Give Pak A Chance

[blitz]

We are fortunate that we have an Indian muslim member on this board.

Ok, regarding this 'ethnic cleansing of muslims' in India, as claimed by our Pakistani members, i would like to ask Kashif what is his take on this. Do you think the rights of muslims in India are deliberately curbed by the government ? What do you think is the reason for discrimination, if any, of muslims in India ?

Kashif, please disregard this question if you feel its inappropriate. Its not to put you in a spot, but i am genuinely curious.

PS: nevermind, i just saw your earlier post.

 

[KashifAsrar]

We are fortunate that we have an Indian muslim member on this board.

Ok, regarding this 'ethnic cleansing of muslims' in India, as claimed by our Pakistani members, i would like to ask Kashif what is his take on this.
Kashif, please disregard this question if you feel its inappropriate. Its not to put you in a spot, but i am genuinely curious.

PS: nevermind, i just saw your earlier post.

Blitz your question deserve an honest and straight answer. Members are free to dis-agree if they wish. Here I go.

Ethnic Cleansing: Completely and utterly false. PROPAGANDA stuff I would say. There are more mosques in India than in Pakistan/Bagladesh. There are probably equal number of Madrasa as in Pakistan/Bangladesh. There is MORE freedom for expressing our views than muslims have in Pakistan/Bangladesh. We have MOST politically active muslim society compared to ANY where in the world. Muslim representatives are in almost every party, even in a fundametalist party like BJP. Muslims vote in every and each election throught out in India, including Kashmir. These are NOT the signs of a community which is being ethinically cleansed! Period.

Do you think the rights of muslims in India are deliberately curbed by the government ? What do you think is the reason for discrimination, if any, of muslims in India ?

Now to this question. Short answer YES!
Muslim that remain in India after the tragic partition were most poor, illitrate and resourceless group of united India. This is a fact. There was no attempt, till date, from any government, to integrate these muslims in to main stream. A lot of is done for poor and deprived Hindus, which was good but nothing such for minorites. The only thing that is required, is the fact, in every election Muslim vote is counted, hence they are always paid lip service before elections and after wards thrown to dustbin. This is happening since independance. Initially after independence, these politicians, inherently, carry the (mis) conception that people of this country (read Hindu majority) believe that these are the very people that dis-integrated the country. Hence they must be taught a lesson or atleast never allowed to 'come up' to us. They will again ask for greater stake and share then! This 'Fear of Hindu majority' has played havoc. If you see, then you will notice that in last 60+ years majority of Hindus have voted for secular parties. So this fear was ill-based. But this fear has become a habbit now.

Consequences: What happened now is that after such a long period, Muslim are at the bottom of the list in India. (Reader can have a look at the Justice Sachar committee report regarding this). Now many things were happening lately in the muslim world and else where. Indian muslim watches all this and wonders where they deserve a genuine share in this country's resources or not. Over a period of such a long time it created a strong sense of deprivation and hence a reactionary attitude among muslim masses. Political leadership alwaya try to reap rewards by playing communal card as they deem fit for the situation. As I mentioned there are many Muslim leaders in the country, but there is no central muslim leadership. So there is no coherent voice in favour of muslim greivences. The situation viz-a-viz education, employement, economy, police and defence services, judiciary etc. is so grim for muslims, that now even these very politicians believe that this kind of situation is IDEAL for any Jihaadi outfit to take advantage of muslim pscyche. This is very dangerous.

What need to be done immidiately?
Claer cut and effective policies with respect to education, employement, quick and effective judcial decision for the pending cases and security for the life and property of muslims in particular and all Indians in general must be maintained and implemented quickely. Otherwise time is running out. Our national leadership can not continue behaving like ostrich, by ignoring true grievences of minorities of this great country.

Readers are free to dis-agree with me.

Kashif

 

[blitz]

Although i agree with you on almost all points, one more problem is India's immense population. In percentage terms, yes it may seem like muslims are deprived, but if you look at pure numbers, poverty among the vast Hindu population far outstrips muslim numbers. Its a difficult situation with no clear cut solutions. Its a limited pie, of which all the deprived classes, Muslims, SC/STs, OBCs, tribal groups, Assamese, etc etc want a piece of.

Then there is the question of 'Muslim personal law' in India. It is indeed a great dilemma as to whether all citizens of India be subject to the same laws, or should there be different laws for different communities as currently. The concept of differing laws for different religions is contradictory to the very concept of Nation State. I don't know if freedom of religion or consistency of law should prevail, although i tilt towards the latter. In my view the law of the land should be supreme, regardless of one's religion, caste or creed.

Pakistan has also played its part in creating the misery of Indian Muslims. There continual Jihad against India has fomented mutual mistrust. India's muslims have been held hostage to Pakistani actions, where they used you around like pawns.

I would say that part of the reason for Muslim isolation in India is because Muslims do not want to completely assimilate. Or am i wrong on this ?

Of course i am not saying all this to justify anything, but rather to understand the reasons behind this.

