Future of SD-10 in PAF?

[MastanKhan]

You are welcome.
As far as the actual max range of a missile is concerned it is not FIXED FOR ANY MISSILE. One day you can even see an IR guided missile hitting at 25kms while even an Active BVR Missing at 25kms even if the target doesn't take evassive maneuver. Even IF THE GUIDANCE IS OF SAME TYPE FOR TWO MISSILES, Max Range depends upon Multiple of factors:-

a) Aerodynamics

This is ofcourse the main factor. If the missile is of thin Diameter and long in design with agile actuators (its control fins) then it has more ranges. How?? it will be understood below.

b) Motor burnout Time

If the missile's motor burnout time is more due to the nature of Propulsion / Fuel in it, it can travel more distance. Typical missiles possess 10-20 seconds of motor burnout time. Please note that in this phase (when the motor is burning) the missile is very less agile due to The forward force.

c) Height of the launching Platform

In Aerial battle the height of launching platform is one of the main factors for the max range of missile. In case of BVRs, The Higher the launching platform is the more will be range of BVR. But again the agility will be compromised due to Low air density, it is here that the Aerodynamic design comes into account.

The other factors are:-
- Rate of closure of the two Aircrafts
- Aspect Angle between them

An SU-30 carring AA-12 at 15000 feet will have less max range than The same at 30000.

Max SD-10 range can b calculated by its Motorburnout time vs Speed graph at a given height.

An interesting thing:-
If you consider the max ceiling a JF-17 can climb and launch SD-10 and its Adversery also coming towards him HEAD-ON. Both Aircrafts at Mach-2, I won't wonder if the SD-10 Hits the Adversary at 120kms

Hi,

The issue is not what the SD10 can or could do in the future---. The issue brought up is that we needed to have access to higher TIER BVR missile than what is available to us now---or in future.

And that is where I had stated---that was evident some 15 years ago---. That is when the planning and procurement should have been made to secure the future dealings with the French. That did not happen---the Paf failed to do what was needed of it.

Then comes another opportune moment in the shape of Yemen crisis---and in this case Gen Raheel Shareef fails miserably as well---.

Gen Raheel was only fit to be a corps commander---not a commander in chief---. He should have assessed the coming problems---but he did not listen---.

He was so full of confidence about his achievements that he decided on his own to visit the U S and try to show the americans what he ha done---not realizing that the americans had already walked away from pakistan---.

Yemen alliance would have again opened up the opportunity with the French to have made some good deals---.

Total overall terrible planning.

New account made by serving officer to defend the SD-10, intriguing.

Hi,

Can't blame him for that---he's got what he's got---he is going to make the best of it---so he is going to defend it as well---.

Sir, why not to make an attempt to turn the steering wheel a bit in right direction through any kind of source/bridge that may overcome or minimize further failures, if any.

Hi,

This board had the chance and the ability to turn the steering 180*---but those in power positions at Paf had no concept of strategy / gamesmanship / tactical procurement.

These same superstars till yesterday were bragging about all combat to be WVR---how could they understand the intricacies of the combat at BVR---.

You had to be knowledgeable about BVR combat in the 90's---if you had read books---these SUPPOSED WORKS OF FICTION in the 90's---they were open about where air warfare technology and weapons were headed. These books were WORKS OF FICTION in NAME ONLY----they laid out the actual coming capabilities of the u s air force out in the open for everyone to read and know.

It was so BLATANTLY OPEN material that majority took it for PURE FICTION---which it was not and never was---. The talk in the books was of real stuff in the field operation---but as it was not in the field at that time---it was considered to be fake.

On this very board some 10 years ago and on pakdef dot org I wrote some 12 years ago---that the U S has moved away from wvr combat---and the pilots are being trained more for BVR engagements---to launch the BVR missiles and then break away for the reason that a superior BVR missile and a superior EW suite will create air superiority in the theater---.

