From pk-15 , JF-17 Thunder and Al Khalid to fifth generation stealth fighter jet project Azm

[DJ_Viper]

According to international defense observers, Pakistan’s defense production from PK-15 assault rifles to Al-Khalid tanks and JF-17 Thunder is rapidly moving towards its self - sufficiency. In a short span of 12 years, the successful journey of JF-17 Thunder Block 3 from the launch of China’s joint warplane manufacturing program to its completion in Pakistan is a surprise to the world and awe to the enemies.

The JF-17 Thunder is talking parrots in combat aerial demonstrations around the world. Demand for Pakistan Thunder aircraft is increasing in developing countries like Malaysia, Burma and Nigeria. While the failed result of India’s 30 years of failed planning, the Tejas aircraft has become a rejected and flop product in the world market.

These things sound great. But equally important focus and one of the highest priority needs to be given to counter defense systems, such as long range SAMs, BVR missiles and more than anything, to protect military assets, C-RAM systems.

 

[mudas777]

Even Tejas MK1A will feature an AESA radar and other equipment, Tejas MK1A will be better than JF-17 Block-3.

PL-15 is not given to PAF yet, but our own SFDR BVR missile will have a 400km range thanks to its Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet technology (SFDR).

Plus we have meteor

Our Tejas has critical tech like OBOGS made in India which currently all chinese aircrafts lack except the original Russian ones.
F-16 have OBOGS but rest of PAF fleet doesn’t have OBOGS whereas only MiG-21 in IAF doesn’t have OBOGS and MiG-29 got one after UPG upgrade.

Rafale’s Spectra EW suite is unmatchable brother.

Mate what ever Chinese junk we are buying may not be able to cross the LOC so you should be glad and feel safe just remember to wear mask in case some one finds you floating in the Ganges. OBOGS and AESA equipped Tejas is a force to reckoned with no wonder PAF pilots were so scared they were offering Indian pilot tea after tea to get into his good books.
You have managed to find the room for the SFDR BVR missile but still i don't see any toilet seats installed when they see JF 17, does brave Indians pilots have to put plane on the auto pilot and get out of the plane and sit on the wings to do the business? No wonder poor Abi just fell off the wing and got captured, poor soul didn't even knew which side of the border he was, please do something for the Indian pilots dignity too.

 

[DJ_Viper]

I wish you a good luck !
The two planes are not oxing in the same league. One is a light and mainly a point defense fighter and the other a medium with long range fighter.
Rafale will evolve also. F4 is in the pipe and F5 already in R&D phase. Rafale may have a tile, 270° coverage GaN radar when JF17 will only have a first gen AESA 120° radar.

No, the Pak answer request another beast.

Engine will always be a problem. And so probably radar.
You will have to be dependant on China for this.
Turkey has the same problem : no engine for its TFX (F110 for prototyp, but what alse for serial product?)

Some of your arguments are valid and some are very off. For example, yes, it's obvious that Rafale is a medium class aircraft while the JFT is light weight. However, the JFT isn't a "point defense" fighter. With it's payload limitations, it's still a very potent multi-role platform. If it had 9-11 hardpoints (medium class), it would do wonders with more thrust.

It's airframe and avionics aren't much distant from the Viper's and I believe the Viper was the design model in mind for the JFT. Additionally, the avionics were improved for anti-ship capability and two long range anti-ship missiles is great payload.

The use case it was built for, was India in mind. For that use case, it offers tremendous amounts of capability similar to the Rafale in terms of AESA, advance BVR missiles, etc. It is however inferior in EW compared to Rafale and in a merge, the Rafale like the Mirage 2000, will have a clear edge, especially if the fight turns out to be a one turn fight. However, with HOBS and advance F&F BVR missiles, the kill will be decided in 80%+ cases a few miles away.

Lastly, the Chinese AESA in the next 3 years will be on par or ahead of Europe's tech. The Chinese military industrial complex have become the second after the US in terms of innovation. I'd put them ahead of Europe at this time. The pace and speed at which the latest tech is rolling out of China, is faster than Russia + Europe + UK combined, second to the USA at this point and thus the QUAD was put into existence.

 

[KaiserX]

Some of your arguments are valid and some are very off. For example, yes, it's obvious that Rafale is a medium class aircraft while the JFT is light weight. However, the JFT isn't a "point defense" fighter. With it's payload limitations, it's still a very potent multi-role platform. If it had 9-11 hardpoints (medium class), it would do wonders with more thrust.

It's airframe and avionics aren't much distant from the Viper's and I believe the Viper was the design model in mind for the JFT. Additionally, the avionics were improved for anti-ship capability and two long range anti-ship missiles is great payload.

The use case it was built for, was India in mind. For that use case, it offers tremendous amounts of capability similar to the Rafale in terms of AESA, advance BVR missiles, etc. It is however inferior in EW compared to Rafale and in a merge, the Rafale like the Mirage 2000, will have a clear edge, especially if the fight turns out to be a one turn fight. However, with HOBS and advance F&F BVR missiles, the kill will be decided in 80%+ cases a few miles away.

