Gelsenkirchen: Controversial Lenin statue erected in German city

[jamahir]

Again talking of utopia. Show me a moneyless economy.

I have said this before. Not entirely money-less but all basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

@jamahir Talk of Lenin and the mental picture that comes to my mind is not socialism / communism but the Soviet Russia where he was worshipped by building statues, naming cities, references in Soviet children's story books etc. Anyone else who feels like this?

- PRTP GWD

Yes, that cult of personality thing is over-doing it.

It's stupid to compare GDPs without considering population otherwise Nigeria is richer than Luxembourg.

Soumitra asked for top economies and I gave him. It is he who should consider the availability of money in a technically wealthy country and its non-spending on setting up of a welfare state.

 

[Naofumi]

Soumitra asked for top economies and I gave him.

No you didn't. India is not a developed economy by any standard.

 

[jamahir]

No you didn't. India is not a developed economy by any standard.

A "developed country" and "developed economy" are different things. India is the latter. Otherwise what is it ?

 

[Naofumi]

A "developed country" and "developed economy" are different things. India is the latter. Otherwise what is it ?

It's a agriculture based, newly-industrialized, emerging market - developing country. Far from a developed one.

 

[OIO]

I didn't understand. This is from Germany.

The protesters in America are pulling down all statues but Lenin.

 

[jamahir]

The protesters in America are pulling down all statues but Lenin.

That is a point and the Antifa movement seems to be active in these protests. But also interesting is that the Lenin statues are not really in public areas like road inter-sections, fountains etc :

 

[Soumitra]

I have said this before. Not entirely money-less but all basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Why should a government decide what is essential and non essential. Why should I behave in a certain way for example have "empathy" for poor to get social credit. I work in a company, get salary and pay taxes Why should the government prevent me from enjoying my life

 

[jamahir]

It's a agriculture based, newly-industrialized, emerging market - developing country. Far from a developed one.

Raw agriculture, mining, textile and leather goods manufacturing, chemical manufacturing, processed foods manufacturing, IT / ITES services, etc etc... Could have been a good way to export these and and put that received money into developing India. I believe even the capitalist Nordic country of Norway has a welfare state system. India having a higher population cannot be argued.

A good proportion of India's earned money went into making India into the second largest importer of armaments in the world and in maintaining a large military.

And India being a "Emerging market" is inconsequential here. Having hundreds of millions of mobile phone users and tens of millions of car owners hasn't developed India.

Why should a government decide

I am not talking about a one-party dictatorial state but about a state where the people rule directly but have a progressive socio-economic system to govern them.

Why should a government decide what is essential and non essential.

What is your understanding of essential and non-essential ?

Why should I behave in a certain way for example have "empathy" for poor to get social credit.

1. Let's say every month a person is automatically credited with 500 Social Credits. Now it depends on the person to make his Credits higher or lower or possibly be punished by doing or not doing certain things.

2. In the society I am describing there will be no poor.

I work in a company, get salary and pay taxes

Why do you want to pay road tax ? The government should have instead promised to keep you safe from avoidable road accidents.

Why should the government prevent me from enjoying my life

Who's stopping you from enjoying your life ? Unless you mean laughing at the very avoidable miseries of others.

 

[Naofumi]

@jamahir bro, I hate debates on which I have to spoon-feed the opponent, at least google things before typing.
You know that Norway have large reserves of oil, right? Even without oil reserves, they were miles ahead in terms of per capita when we just became independent (1947). You speak without any calculations and it irks me, even allocating military budget can't support a welfare state you tout - defence budget is around 60 billion dollar, nearly 44 dollars (approx. 3500 Rupees) per Indian and how can we abolish the military budget when we are surrounded by hostile enemies? Given that we should have made peace and reduced it but it's still pointless to blame it solely for failure to establish a welfare state - every country needs defence - even your idol USSR or North Korean despot Kim. Don't you see the problem? We simply don't have enough jobs, our 60% of population engage in agriculture, then how can you compare us with Norway where everyone have cushy jobs?
And man, you strawman ideas as if you don't even bother to read Wikipedia, emerging market doesn't mean "buying cars and phones", lol.