And I was lambasted for that by everyone----now you kids and adults are going to be smashed real time---.

When you go WVR---you lose all your superiority and the margin is 50 / 50---.

Now don't expect that your paf general would also be knowledgeable of these changes---remember---what your generals were saying in the first gulf war---they were illiterate then and not much has changed---.

This place---this very board---you the literate ones---you had the chance to make the difference---break the chains---but you kids acted like the worst enemies of pakistan---thru your poor decision making---thru a lack of understanding---due to lack of listening---you guys did not do anything different than what was being done in pakistan.

Now that you guys are being cornered---and going thru slow strangulation---and some of those on the periphrey are begining to see the noose being tightened have begun to realize about the folly that the paf made.

My screams of pain---you have been hearing for the last 10 years---now it is your turn---your sceams of pain are just begining to register----you will be screaming louder---it is all a matter of time now.

A problem is never solved by killing the messenger----it is just the begining of more problems to come.


Any naysayers on this board----just pick the books by Dale Brown and start reading from the first book till the one in the mid 2005----. There many other writers like him that have laid it out things not beyond imagination for the time they were written in.

All the tactical stuff he wrote about the air force / air combat has come true so far.

There was a very interesting read I had in one of his books---it had the picture of a B1 bomber on it I think---he writes about EW aircraft that would have super computer in it that could access into the brain of the incoming bvr missiles thru data link---break the code---reprogram the code and turn the missile against the enemy---truth or fiction----?

 

[zebra7]

SD-10 has even got some superiority over Adder. The A-Pole of SD-10 is met earlier, which makes its platform a bit safer during the Crank. If Firing Doctorine not set on Rmax, the DLZ shooting capability of SD-10 is also a bit superior to AA-12. In Block-3, the SD-10 proves clearly to be a supirior choice than Adder.

Which version of Adder/ R77

 

[Qabza Group]

Hi,

The issue is not what the SD10 can or could do in the future---. The issue brought up is that we needed to have access to higher TIER BVR missile than what is available to us now---or in future.

And that is where I had stated---that was evident some 15 years ago---. That is when the planning and procurement should have been made to secure the future dealings with the French. That did not happen---the Paf failed to do what was needed of it.

Then comes another opportune moment in the shape of Yemen crisis---and in this case Gen Raheel Shareef fails miserably as well---.

Gen Raheel was only fit to be a corps commander---not a commander in chief---. He should have assessed the coming problems---but he did not listen---.

He was so full of confidence about his achievements that he decided on his own to visit the U S and try to show the americans what he ha done---not realizing that the americans had already walked away from pakistan---.

Yemen alliance would have again opened up the opportunity with the French to have made some good deals---.

Total overall terrible planning.



Hi,

Can't blame him for that---he's got what he's got---he is going to make the best of it---so he is going to defend it as well---.



Hi,

This board had the chance and the ability to turn the steering 180*---but those in power positions at Paf had no concept of strategy / gamesmanship / tactical procurement.

These same superstars till yesterday were bragging about all combat to be WVR---how could they understand the intricacies of the combat at BVR---.

You had to be knowledgeable about BVR combat in the 90's---if you had read books---these SUPPOSED WORKS OF FICTION in the 90's---they were open about where air warfare technology and weapons were headed. These books were WORKS OF FICTION in NAME ONLY----they laid out the actual coming capabilities of the u s air force out in the open for everyone to read and know.

It was so BLATANTLY OPEN material that majority took it for PURE FICTION---which it was not and never was---. The talk in the books was of real stuff in the field operation---but as it was not in the field at that time---it was considered to be fake.

On this very board some 10 years ago and on I wrote some 12 years ago---that the U S has moved away from wvr combat---and the pilots are being trained more for BVR engagements---to launch the BVR missiles and then break away for the reason that a superior BVR missile and a superior EW suite will create air superiority in the theater---.