Lastly, the Chinese AESA in the next 3 years will be on par or ahead of Europe's tech. The Chinese military industrial complex have become the second after the US in terms of innovation. I'd put them ahead of Europe at this time. The pace and speed at which the latest tech is rolling out of China, is faster than Russia + Europe + UK combined, second to the USA at this point and thus the QUAD was put into existence.

How much payload does a fighter realistically need at the end of the day?

It is extremely rare to see fighter jets with more than 3000+ KG of payloads. Only the USAF/ RUAF/PLAAF are capable of equipping bombers with payloads upto 8000kg and beyond but even those are very rare and are just showcases in modern warfare.

60 years ago you may need 100,000 kg to get the job done due to inaccuraccy
20 years ago you may need 1000 kg to get the job done
Todays guidance systems are so refined you could get the job done with 100kg weapon

 

[DJ_Viper]

How much payload does a fighter realistically need at the end of the day?

It is extremely rare to see fighter jets with more than 3000+ KG of payloads. Only the USAF/ RUAF/PLAAF are capable of equipping bombers with payloads upto 8000kg and beyond but even those are very rare and are just showcases in modern warfare.

60 years ago you may need 100,000 kg to get the job done due to inaccuraccy
20 years ago you may need 1000 kg to get the job done
Todays guidance systems are so refined you could get the job done with 100kg weapon

5+ ton is normal with 9-11 hardpoints. JFT is lighter with a reduced performance engine compared to the fighters it's trying to compete against like the Gripen, etc. If, like originally thought it to be a replacement for Mig-21 and Mirage 3-5's in the world (thousands retiring), then that's a different story. But with the JFT block III, it has certainly risen above that mark to directly competing against 4th gen single engine jets. For that, it does need more thrust to weight ratio, more hardpoints and about a ton more weapons carrying capacity at the least. I'd think with the Chinese engines coming available, the issue of higher thrust might get resolved along and more hardpoints might be added to the later blocks (or MERS, as clearly seen in one of the recent images on twitter, not sure if it was real).

 

[khansaheeb]

Keep the good work going.
But still we need to come up with some equivalent fighter to tackle Rafael fighter.
All our expectations are from JF-Block-3 which still due to roll out.

We need air supremacy whatever the cost. Block 3 is the right step in the right direction. We need to focus on skills development and world class education and training.

 

[BON PLAN]

Some of your arguments are valid and some are very off. For example, yes, it's obvious that Rafale is a medium class aircraft while the JFT is light weight. However, the JFT isn't a "point defense" fighter. With it's payload limitations, it's still a very potent multi-role platform. If it had 9-11 hardpoints (medium class), it would do wonders with more thrust.

It's airframe and avionics aren't much distant from the Viper's and I believe the Viper was the design model in mind for the JFT. Additionally, the avionics were improved for anti-ship capability and two long range anti-ship missiles is great payload.

The use case it was built for, was India in mind. For that use case, it offers tremendous amounts of capability similar to the Rafale in terms of AESA, advance BVR missiles, etc. It is however inferior in EW compared to Rafale and in a merge, the Rafale like the Mirage 2000, will have a clear edge, especially if the fight turns out to be a one turn fight. However, with HOBS and advance F&F BVR missiles, the kill will be decided in 80%+ cases a few miles away.

Lastly, the Chinese AESA in the next 3 years will be on par or ahead of Europe's tech. The Chinese military industrial complex have become the second after the US in terms of innovation. I'd put them ahead of Europe at this time. The pace and speed at which the latest tech is rolling out of China, is faster than Russia + Europe + UK combined, second to the USA at this point and thus the QUAD was put into existence.

JF17 is more an answer to Mirage 2000.
9 or 11 hardpoints is useless if your bird is not powered enough.
It is interessant to see that JF17 is not used by China ! Strange if it was studied as an answer to IAF, no?
And to end, there is no proof of the efficiency of the chinese weapons. Are they good or are they suck? that is the big question.

How much payload does a fighter realistically need at the end of the day?

It is extremely rare to see fighter jets with more than 3000+ KG of payloads. Only the USAF/ RUAF/PLAAF are capable of equipping bombers with payloads upto 8000kg and beyond but even those are very rare and are just showcases in modern warfare.

60 years ago you may need 100,000 kg to get the job done due to inaccuraccy
20 years ago you may need 1000 kg to get the job done
Todays guidance systems are so refined you could get the job done with 100kg weapon

It's true, but the load can be changed in fuel, to deliver these 100 or 1000 kg far longer, or with a greater persistence on the theater..

 

[Tornado23]

JF17 is more an answer to Mirage 2000.
9 or 11 hardpoints is useless if your bird is not powered enough.
It is interessant to see that JF17 is not used by China ! Strange if it was studied as an answer to IAF, no?

Oh my goodness another 'china doesnt use the jf17' crap. Jf17 was jointly built FOR Pakistan. Not china.

Plus its an export vehicle. Like the MBT 3000 and VT4. They wont be used because they are for export

 

[The Eagle]

It is interessant to see that JF17 is not used by China ! Strange if it was studied as an answer to IAF, no?

