Growing Hindu extremism in india

[JammuWarrior]

So you are suggesting that at no time within pre-Islamic Indian history was the caste system used to commit excesses?
If you wish to bury your head into the ground I have no problem. If you cannot argue without your own bias against other religious, you will be thrown out of this forum with the very same speed at which you continue to post bigoted ideals.

I for one am open to suggestions that the caste system, and its upper echelons did not commit excesses against the lower caste within pre-Islamic Indian History.

Please give me an historical example of Brahmins committing large scale crimes against lower castes? Caste conflicts in ancient time operated like ethnic conflicts such as rival groups fighting each other eg the Jat and Rajput war in Rajasthan. Please provide me an example of where I showed bias and where I posted bigoted ideals?

 

[SQ8]

The problem with your assessment is that there aren't many Hindu extremist preachers. There may be a few morons who teach hatred against Muslims for political gains but they are very few and there is a constant media glare on them and let me make it clear to you, The people of India would stand by each and every Indian who adheres to the constitution of India, be it a Hindu, Muslim or anyone else.




The reason i have brought the other countries is: Many of the Islamic countries (especially countries where minorities are ill treated) have a biased law against the minorities, which give a feeling of supremacy to the majority. Unlike in India, everyone is EQUAL before the law. Get it?

A few? have you seen the number of increased voices heard pre-2014 elections? While Modi himself I find very little inclinations towards extremism or even biased treatment.. the support he raised had a VERY anti-"anything other than Hindu" tone to it. Even well educated Indian Hindus jumped on the bandwagon as if Nirvana was just around the corner with this.

The people of India are like any other population. Their reactions depends upon the swaying of their opinion or the fear of retaliation. If there is ample fear of retaliation by even 15% of the population that is identifiable with the majority 60-80%.. then they will automatically align themselves with it. Unless the Indian government openly dismisses such ideals of "hindutva"(or on the flipside any extreme Muslim ideals) can there be actual balance of opinion or as you say rejection of such ideas. Otherwise any attempt to further colour society saffron in a misplaced attempt to return to some previous glory days will end up in extremist ideals.

The Islamic countries have NOTHING to do with what happens in India. I refuse to believe that you represent all Indians because then it says that Indians are always insecure about their own selves and continue to compare themselves to others in an attempt to put a brake on their social improvement.. your comparison is like saying "We only rape women, not kill them like Islamic countries".. is that acceptable then?

Please give me an historical example of Brahmins committing large scale crimes against lower castes? Caste conflicts in ancient time operated like ethnic conflicts such as rival groups fighting each other eg the Jat and Rajput war in Rajasthan. Please provide me an example of where I showed bias and where I posted bigoted ideals?

Please refer to your deleted posts constantly referencing Islamic nations in an attempt to derail the topic and show bigotry against a religion.

 

[Indischer]

Real power comes from ideology, hence my comparison with the various priestly/ruler classes of other civilizations. They essentially made cultural policy from their perspective and were majorly responsible for the atrocities inflicted by the rulers on the people. Egypt for e.g. is a case in point.. the Pharoahs were fully supported and even provided ideas to engage in genocide based on the priestly class. What the animals within ISIS do now is essentially nothing more than the interpretation of their leadership/priest class.

Where do you think ISIS started? It started out as only a "anti-extension" ideology for Muslims against other Muslims. It started with "awareness" and lectures on the threat to the purity of Islam(just as Hindutva preaches on the sanctity and purity of hinduism being threatened)... then it moved onto open but verbal admonishing of other sects,ideals and religion(just as Hindutva is moving onto).. and eventually.. it started using force to first achieve "conversion" to their cause/religion..and after that genocide... which is exactly where the modern Hindutva phenomenon within India is heading to.

Your comparison is flawed at many levels mate. The rigidity of the caste system should itself serve as an indicator that castes were not allowed to venture outside their professed social duties. Brahmins served only as the keepers of liturgical Hindu knowledge, and kshatriyas never needed any sort of sanction from Brahmins for their actions. Where there was political gain to be had, kshatriyas made war or peace accordingly. A Brahmin is not required to sermonize, but just to advice. The silliest mistake that one could make is to think that Imams/Maulanas in Islam are equivalent to Brahmins in Hinduism.

Hindutva can never take genocidal overtones, simply because it considers all those who reside in India as Hindus....Muslims and Christians included. Other religious groupings are viewed as people who've forgotten their Hindu identity, and the effort is to help them remember and reconnect to their roots, not eliminating them. This has nothing to do with which God to worship or what lines to parrot to appease the God, but about fitting in culturally into the Indian landscape.