And I was lambasted for that by everyone----now you kids and adults are going to be smashed real time---.

When you go WVR---you lose all your superiority and the margin is 50 / 50---.

Now don't expect that your paf general would also be knowledgeable of these changes---remember---what your generals were saying in the first gulf war---they were illiterate then and not much has changed---.

This place---this very board---you the literate ones---you had the chance to make the difference---break the chains---but you kids acted like the worst enemies of pakistan---thru your poor decision making---thru a lack of understanding---due to lack of listening---you guys did not do anything different than what was being done in pakistan.

Now that you guys are being cornered---and going thru slow strangulation---and some of those on the periphrey are begining to see the noose being tightened have begun to realize about the folly that the paf made.

My screams of pain---you have been hearing for the last 10 years---now it is your turn---your sceams of pain are just begining to register----you will be screaming louder---it is all a matter of time now.

A problem is never solved by killing the messenger----it is just the begining of more problems to come.


Any naysayers on this board----just pick the books by Dale Brown and start reading from the first book till the one in the mid 2005----. There many other writers like him that have laid it out things not beyond imagination for the time they were written in.

All the tactical stuff he wrote about the air force / air combat has come true so far.

There was a very interesting read I had in one of his books---it had the picture of a B1 bomber on it I think---he writes about EW aircraft that would have super computer in it that could access into the brain of the incoming bvr missiles thru data link---break the code---reprogram the code and turn the missile against the enemy---truth or fiction----?

The theatre of Aerial battle in Subcontinent is just the Indo-Pak scenerio, In which one country has got russian based AA-12 and the other one has got AIM-120C + SD-10. The Cost effectiveness of all these projects do come into the account.
While your concerns are right, it may also be considered that:-
- A force has not only to procure a specific equipment, it has to get its spares support for a quite long period of time. The cost of spares do increase with aging. The effectiveness of weapon may be questioned after 5 years but then the force can not decommission it after 5 years. So the AGREEMENT COST includes all this. If PAF was going to procure one US weapon that too of a good caliber with Spares support, then Going for a cheaper but even efficient weapon in shape of SD-10 is not a bad planning. Even SD-10 being a superior choice than what Adversary has got as best (AA-12).

- The Air force has not only to procure Aireal Firing weapons but it has to look for a viable option of Airdefence equipment for earlywarning, SAMs, Even EW suits as you mentioned, ASV/ASW weapons thus this is a whole PACKAGE which an Airforce has to keep in mind. Which has got ECONOMICAL IMPLICATIONS. In a country where each individual always points out the defence budget, going for high priced equipment is a much difficult task.

- There is nothing better than producing own equipment jointly with full technology transfer. If one keeps on buying things from other countries, it msy not ever be able to produce its own. Who knows in future PAF may start to produce good AAMs after mastering this Aircraft manufacturing.

Which version of Adder/ R77

R-77 (standard), RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M

 

[aliyusuf]

R-77 (standard), RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M

Sir, I am assuming that it is plausible that you may have enough information on the R-77 standard and that SD-10 somehow has the advantages in performance over it as you had mentioned ... but shouldn't RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M have significantly better characteristics than the R-77 standard and also quite understandably be better than SD-10? Otherwise what's the point in having just additional kinematic range?
Your response would help me clear my mind on the topic.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The theatre of Aerial battle in Subcontinent is just the Indo-Pak scenerio, In which one country has got russian based AA-12 and the other one has got AIM-120C + SD-10. The Cost effectiveness of all these projects do come into the account.
While your concerns are right, it may also be considered that:-
- A force has not only to procure a specific equipment, it has to get its spares support for a quite long period of time. The cost of spares do increase with aging. The effectiveness of weapon may be questioned after 5 years but then the force can not decommission it after 5 years. So the AGREEMENT COST includes all this. If PAF was going to procure one US weapon that too of a good caliber with Spares support, then Going for a cheaper but even efficient weapon in shape of SD-10 is not a bad planning. Even SD-10 being a superior choice than what Adversary has got as best (AA-12).