The best indicator will be the future though. India's per capita GDP is supposed to quadruple by 2020. If the IM community lags behind considerably, it means there is a serious structural problem. If not, then i would say IMs have not been singled out, but rather are part of the same deprivation that the rest of India suffers.

 

[Scorpius]

A.

Then there is the question of 'Muslim personal law' in India. It is indeed a great dilemma as to whether all citizens of India be subject to the same laws, or should there be different laws for different communities as currently. The concept of differing laws for different religions is contradictory to the very concept of Nation State. I don't know if freedom of religion or consistency of law should prevail, although i tilt towards the latter. In my view the law of the land should be supreme, regardless of one's religion, caste or creed.

There should be one law for all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity. I think the caste barrier is a big problem in India, I hope they sort it out one day. It stinks of racism to me.

 

[blitz]

Scorpius, do you even know what am i talking about ?
http://www.aimplboard.org/aims.html

 

[Scorpius]

Yes I was aware you was talking about how different religious communities want different laws hence my first sentence.

The remaining sentences were about Caste though, two different issues. Perhaps I should have used a paragraph to separate them.

 

[blitz]

oh i apologize then. I thought you connected IML to caste.

 

[Scorpius]

It's ok no need to apologize.

If I was an Indian I wouldn't like the aims and objectives of the IML. The law of the land is for everyone, different communities cannot have their own separate laws. It would be like numerous small states within one country.

 

[KashifAsrar]

Although i agree with you on almost all points, one more problem is India's immense population. In percentage terms, yes it may seem like muslims are deprived, but if you look at pure numbers, poverty among the vast Hindu population far outstrips muslim numbers. Its a difficult situation with no clear cut solutions. Its a limited pie, of which all the deprived classes, Muslims, SC/STs, OBCs, tribal groups, Assamese, etc etc want a piece of.

I agree we have a second largest population in the world.
I disagree here blitz. This is a limited pie. OK. But if this PIE is big enough to feed a certain large section of the population since last 60 years, it is logical to assume that it is big enough to support the other deprived classes of this country. What I see, and again I may be wrong in your opinion, there is marked reluctance to SHARE the pie equally among the populace. This clearly create problems. Have you ever think why these indian muslim complain so much? One complain to the person, where one expect a sympathetic shoulder! Indian muslims do not go to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran to complain about their grievences! We always come to OUR government. We expect a sypathetic hearing and a solution to the genuine grievences. If Muslim are given (say) a reservation in employement, it would not change thier situtation overnight! But then they will have a consolation and no foriegn element would be able to exploit thier sense of deprivation!

Then there is the question of 'Muslim personal law' in India. It is indeed a great dilemma as to whether all citizens of India be subject to the same laws, or should there be different laws for different communities as currently. The concept of differing laws for different religions is contradictory to the very concept of Nation State. I don't know if freedom of religion or consistency of law should prevail, although i tilt towards the latter. In my view the law of the land should be supreme, regardless of one's religion, caste or creed.

I agree on many points. Personal Law is a concern. But then it has many faces. One face that you mentioned, that there should be a same law for all. Agreed. there should be simmilarity of laws for every one. But then our constitution also say that we are free to practice our religion. Now if there is a inheritance dispute, or marriage dispute between muslims parties, not involving any other non-muslim entity directly or indirectly, then the court decision should not be against SHARIYAT. Ideally speaking, any law is welcome, untill it do not interfere in muslim religous affairs. But then there is always scope to discuss it further.

Pakistan has also played its part in creating the misery of Indian Muslims. There continual Jihad against India has fomented mutual mistrust. India's muslims have been held hostage to Pakistani actions, where they used you around like pawns.

Pakistan played its part, as I said directly or indirectly. And I did not get when you say

I would say that part of the reason for Muslim isolation in India is because Muslims do not want to completely assimilate. Or am i wrong on this ?

Please be clear here. How?

The best indicator will be the future though. India's per capita GDP is supposed to quadruple by 2020. If the IM community lags behind considerably, it means there is a serious structural problem. If not, then i would say IMs have not been singled out, but rather are part of the same deprivation that the rest of India suffers.

Yes let us hope for the best. Never loose hope. There is always light at the end of tunnel! I firmly believe in it.
Kashif

 

[dabong1]

Then there is the question of 'Muslim personal law' in India. It is indeed a great dilemma as to whether all citizens of India be subject to the same laws, or should there be different laws for different communities as currently. The concept of differing laws for different religions is contradictory to the very concept of Nation State. I don't know if freedom of religion or consistency of law should prevail, although i tilt towards the latter. In my view the law of the land should be supreme, regardless of one's religion, caste or creed..

What are the things that muslims are allowed to do that non muslims in india can not.....just curious.
In pakistan the only example i can think of is that christians can buy alchol but muslims can not.

Pakistan has also played its part in creating the misery of Indian Muslims. There continual Jihad against India has fomented mutual mistrust. India's muslims have been held hostage to Pakistani actions, where they used you around like pawns. ..

Bro the father of the missiles/atomic programme in india is a muslim.
If the indian muslims where so pro pakistani ,why did they not help pakistan during the wars with india?
India as far as i can tell uses how anti pakistani a indian muslims is to check his patriotism.

