hurt anybody feeling. Brahmos was a success and so will be FGFA. I didn't meant that we won't be able to make it but what i meant is it will take alot of time because it took both US and Russia more than 3 decades to build them. On the other hand our scientists without even getting started are thinking of developing it within a decade.
Just remember how Russia first decided about their 5th gen fighter then 3 designs came up and out of which Sukhoi design was selected. Same happened in US but nothing like this is happening in India. We happened to get the best design in the first time itself.
You guys are not thinking practically. Just don't be emotional for a minute and read it from an engineer point of view.

on IRST i said we will have once it is developed..

I don't know why we don't have any program from this. I hope we get this through ToT.

may be IAF doesnt need it on priority... if IAF demanded it would have been integerated is my argument

The problem with them is they don't want desi products and hence they don't show interest in defining what they want. I don't think IAF even set up any specification for mk2. Now when it will be launched they will again cry.

IRST doesnt alone makes it 4++ and i am not saying LCA will make it to 4++ one

Well it does not but its an important tech and found in all 4++ gen fighter. So inorder to be beat your enemy you should have it just like aesa.

what is the use of having different BVR's it is a mess and a headache... for LCA right now it is Derby but it is going to be astra for sure.. which has the range almost equal to Metoer

No by range i meant, different types of that is it is compatible with US and All european BVR missiles. Test bed for meteor was gripen itself so it will be the first to receive it.

An important argument in this is Mk2 will have a good MTOW and range compared to NG.. may be a good pay load too as compared to NG...

No it will never be better than Gripen. So much is not even needed on LCA. I don't know about t/w ratio but i think there it might be ahead.

for IRST may be it will get the data from other fighter which is part of the formation..

I don't know what are their plan but they should answer this through one or the other way.

we are the one designing the radar.. but we are outsourced some parts to other for manufacturing as we dont have the facility here... we have already raise RFP for that.. and there is no update because of MMRCA drama.. if AESA is available by 2015 it will surely moulded inside LCA Mk2 without any delay... to say we have already developed AESA radars we are working on miniaturized one with some advanced technologies...

They were actually looking for a partner. They were about to chose between elta and eads. but no news and thats why i asked whether we are going solo because there some unconfirmed reports about going solo also. Also you cannot just change radar at the end of completion. AESA is not finding its place in mk2 until the next upgrade.

my POV is if we need it and if we are not sanctioned what ever technology in NG would have been featured in LCA Mk2.. which actually is not the situation now because we have to develope it on our because of denial... secondly not every frame is ideal for everything... and what is the doubt.. it is optimized for Indian environment and Short take of and landing is not true for gripen in all sense.. especially it is fully loaded

Agreed...

LCA can match all the roles of Gripen yes it doesnt have the avionics of Griphen

It can do all the roles of gripen but with not with as much precision and success as Gripen will do because LCA is not meant for those roles.

 

[MST]

Since there are too many points i have replied within quotes in bold.

Its on SAAB website. Also F16 aesa is from Northrop Grumman, F18 aesa is from Raytheon, EF aesa is also from Selex Galileo same as Gripens which is an italian company, Rafale aesa is from Thales and mig35 aesa is from JSC Phazotron. What i am pointing is no actual producer of the fighter has produced aesa but a different company is providing it.
Saab signed the deal for AESA only in 2009. And if you look at the development cycle for AESA you will realise that its a big risk just like its in the case of Euro Fighter is. I give high marks on this point to F18 and Rafale.

Israel is not selling it to us and its an old news. If i am not wrong we can purchase it from any country except US but US companies offered aesa in 2007-08 but everything depends on their govt. but sometimes we are waiting for JV and sometimes we go solo. Best thing is we should acquire selex galileo because it has nice range of products.
I can't comment on DRDO will do. But just like SAAB we can also tie up the Salex Galileo for AESA for LCA as you said.

Sorry, by this i meant Gripen is offering maximum types of BVRs like mica and all.
Isn't missile integration dependent on RAdar and its source codes (i am not considering heavy duty ones here which LCA can't lift) . So we can have the same set of missiles on LCA as well if we purchase them from the vendors

Engine is big thing, you cannot just go and change it like battery. But yeah others, you can fit russian, other european or US components on this unlike US and Russians which are built specifically for their own components.
Exactly you can't change engine just like that. So platform is not as flexible as you mentioned.

Are you serious ??/ All naval fighter jets should have short take off. I am not talking about naval jets they are different from normal jets.


Funny....
Why is it funny. You mean knowledge gained from creating one aircraft can't be transferred to another.