It will be more interesting if you pay some attention and go back to FC-1 history along with not required for PLAAF. The subject has been discussed to death not once but more times. PLAAF has solutions answer for IAF or any other enemy.

 

[Beast]

JF17 is more an answer to Mirage 2000.
9 or 11 hardpoints is useless if your bird is not powered enough.
It is interessant to see that JF17 is not used by China ! Strange if it was studied as an answer to IAF, no?
And to end, there is no proof of the efficiency of the chinese weapons. Are they good or are they suck? that is the big question.

It's true, but the load can be changed in fuel, to deliver these 100 or 1000 kg far longer, or with a greater persistence on the theater..

Chinese weapon from missile to drone has work exactly according what is stated from lraq anti ISIS ops to Libya civil war. If China can land a working rover on Mars which even the EU and Russian struggle. I don't think there is anything u can doubt about the progress of Chinese technology.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

It is interessant to see that JF17 is not used by China

Oh same crap again, PLAAF has different doctrine than PAF, PLAAF needs Bigger jets with more payloads/electronics to cover vast swath of China, that's why PLAAF not inducted JFT

 

[BON PLAN]

Oh same crap again, PLAAF has different doctrine than PAF, PLAAF needs Bigger jets with more payloads/electronics to cover vast swath of China, that's why PLAAF not inducted JFT

OK. But read some posts before, when some tried to explain JF17 can be on par with Rafale. It is definitively not.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

OK. But read some posts before, when some tried to explain JF17 can be on par with Rafale. It is definitively not.

No, i am not saying that even block3 is far far behind from RAFALE, but its about tactics/strategies against RAFALE, you false flagged Indian

 

[batmannow]

Brother no doubt JF-17 Block-3 is a 4.5 gen aircraft but Rafale’s spectra is unbeatable. obviously Block-3 is better than Block-2.

Pls don’t bring 27th February in discussions, bring events in which all things are proven to have happened.

Su-30 MKI was not engaged in the dogfight, so that’s why it never fired anything, the MiGs were sent to intercept As PAF jets didn’t come deep inside they mostly remained inside Pak administered kashmir.

HMD is deadly for Close range dogfights and useless for BVR dogfight.

Rafale is better than Block-3 in all terms plus Pakistan doesn’t have PL-15 nor any contract or deal is signed for any, when it will have then say PL-15 in JF-15 but right now the Meteor missiles in our Rafales are ready.

Tejas MK1 - 40 units ordered
Tejas MK2 - 83 units deal to be signed in December
Tejas SPORT - 100 to be bought
Tejas MWF - 200 Units committed by IAF
Tejas ORCA - Under development.

just because Navy rejected it as their requirement was for a twin engine medium weight fighter doesn’t mean its a failure, because of that HAL is making a Tejas variant according to Navy’s requirements called TEDBF, Naval LCA is more of a Tech demonstrator.

Sir JF-17 is not a home made fighter, its a chinese aircraft manufactured by pakistan, in China it is called FC-1 Xiolong.

There was a time when IAF didn’t like it in 2012-13 but they have achieved FOC with Final upgrades and changes and fit in its requirements, its not that IAF forcefully flies it, US Airforce chief called it a wonderful aircraft, Russian pilots called it excellent and wanted it to dogfight with the Russian Flankers, French Airforce chief called it a great aircraft.

plus Tejas is better than JF-17, wikipedia comparison wise and internals equipment wise also.

if you genuinely compare then you’ll get your answer Sir.

For how long you’ll keep on spamming the same thing, TeJaS ReJeCtEd bY IaF.
By the same logic why did you make Block-2 and 3? Does that mean Block-1 does not fill Airforce’s requirements and you forcefully inducted it?
and what’s wrong in demanding modification and changes, I mean are you serious?

you obviously modify and upgrade aircraft to meet requirements and then operationalise it, what’s the big deal or so surprising?

Block-3 is better than Tejas MK1 but will lose its edge to Tejas MK1A in terms of generation.

Tejas MK1 is comparable to JF-17 Block-2 And is better than the Block-2 if you check the internals.

All aircrafts don’t necessarily are 100% indigenous and initial versions have many foreign equipment and then indigenous content is increased over time with new models but 3 blocks of thunders passed, I never saw a single pakistani component in the thunders. Bro then how is it a pakistani jet? You’ll need china’s permission to do changes on it as it is made under a joint venture.

Why is still so many to bes........ In your plans about TEJAS?
even after 40 dam years still it's to be???? Why?
While we are on JF blk 4 now and I can gruntee you it's not Tobe at all!
Blk 4 will be modeled on F16s XL models and expected to have all capabilities of so called F21 with twin engines.
While India is stuck on its TOBE s on all of its decade old projects?

 

[Trango Towers]

Why is still so many to bes........ In your plans about TEJAS?
even after 40 dam years still it's to be???? Why?
While we are on JF blk 4 now and I can gruntee you it's not Tobe at all!
Blk 4 will be modeled on F16s XL models and expected to have all capabilities of so called F21 with twin engines.
While India is stuck on its TOBE s on all of its decade old projects?

Loooool now you have designt it into an f16xl loooooo ...come on please.