I would say that part of the reason for Muslim isolation in India is because Muslims do not want to completely assimilate. Or am i wrong on this ? ..

What do you mean by "assimilate"? If you mean convert to hinduisim then i think that will be a bridge to far for most indian muslims.
If you mean "assimilate" like the hindu indian's did during the mughal/british period then i do not think it will be a problem.

The best indicator will be the future though. India's per capita GDP is supposed to quadruple by 2020. If the IM community lags behind considerably, it means there is a serious structural problem. If not, then i would say IMs have not been singled out, but rather are part of the same deprivation that the rest of India suffers.

Not being funny but is that not what jinnah predicted would happin to the muslims under india,they would be at the bottom of the social ladder.

 

[Always Neutral]

What are the things that muslims are allowed to do that non muslims in india can not.....just curious.
In pakistan the only example i can think of is that christians can buy alchol but muslims can not. .

Dear Dabong1,

No offense but some of your posts are very pragmatic and some of them are very scary.

The ones you debate with fellow muslims are always balanced but when an Indian joins in you see a red flag (not praising bull) We all exist in this world and nothing can change that and actually though Keys and Neo could misuse their positions I never see them doing that, though they are muslims.

just my views and you can ignore them if you wish.

Regrds

 

[Ababeel]

Nice to know that you think of 1 billion people as Monsters.

Never in a country 100% people will be Monsters, but when Narendra Modi own the election of Gujarat for the 2nd time, the real face of majority of the Hindus came to the fore.
What was that?
When the BJP comes to power on the issue of destruction of the Babari masjid, what even a simple person not even sound politically will think?
When Thakeray carries out massacre of muslims in Mumbai and then comes to power what any one will think?
These are just few examples. Otherwise the modern history of India is full of anti muslim riots to systematically destroy them economically, educationally, psycologically and culturally.

Have you read all the holy books and customs of all the other religions

No other community is as interested in knowing about the religion of others as muslims do.
You are not ready to know even your own religion and when some one gives you proof of Oneness of God or Prophecies of Prophet of Islam you are just reject it in one go.
And what do you think you have studied Islam fully as you most freely give your verdicts on Hijab, Polygamy, Ummah Concept etc?

We are not the one's who are saying it. They are. Your fellow brethern. They are the one's who cry Allah ho akbar beheads a german woman or daniel pearl.

As they themselves think they are muslims they will naturally say Allah-u-Akbar. This is same when Hindu hard liners chant "Har Har Mahadev" , " Agar is desh mein rahna hoga , Vande Mataram kahna hoga" and other slogans while killing muslims in India.

I know that, But your fellow brethern should also know that. More they attack the non-muslims for creation of the great calliphate and islamic rule, more will your religion tarnished in the face of non-muslims, more will you be treated as the enemy of non-muslims

Who saed you they are fighting for the Calliphate. They are so strong?
They are just defending their own home lands which are under occupation. They are just trying to inflict as much losses as possible so that their enemy will one day leave their land and they can leave freely.

First study the Sharia law and then talk about it. Sharia has clearly defined the rights of a Believer and a Non-Believer clearly. Just on example: If Sharia impose Jiziya or Protection tax on a Zimmi then it also makes it compulsory for a muslim to pay Zakat and Ushr with whom you can't compare Jizya.

 

[Ababeel]

IceCold, did i write any rubbish about Islam ? I said i 'could' too, in the same manner as those pics put up on the thread were somehow = 'Hindu terrorism'. Thats the word used by the guy who put those pics, meaning he was attributing the terrorist act to Hindusim, not Indians.If not,why didn't he say,'Indian terrorism'?See my point?

I did not write Hindu Terrorism but :
"Hindu Terrorist and their acts in the name of Hinduism"
One more thing I started this in response to the cheap words always used by the culprit who is not refraining himself from saying the words "Mualim Terrorists" and "Islamic Terrorism" again and again despite countless warnings by Neo and others in large number of threads in this forum and as long as I am concerned I can't refrain from calling "Hindu Terrorist" or "Hindu Fascist" as long as he steps back. Otherwise if I have used "Hindu Terrorism" before in any thread I will not write it again. However I am not understanding your point to call those acts "Indian Terrorism" while all the people living in India are called Indians irrespective of their religiuos identity. I think it is enough from my side

 

[dabong1]

Dear Dabong1,

No offense but some of your posts are very pragmatic and some of them are very scary.

The ones you debate with fellow muslims are always balanced but when an Indian joins in you see a red flag (not praising bull) We all exist in this world and nothing can change that and actually though Keys and Neo could misuse their positions I never see them doing that, though they are muslims.

just my views and you can ignore them if you wish.

Regrds

Bro no offence taken but i would appreciate it if you could point out some post out where you thought i was wrong in my criticism.

"What are the things that muslims are allowed to do that non muslims in india can not.....just curious.
in pakistan the only example i can think of is that christians can buy alchol but muslims can not."

I can not see anything wrong in what i have posted above,please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Neo]

Temporarily closed for moderation.
Neo