Obviously, there are grey areas involved in such ideological stances, and they rightfully need to be addressed. But to compare organizations like RSS in their present avatar with the likes of ISIS would be beyond foolish.

 

[halupridol]

the whole world can very well see n comprehend which religion is closely knit with religious extremism/terrorism,,,n yes u guessed right its not Hinduism
edit-offcourse,,its the juice ,,,just read oscars post

 

[JammuWarrior]

Please refer to your deleted posts constantly referencing Islamic nations in an attempt to derail the topic and show bigotry against a religion.

You must have me confused, none of my posts that were deleted referenced Islamic nations. By the way I am still waiting for that historical example?

 

[SQ8]

You must have me confused, none of my posts that were deleted referenced Islamic nations. By the way I am still waiting for that historical example?

Recent history, and more ironically.. via the British Raj's fuelling of the system shows that the caste system was used to suppress and exploit the lower classes and is still on going today.

Your comparison is flawed at many levels mate. The rigidity of the caste system should itself serve as an indicator that castes were not allowed to venture outside their professed social duties. Brahmins served only as the keepers of liturgical Hindu knowledge, and kshatriyas never needed any sort of sanction from Brahmins for their actions. Where there was political gain to be had, kshatriyas made war or peace accordingly. A Brahmin is not required to sermonize, but just to advice. The silliest mistake that one could make is to think that Imams/Maulanas in Islam are equivalent to Brahmins in Hinduism.

Hindutva can never take genocidal overtones, simply because it considers all those who reside in India as Hindus....Muslims and Christians included. Other religious groupings are viewed as people who've forgotten their Hindu identity, and the effort is to help them remember and reconnect to their roots, not eliminating them. This has nothing to do with which God to worship or what lines to parrot to appease the God, but about fitting in culturally into the Indian landscape.

Obviously, there are grey areas involved in such ideological stances, and they rightfully need to be addressed. But to compare organizations like RSS in their present avatar with the likes of ISIS would be beyond foolish.

Dont the areas bolded essentially both support and negate your reply?
First, if they were there to advise.. they could advise anything.
Second, this forum is example enough that those who support "modern Hindutva" have ZERO belief in that idea.
The third idea itself means that the existence of grey areas leaves it open to any outcome.

 

[JammuWarrior]

Recent history, and more ironically.. via the British Raj's fuelling of the system shows that the caste system was used to suppress and exploit the lower classes and is still on going today.

Your post mentioned caste related exploitation committed specifically by Brahmins, where is that example? Btw I am not Brahmin myself so I have no agenda here.

 

[SQ8]

Your post mentioned caste related exploitation committed specifically by Brahmins, where is that example? Btw I am not Brahmin myself so I have no agenda here.

Just mentioned it, did I not?
The rather deplorable evolution of the Caste system in its rigid but rather less humanly damaging period pre-Raj turned into a full fledged system of targeted bigotry and depravity. The Raj favoured the Upper caste's which included the Brahmin(priests or not) to suppress the lower classes.

 

[Donatello]

Kindly refrain from painting Hindus in general with some rooten eggs the same way you tell other people not to use word Islam with Al queda, ISIS and Taliban. For rest, I hardly comment in some religious threads unless I am dragged or forced to say something so I will leave that to other members.

Which is why if you would have actually bothered to read and comprehend, i mentioned '.....within segments of the society even more so......' and did not mention it as a generalization.

Good thing, you shouldn't post.

Because learning to read comes before ranting.

 

[NKVD]

Recent history, and more ironically.. via the British Raj's fuelling of the system shows that the caste system was used to suppress and exploit the lower classes and is still on going today.

Probably in past so but it was an effective system for hindus as it was running effectively there social hierarchical core for more than 4 millennia's unlike many other cultures like babylonians ,Greeks, Romans were perished with time.but it has to moderate with time it's in vedas it self that change is eminent no one can stop it as time will flow.

 

[Donatello]

Your analogy with Egypt is not even comparable with India, Brahmins never held any power or influence within India apart from a few minor states, read our history in detail if you want to know in more detail.

Please tell me where the proponents of Hindutva have used force to convert others on a major scale comparable to ISIS? Also the stages you mentioned could be used for any religion or nation, it's clear you have some sort of agenda or bias here, you may as well admit it instead of making assumptions on a topic you know very little about.