- The Air force has not only to procure Aireal Firing weapons but it has to look for a viable option of Airdefence equipment for earlywarning, SAMs, Even EW suits as you mentioned, ASV/ASW weapons thus this is a whole PACKAGE which an Airforce has to keep in mind. Which has got ECONOMICAL IMPLICATIONS. In a country where each individual always points out the defence budget, going for high priced equipment is a much difficult task.

- There is nothing better than producing own equipment jointly with full technology transfer. If one keeps on buying things from other countries, it msy not ever be able to produce its own. Who knows in future PAF may start to produce good AAMs after mastering this Aircraft manufacturing.



R-77 (standard), RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M

To get into AAM manufacturing Pakistan would need to access vendors willing to release incredibly valuable propulsion and guidance technologies. For what it's worth, Denel Dynamics is willing to release at least some of that expertise in exchange for a co-funding partner to help with the Marlin. Unfortunately, this would be a risky venture as the technology in question - including coveted dual-pulse propulsion - is in the development and demonstrator phase. Riskiness isn't inherently bad, but when funding is tight all around, the decision-makers will have a higher incentive to be risk-averse.

 

[The Eagle]

Hi,

This board had the chance and the ability to turn the steering 180*---but those in power positions at Paf had no concept of strategy / gamesmanship / tactical procurement.

These same superstars till yesterday were bragging about all combat to be WVR---how could they understand the intricacies of the combat at BVR---.

You had to be knowledgeable about BVR combat in the 90's---if you had read books---these SUPPOSED WORKS OF FICTION in the 90's---they were open about where air warfare technology and weapons were headed. These books were WORKS OF FICTION in NAME ONLY----they laid out the actual coming capabilities of the u s air force out in the open for everyone to read and know.

It was so BLATANTLY OPEN material that majority took it for PURE FICTION---which it was not and never was---. The talk in the books was of real stuff in the field operation---but as it was not in the field at that time---it was considered to be fake.

On this very board some 10 years ago and on pakdef dot org I wrote some 12 years ago---that the U S has moved away from wvr combat---and the pilots are being trained more for BVR engagements---to launch the BVR missiles and then break away for the reason that a superior BVR missile and a superior EW suite will create air superiority in the theater---.

And I was lambasted for that by everyone----now you kids and adults are going to be smashed real time---.

When you go WVR---you lose all your superiority and the margin is 50 / 50---.

Now don't expect that your paf general would also be knowledgeable of these changes---remember---what your generals were saying in the first gulf war---they were illiterate then and not much has changed---.

This place---this very board---you the literate ones---you had the chance to make the difference---break the chains---but you kids acted like the worst enemies of pakistan---thru your poor decision making---thru a lack of understanding---due to lack of listening---you guys did not do anything different than what was being done in pakistan.

Now that you guys are being cornered---and going thru slow strangulation---and some of those on the periphrey are begining to see the noose being tightened have begun to realize about the folly that the paf made.

My screams of pain---you have been hearing for the last 10 years---now it is your turn---your sceams of pain are just begining to register----you will be screaming louder---it is all a matter of time now.

A problem is never solved by killing the messenger----it is just the begining of more problems to come.


Any naysayers on this board----just pick the books by Dale Brown and start reading from the first book till the one in the mid 2005----. There many other writers like him that have laid it out things not beyond imagination for the time they were written in.

All the tactical stuff he wrote about the air force / air combat has come true so far.

There was a very interesting read I had in one of his books---it had the picture of a B1 bomber on it I think---he writes about EW aircraft that would have super computer in it that could access into the brain of the incoming bvr missiles thru data link---break the code---reprogram the code and turn the missile against the enemy---truth or fiction--

Salam Janab,

It has been a while interacted with you. Hope you are doing well.