Yeah for a country like India its really important specially in far areas if you find a road just land on this. Both Gripen and SH are pointing out this feature for sales although there are a couple of more important points but it still an important feature considering India. Also how many air baesa do we have in NE ?/ FYI we don't have enough....
No its not. The whole reason why Gripen has this requirement was because Sweden, a small country, had a threat that its air strips may be overrun by Soviets. So keep the resistance they wanted to land and take off from roads. In case of India this is neither required nor feasible. You can't land an aircraft in a far flung area on a one lane rickety roads in India (This is not sweden ). And how are you planning to refuel and rearm the aircraft on road. We don't have any such contingency. Also India is too huge for a enemy country to overrun. So we will always have air strip to land an air craft. And given a choice of air strip and road no sane pilot will chose a road.

Are you living in fantasy lands ??/ We can also add that and we can also add that. Saala aese to...just purchase IRST from Selex and fit it in LCA mk2 or give then a contract to build IRST for LCA.
FYI LCA mk2 design and features are already finalized nothing of the 5 things pointed above will be in LCA mk2, get over it. If ADA goes for mk3 then these features can be included in that but for now mk2 does not have any of the above features.
If you know anything about LCA by now the only thing thats not constant is its design features. Need I say more


I told you this before also that NG was going for operational clearance from Swedish AF while first test were going on in 2010. Afterthat it even participated in the test. If we don't give this project to SAAB then it will be delayed and get in Swedish AF by 2017 otherwise it will begin its production before. Similar delays are in many projects participating in MMRCA, all depends on the company which will win the contract.
Gripen NG right now is a prototype. A Technology Demonstrator. Just like the LCA TD flew in 2001 and got IOC in 2011. There can be serious delays here. Why do you want to give this project to SAAB and put 12 Billion dollars of Indian Taxpayer money at risk. If you want to risk that money anyways then give it back to Indians (LCA) instead of Swedish people. On the contrary there are atleast 2 planes (with little risk) that fit the requirement with AESA (F18 and Rafale) so why not buy them?

 

[shaktiman2010]

Sorry but thats not what i meant. We should definitely go for AMCA but its not me who is betting on, its our scientists. Just look at the time frame. Within a decade they will be developing a whole new fighter jet and that too 5th gen. Its not feasible.

You are saying same thing even now, - "We shouldn't do it because it can take time, we should take easier escape route of passing the responsibility of R&D, to foreign firms"

I disagree with your negative & suicidal approach. If we had been thinking like you, then we wouldn't even had attempted LCA and we wouldn't even be in a position today, to contribute anything in FGFA.

If we don't start AMCA now, we will loose valuable time and technology gap between home-based and foreign aerospace R&D efforts will go up.

LCA initiative has put in place basic building blocks within the country, for taking up any kind of fighter aircraft R&D.

AMCA is the next logical thing to do and its the best thing that Indians will be doing in this decade. Its more important than even FGFA, in strategic terms.

 

[jha]

A little something about LCA Mk-II..

Ignis Aerospace Partners With Lectromec, Radel On Aircraft Wiring

Ignis Aerospace is partnering with Lectromec of the U.S. and India’s Radel to analyze the safety and effectiveness of aircraft wiring systems.

Developing or maintaining a wiring system involves more than just ensuring all aircraft components are connected; it is also about minimizing the number and weight of wires, addressing routing needs and determining co-location and arc hazards.

“A cohesive examination of these areas can ensure the safety and reliability of the aircraft systems,” Raj V. Gopal, Ignis vice president for sales and marketing, tells Aviation Week. “This advanced analysis is now available through the Radel, Ignis and Lectromec partnership.”

Ignis is already working on the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 2 in association with India’s Aeronautical Development Agency.

“This partnership significantly improves the knowledge and experience of each of our companies,” says Michael Traskos, president of Lectromec. “I believe that this will be able to provide a comprehensive engineering, design and risk assessment [capability] for both new and existing aircraft.”

Radel has been providing design and manufacturing services to aerospace organizations in India and possesses expertise in aircraft systems, electrical harnesses, test equipment, obsolescence management and other related disciplines.

Lectromec specializes in the field of aircraft wiring testing; electrical wire interconnection systems, risk assessments, wire degradation analysis services, research, and design software for carrying out such analysis.

 

[sancho]

A little something about LCA Mk-II..

Finally the US agreed to some coop for the Tejas, after denying it so often before.

 

[saumyasupratik]

How will the Tejas Mk.II Compare with the Korean F-50?

Both are of more or less same weight and are generally designed to fullfill the same role.Although Tejas Mk.II has a more powerful engine.We might see a different more powerful power plant in F-50.

F-50

 

[tallboy123]

^^wat is FA-50 total payload capacity????

 

[saumyasupratik]

^^wat is FA-50 total payload capacity????

Not know yet.The empty weight and MTOW of T-50 on which it's based on is similar to the Tejas Mk.I.

The FA-50 will have first flight by late 2011 or early 2012.By 2013 RKAF needs 60 of these to replace their old F-5E Tiger's and F-4E Phantom's.