I think it would be more accurate to call them invading Turks and not invading Muslims.

Okay, Turks vs the Indians....happy?

 

[sree45]

A few? have you seen the number of increased voices heard pre-2014 elections? While Modi himself I find very little inclinations towards extremism or even biased treatment.. the support he raised had a VERY anti-"anything other than Hindu" tone to it. Even well educated Indian Hindus jumped on the bandwagon as if Nirvana was just around the corner with this.

The people of India are like any other population. Their reactions depends upon the swaying of their opinion or the fear of retaliation. If there is ample fear of retaliation by even 15% of the population that is identifiable with the majority 60-80%.. then they will automatically align themselves with it. Unless the Indian government openly dismisses such ideals of "hindutva"(or on the flipside any extreme Muslim ideals) can there be actual balance of opinion or as you say rejection of such ideas. Otherwise any attempt to further colour society saffron in a misplaced attempt to return to some previous glory days will end up in extremist ideals.

PM Modi asserts Indian Muslims will live and die for India, but won't join al Qaeda | Zee News

BJP and Narendra Modi have won Muslim votes too: Clerics - Economic Times


As you can see the Prime Minister of India has backed the Muslims and the Muslims too have voted him to power. So, where is the question of anti-islam? Instead, the govt is introducing new schemes for their welfare

Many minority schemes under consideration: Najma Heptulla | Zee News

There is a section of BJP which has an anti-Islam stand but they are marginalized to a great extent.

The Islamic countries have NOTHING to do with what happens in India. I refuse to believe that you represent all Indians because then it says that Indians are always insecure about their own selves and continue to compare themselves to others in an attempt to put a brake on their social improvement.. your comparison is like saying "We only rape women, not kill them like Islamic countries".. is that acceptable then?


Please refer to your deleted posts constantly referencing Islamic nations in an attempt to derail the topic and show bigotry against a religion.

The minorities in the east and the west of the world are peaceful. That leaves south asia and few parts of Middle east where there are questions about minority rights. So, those are the only countries i can make a comparison with

 

[Indischer]

Recent history, and more ironically.. via the British Raj's fuelling of the system shows that the caste system was used to suppress and exploit the lower classes and is still on going today.



Dont the areas bolded essentially both support and negate your reply?
First, if they were there to advise.. they could advise anything.
Second, this forum is example enough that those who support "modern Hindutva" have ZERO belief in that idea.
The third idea itself means that the existence of grey areas leaves it open to any outcome.

Perhaps wrong choice of words on my part in an attempt to keep it short.....

They(Brahmins) could advice anything, and it's precisely why it's taken just as an advice, not a binding declaration that must be fulfilled to the last letter.

and I say grey areas because Hindutva is not a proven old-world order. It's a fairly recent ideology that does not even touch upon the religious aspects of Hinduism, but purely on the cultural antagonisms on the subcontinent post a number of foreign invasions and their associated impact. Hindutva is by no means a flawless ideology, and it needs good thinkers and leaders to take it in the right direction. But it's not militant or dogmatic or fundamentalist either.

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

All of them are a new brand of mercenaries. Hindutvas on the other hand locked its own followers in a pathetic caste system, which no one could escape, unless they were either killed or converted to another faith.

For many thousands of years based on a historic myth of a 'cleaner race', the Brahmin scum has inflicted a level of barbarity upon the women, widows, Shudras and other low castes which no terrorist group can even contemplate to match.

There is a considerable world of difference between discrimination on the basis of societal norms and killing on the basis of religion. Misguided as the earlier generations of Hindus were, their level of respect for human life far exceeded what we are seeing in the pre-medieval mindsets of other groups today.

 

[JammuWarrior]

Just mentioned it, did I not?
The rather deplorable evolution of the Caste system in its rigid but rather less humanly damaging period pre-Raj turned into a full fledged system of targeted bigotry and depravity. The Raj favoured the Upper caste's which included the Brahmin(priests or not) to suppress the lower classes.

The entire debate started because you said:
"The Brahman rulers(when the caste system truly existed in full force) are recorded within Indian history itself to have abused their quasi-religious cultural powers. This is the same as the priest class within South America(Ironically, also called Indians by westerners)..many places in Africa.. and was also persistent with many rulers within Mongol and Muslim lands. While glorified there are recorded instances of the Ottoman rulers capturing slave women for their harem's and forcefully converting them(even though some later rose to the rank of wives)."
I've been continuously asking you where the Brahmins have been abusing there powers in history?