Muhtaram, there is no doubt about your love for Pakistan and it's military or atleast I would say who am I to judge.

We are humans and make mistakes but I am sure, the high-up never sold the mother for it. There was corruption and my post was in the same contexts to @Oscar Sir.

For a while, newly grown would be inspired like we are doomed if read it all or here atleast without any other source of knowledge. Yes, we do have people/lovers that wouldn't bear a single word against the force but on other hand critics are breaking the roof, making an extra hype. The things are, how the voices can be heard and new implementation can be done.

We lacked in tech but there were unavoidable circumstances, the circumstances that includes the cancer like corruption as well. Accountability is needed indeed but saying that strategies are not up-to the mark or as per whatever available, that's not fair. We are not economically strong like the rivals nor can spend that much so we will be looking for a solution with few numbers of Western/expensive and more of inexpensive but effective weapons.

Entry in Yemen theater was more of attached to D.C Go as well. We have to keep in mind that we are not totally independent by the economy and still to bear with US if she has a say in anything. Until & unless, we are totally independent of our economy, that's not possible that we can afford any further hidden sanctions though Yemen's decision was taken after considering the many factors including the concern of our friend. We cannot stretch that much as much as people want us to do so and also, IMO let the Kings learn a lesson for a while that nobody is pawn against the money alone here and what if it is going to be more than the earlier little benefits.

The new lot is more concerned about our needs and requirements based upon the sources available and trust me, it is turning to a change and adopting a new way/strategy however may need time as it's been a long time and merely rectified. There could be few hurdles due to an Iron rod in the neck but not for long.

My supposition was to have a civilian screen installed to show different picture as well that few cannot do due to unavoidable circumstances but it shouldn't be like providing an opportunity for bashing that few take it for granted merely to serve their own ego and are not well-wishers at all.

RS wasn't visiting D.C for self praise but the tour consist of many agendas wherein cross border infiltration, foreign involvement in terrorism and clarifying the picture that was badly painted by our Civilian Government. The same visit also conveyed a message that seems like we will be happy being apart. US knew our diverting strategy that would give us a bit of edge over sanctions pron and string attached weapons of US.

PAF is late but not that much and I would say let the Rafale be done and we will be seeing a much improved strategy from our end. Also, we do not advertise the things for support stunt but we have limitations due to small pocket and corruption therein as well.

 

[Qabza Group]

Sir, I am assuming that it is plausible that you may have enough information on the R-77 standard and that SD-10 somehow has the advantages in performance over it as you had mentioned ... but shouldn't RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M have significantly better characteristics than the R-77 standard and also quite understandably be better than SD-10? Otherwise what's the point in having just additional kinematic range?
Your response would help me clear my mind on the topic.

RVV-AE is the same thing as R-77.

As per my knowledge the mods in R-77-1 are majorly of its SIZE, Which includes its length and hence more Fuel in it. Which clearly effects MOTOR BURN OUT time (ref my previous post). The more motor burn out time will give it more range but it doesn't effect avionics suite of the missile.

As per Mods in K-77M are corcerned, Yes apart from further improvements in design and range, The radar would include AESA seeker instead of previous pulse doppler one which may be a positive thing for Adder operators. But this thing hasn't been operationalized yet so its effectiveness coupled with Super Zhuk cannot be ascertained. The Adders presently in service have the performances as i have described in my previous posts. (Atleast in Indo-Pak scenerios)

As far as ARH BVRs are concerned, one thing must be kept in mind that they are by-design manufactured to take initial guidance from the aircraft. Its in their betterment i would say. Because like in multi-aircrafts scenerio, the AI of shooting aircraft may be locked to one target while the active BVR may get on to another one if it doesn't take intitial guidance from aircraft.
If you read the guidance of all active missiles it is in three stages, like in case of R-77 it is written " Inertial with mid-course update and terminal Active Radar Homing" Which means that as soon as it is launched, it takes inertial guidance along with mid course update from the AI of the aircraft and in TERMINAL stage the Radar goes active. So it is for the safety of the launching aircraft that its missile's radar should go active early.