Julien Vercueil recently proposed an pragmatic definition of the "emerging economies", as distinguished from "emerging markets" coined by an approach heavily influenced by financial criteria. According to his definition, an emerging economy displays the following characteristics:[13]

Intermediate income: its PPP per capita income is comprised between 10% and 75% of the average EU per capita income.

Catching-up growth: during at least the last decade, it has experienced a brisk economic growth that has narrowed the income gap with advanced economies.

Institutional transformations and economic opening: during the same period, it has undertaken profound institutional transformations which contributed to integrate it more deeply into the world economy. Hence, emerging economies appears to be a by-product of the current globalization.

 

[Soumitra]

Raw agriculture, mining, textile and leather goods manufacturing, chemical manufacturing, processed foods manufacturing, IT / ITES services, etc etc... Could have been a good way to export these and and put that received money into developing India. I believe even the capitalist Nordic country of Norway has a welfare state system. India having a higher population cannot be argued.

A good proportion of India's earned money went into making India into the second largest importer of armaments in the world and in maintaining a large military.

And India being a "Emerging market" is inconsequential here. Having hundreds of millions of mobile phone users and tens of millions of car owners hasn't developed India.



I am not talking about a one-party dictatorial state but about a state where the people rule directly but have a progressive socio-economic system to govern them.



What is your understanding of essential and non-essential ?



1. Let's say every month a person is automatically credited with 500 Social Credits. Now it depends on the person to make his Credits higher or lower or possibly be punished by doing or not doing certain things.

2. In the society I am describing there will be no poor.



Why do you want to pay road tax ? The government should have instead promised to keep you safe from avoidable road accidents.



Who's stopping you from enjoying your life ? Unless you mean laughing at the very avoidable miseries of others.

I love money and the capitalist system.

More than poor, I laugh when commies are thrown in jail

 

[jamahir]

I love money and the capitalist system.

I have asked you to stop worshiping the goddess of money. Money is not from Nature.

More than poor, I laugh when commies are thrown in jail

You laugh at the commies and the commies are empathetic to the poor.

When A=B and B=C then A=C.

So you are laughing at the poor.

You know that Norway have large reserves of oil, right?

Yes, Norway has oil and gas but India has other things to export. According to this Wikipedia page, India exported 330.07 billion dollars of goods and services in 2019. How was that earning employed within India ?

and how can we abolish the military budget when we are surrounded by hostile enemies?

Isn't it ridiculous that the "defense" minister of India does puja by breaking a coconut on a French fighter jet while a starving man in India has to feed off a dog killed on the road ?

Given that we should have made peace and reduced it

Of course ! Make peace with China and Pakistan.

I have put together a solution for peace between India and Pakistan which will as side effect resolve the Kashmir issue. The solution is there in the magazine section. The Establishments of the two countries should take heed of such solutions ( me and or others ).

I don't know if you know that the Indian military is part of an anti-China grouping that includes Australia, Japan and a few others in the region. Get out of this grouping.

Make India an opponent of NATO and then I will encourage India to have a defensive military and part of NATO-opposing groupings such as SCO. But not now when the country has a ridiculous socio-economic system.

emerging market doesn't mean "buying cars and phones", lol.

Educate me then.

 

[Naofumi]

How is that earning employed within India ?

Firstly, factor the per capita export, Norway is top 10 in it, we are at 111 position. And man, that money is employed in different ways, do you think that this much money if taxed heavily by government can turn India into an utopia? Seriously? It's hardly 20k Rupees per person of which a good portion is already taxed by the government.

Isn't it ridiculous that the "defense" minister of India does puja by breaking a coconut on a French fighter jet while a starving man in India has to feed off a dog killed on the road ?

Yeah, breaking coconut is stupid but the fighter jet is a necessity unless you convince the rest of the world to abolish their military first starting from Russia, North Korea first.

Make India an opponent of NATO and then I will encourage India to have a defensive military and part of NATO-opposing groupings such as SCO.

A big no! Even after making peace, we should stick to NATO camp or be relatively neutral, we enjoy a positive trade balance with US of nearly 23 billion US Dollar and 50 billion negative with China - easy to pick the beneficial side, for growth we also require a lot of investment too - that can't come solely from China... Sorry, your anti-NATO activism don't fit with India's growth requirements. And both China and Russia are capitalist with Russia being an extremely unequal oligarchy, you know that right?

Educate me then.

Search it man.