 

[MastanKhan]

The theatre of Aerial battle in Subcontinent is just the Indo-Pak scenerio, In which one country has got russian based AA-12 and the other one has got AIM-120C + SD-10. The Cost effectiveness of all these projects do come into the account.
While your concerns are right, it may also be considered that:-
- A force has not only to procure a specific equipment, it has to get its spares support for a quite long period of time. The cost of spares do increase with aging. The effectiveness of weapon may be questioned after 5 years but then the force can not decommission it after 5 years. So the AGREEMENT COST includes all this. If PAF was going to procure one US weapon that too of a good caliber with Spares support, then Going for a cheaper but even efficient weapon in shape of SD-10 is not a bad planning. Even SD-10 being a superior choice than what Adversary has got as best (AA-12).

- The Air force has not only to procure Aireal Firing weapons but it has to look for a viable option of Airdefence equipment for earlywarning, SAMs, Even EW suits as you mentioned, ASV/ASW weapons thus this is a whole PACKAGE which an Airforce has to keep in mind. Which has got ECONOMICAL IMPLICATIONS. In a country where each individual always points out the defence budget, going for high priced equipment is a much difficult task.

- There is nothing better than producing own equipment jointly with full technology transfer. If one keeps on buying things from other countries, it msy not ever be able to produce its own. Who knows in future PAF may start to produce good AAMs after mastering this Aircraft manufacturing.



R-77 (standard), RVV-AE, R-77-1 and K-77M

Hi,

Agreed on most parts----but this was for short and mid term planning---. The long term planning somehow escaped the discussion---and that is where it was vital to have the French on your side.

Economics and cost savings are important---but not ultimate---. You can overcome the costs by reducing the numbers in the initial stages. The ultimate goal is to have a viable alliance and a superior system.

We already know that our relationship with the U S was cyclic---and that was when india was not working hard to get the U S on its side---. But this time around---things changed drastically---india has chosen the alliance of the U S over russia---and this was clearly visible after 9/11---which meant that pakistan had its days numbered with the U S---.

In that scenario---to let go off france was a strategic and technical disaster---. We already knew that we are going to lose one of our tier one weapons supplier---if someone did not believe in it---he needs to be " ---- "---.

As for producing our own AA missiles---we could---under given condition could only muster up a Tier 3 or a Tier 2 missile---but not a Tier 1 AA missile either in the short---medium or long range---and that is due to the limitations in technology available.

I give a lots of praise to @Bilal Khan 777 for opening up this DARING topic for discussion---the shock of its implications would have popped the eyes of many a pakistanis out---those pakistanis who were living in their dream world filled with illusions.

 

[araz]

BilalKhan 777.
Thank you very much for a very interesting thread. It is a far cry from our usual we are better than you thread. The topic is also fairly technical and as it happens @Qabza Group has helped out by providing a lot of knowledge on the subject. Exploring the topic further, we have BVRs from US and China. The US ones we dont talk about much and I think we are all in agreement that so far they are the best in the arena. As to the Chinese ones we all accept that :
A) They are adequate for use as of today
B) They may need upgrading or replacing for future use.
Our choices remain limited as the French will not play ball with us, The UK and its cronies are too complicated and difficult to procure from, and US is now unreliable. That leaves us exploring other options.
Turkey as you suggested may form a good source of future procurements however their offerings at the moment are in development.
South African offerings are limited or nonexistent as their R&D appears to have shut down due to lack of resources.
Italy is a possibility but recent dealings from what I have heard have been marred with shouts of corruption so whether they have anything of substance remains to be seen.
Other providers like Brazil are not far enough in their development cycles to be reliable providers.
We also do not know to what extent the Chinese weaponry will develop and mature. You are assuming that it might not be as rosy as it seems. The ycertainly have the money so what are the stumbling blocks? So a few questions for you to answer here.
Please also let us know what your own thoughts are.
Regards
A

 

[Tipu7]

@Qabza Group @Bilal Khan 777
Fellas,
How you guys will relate upcoming Meteor in IAF arsenal and options we got to attain missile of similar generation?
How capable do you people think SA Marlin or Chinese export version of Pl12 will be for Jf17 point of view?

 

[ziaulislam]

To get into AAM manufacturing Pakistan would need to access vendors willing to release incredibly valuable propulsion and guidance technologies. For what it's worth, Denel Dynamics is willing to release at least some of that expertise in exchange for a co-funding partner to help with the Marlin. Unfortunately, this would be a risky venture as the technology in question - including coveted dual-pulse propulsion - is in the development and demonstrator phase. Riskiness isn't inherently bad, but when funding is tight all around, the decision-makers will have a higher incentive to be risk-averse.

there is no R&D without risk, otherwise its a ready made item off the shelf..
i long considered pakistan not getting involved in AAM and SAM derived from an AAM as strategic error
we need a standarad SAM and medium range cruise missles(unlike the nuclear RAAD restricted to mirages)

 

[majid mehmood]

i dont think so it will have a long term future
bcz pl 15 will almost take over by 2025

 

[Blue Marlin]

BilalKhan 777.
Thank you very much for a very interesting thread. It is a far cry from our usual we are better than you thread. The topic is also fairly technical and as it happens @Qabza Group has helped out by providing a lot of knowledge on the subject. Exploring the topic further, we have BVRs from US and China. The US ones we dont talk about much and I think we are all in agreement that so far they are the best in the arena. As to the Chinese ones we all accept that :
A) They are adequate for use as of today
B) They may need upgrading or replacing for future use.
Our choices remain limited as the French will not play ball with us, The UK and its cronies are too complicated and difficult to procure from, and US is now unreliable. That leaves us exploring other options.
Turkey as you suggested may form a good source of future procurements however their offerings at the moment are in development.
South African offerings are limited or nonexistent as their R&D appears to have shut down due to lack of resources.
Italy is a possibility but recent dealings from what I have heard have been marred with shouts of corruption so whether they have anything of substance remains to be seen.
Other providers like Brazil are not far enough in their development cycles to be reliable providers.
We also do not know to what extent the Chinese weaponry will develop and mature. You are assuming that it might not be as rosy as it seems. The ycertainly have the money so what are the stumbling blocks? So a few questions for you to answer here.
Please also let us know what your own thoughts are.
Regards
A

nonsense. our relations with Pakistan are good and stable
heck shes even planning on going to pakistan
https://www.geo.tv/latest/110155-Pakistan-is-our-dependable-ally-Theresa-May-tells-Sharif

she met your pm at the un recently too
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakistan/pm-nawaz-meets-british-counterpart-theresa-may-in-new-york/

the meteor is a very expensive missile. a £2million each you can buy multiple sd-10's
and 2 aim-120d for a smudge over $1 million.
so yeah its very expensive.
but can pakistan fire such a missile at targets 200+km? no
the f16 is a closed sources system and the 18 f18blk 52 have the aim-120c5's anyway
the jf-17 does not have a powerful radar and the block 3 nowhere near in sight till after 2017.
so what else does pakistan have? nothing
the stop gap aircraft are just a myth .the the 5th gen birds are only on paper and very likely chinese as the turks are pushing back the tfx to mid-late 2020's
do note we (the uk) are lead developers in the missile, we have a 39% stake in the missile. which is higher then the next two highest stake holders combined.
i get quiet annoyed when people say oh the uk can be trusted bla bla bla. end of the day its business if we mess up on business then we will lose alot more business. so why mess up in the first place?
heck you want the typhoon? easy all you gotta do is spec it out and pay for it and negotiations on the transfer of tech under the new pakistani procurement policy and there you have it. a bird that will run rings around the rafale.
end of the day if you want it you have to pay for it.

 

[araz]

nonsense. our relations with Pakistan are good and stable
heck shes even planning on going to pakistan
https://www.geo.tv/latest/110155-Pakistan-is-our-dependable-ally-Theresa-May-tells-Sharif

she met your pm at the un recently too
https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakistan/pm-nawaz-meets-british-counterpart-theresa-may-in-new-york/

the meteor is a very expensive missile. a £2million each you can buy multiple sd-10's
and 2 aim-120d for a smudge over $1 million.
so yeah its very expensive.
but can pakistan fire such a missile at targets 200+km? no
the f16 is a closed sources system and the 18 f18blk 52 have the aim-120c5's anyway
the jf-17 does not have a powerful radar and the block 3 nowhere near in sight till after 2017.
so what else does pakistan have? nothing
the stop gap aircraft are just a myth .the the 5th gen birds are only on paper and very likely chinese as the turks are pushing back the tfx to mid-late 2020's
do note we (the uk) are lead developers in the missile, we have a 39% stake in the missile. which is higher then the next two highest stake holders combined.
i get quiet annoyed when people say oh the uk can be trusted bla bla bla. end of the day its business if we mess up on business then we will lose alot more business. so why mess up in the first place?
heck you want the typhoon? easy all you gotta do is spec it out and pay for it and negotiations on the transfer of tech under the new pakistani procurement policy and there you have it. a bird that will run rings around the rafale.
end of the day if you want it you have to pay for it.

I have tolerated your nonsense long enough. The next time you let go of civility I will make sure your arse is hauled out of this forum to give you some cooling time.I dont have any problem with people disagreeing with posts that I have made, but just like I keep it civil unless provoked, I would expect others to do so. So let it be understood clearly.
Now the reason for problems procuring from the British have been various. Due to £/Rs exchange British products remain expensive plus your labour costs have been high. Secondly buying form the British will put you in the same boat as buying from the US as their policies and manner of dealing tend to be similar and UK hhas traditionally followed the US cues.
Thirdly, I think you will have to take permission from multiple vendors to provide to pakistan. If this is the case then there will be complications with that as well as generally the EU has been too busy trying to please the Indians.
This is the reason for me writing what I wrote. Now if you can respond civilly then do so otherwise dont bother!
A

 

[Blue Marlin]

I have tolerated your nonsense long enough. The next time you let go of civility I will make sure your arse is hauled out of this forum to give you some cooling time.I dont have any problem with people disagreeing with posts that I have made, but just like I keep it civil unless provoked, I would expect others to do so. So let it be understood clearly.
Now the reason for problems procuring from the British have been various. Due to £/Rs exchange British products remain expensive plus your labour costs have been high. Secondly buying form the British will put you in the same boat as buying from the US as their policies and manner of dealing tend to be similar and UK hhas traditionally followed the US cues.
Thirdly, I think you will have to take permission from multiple vendors to provide to pakistan. If this is the case then there will be complications with that as well as generally the EU has been too busy trying to please the Indians.
This is the reason for me writing what I wrote. Now if you can respond civilly then do so otherwise dont bother!
A

really provoked. your the one going on about the uk wont sell you the meteor. its the world minus china versus pakistan.
come one. really ?
ok so its not we wont sell it to you it that its expensive, i stressed that in my first post.

so your third point being india. the meteor is only on the rafale for india,which has a one way data link which was designed for the mica missile.
also aquiring permission from vendors wont be a problem
the entire eu is not pleasing india its only specific countries such as france, sweden. countries such as italy, spain germany and eastern european countries dont care as they have gained nothing.
im saying if you want it you can have it. but is pakistan going to buy it? no they would wait probably wait for hiliary to give you the aim-120d or go chinese or possibly south africain