France To Challenge US F-35 Fighters’ Dominance With Stealthier & Hypersonic Missile-Enabled ‘Super Rafale’

[BON PLAN]

Aviation Industry is not only Engine technology

Russia and China have everything from many types of Fighter Jets to Strategic Bombers ,
from AWACS to Strategic Transport Aircraft
from SIGINT/ELINT Aircraft to Air refueling Tanker
from heavy utility Helicopter to Attack Helicopter

You are right, but engine (and radar) are the core. No engine = no independance.
China industry remains mainly a copy and paste one.
J10 = inspired by Lavi.
J20 = strange bird. A stop gap for me, not more.
J31 is the first and only really impressive bird for me so far.

 

[serenity]

Italy doesnt have Engine technology

1 USA
2 Russia
3 China

4 France
5 The UK

I think rank for military turbofan would be:

1. US
2. UK

3. China, France
4. Russia

5. Japan, Germany, Turkey

6. South Korea

7. Italy
8. India

9. Iran

Rank for civilian turbofan:

1. US
2. UK
3. France



4. Russia
5. China


6. Germany

Indeed France has not made a turbofan since M88 which itself while high technology of nearly F119, EJ-200 level, is now no longer the leading edge. Until they introduce their next generation engine of 5th generation military turbofan or above, it is as it is ranked. I put China in same level as WS-15 program 2 has reached F119 level at the least while most experts agree it isn't F135 level. M88 is at that level roughyly in overall materials and thermo efficiency technology BUT M88 is mid thrust ... not even WS-10 or F110 level high thrust. France got to that (EJ200 F119) tech level 20 years ahead of China but with a mid thrust (lower strain) level engine, two steps below WS-15/F135 level thrust.

Russia is too lagging on resources and has not yet managed to put Program 30 into service in even batch (for engine production rates) production level.

You are right, but engine (and radar) are the core. No engine = no independance.
China industry remains mainly a copy and paste one.
J10 = inspired by Lavi.
J20 = strange bird. A stop gap for me, not more.
J31 is the first and only really impressive bird for me so far.

J-20 is much more aerodynamically and overall more capable than J-31. Anyway your ideas on China's stuff is honestly quite a bit outdated and it is impossible to show or convince so let opinions be.

J-31 is much less impressive than J-20. Can't carry as many larger weapons and electronics. Mid thrust engines, not even F110 or WS-10C level thrust = can't produce as much power for APU and electronics. Aerodynamically J-31 is fair but J-20's configuration is better for flight performance with slight sacrifrice for stealth. Still the J-31, F-35, TFX, KFX, AMCA, F-22 are all "that" design of Lockheed Martin. Even Su-57 is close basically a Lockheed Martined Flanker. Stealthy shaping in that generation converges toward that design.

Also it is impossible to copy paste engines or high technology. This is not a year 9 assignment. It's possible to learn and adapt, reverse engineer, understand, replicate, refine and so on but to call it all as copy paste is not understanding even the real "copying" process. Suffice to say, no country outside the western ones and a few asian ones have managed to successfully "copy" modern technology. If it were simply copy paste, everyone from Sudan to Chile would have fighters, satellites, Mars rovers, quantum computers and so on.

I think you are confusing it with copying the external design of consumer products. In which case, everyone does it from time to time... including western brands copying each other and so on... countless cases throuhout history. The usual reason for this from some Alibaba shop to Microsoft to Samsung is to sell more and have their product look like one that is desirable. Nothing to do with ability, engineering, or industrial capability of a country.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are right, but engine (and radar) are the core. No engine = no independance.
China industry remains mainly a copy and paste one.
J10 = inspired by Lavi.
J20 = strange bird. A stop gap for me, not more.
J31 is the first and only really impressive bird for me so far.

Hi,

EW package and the weapons are the core---.

If these 2 are extremely superior---then by default---the engine will be capable as well.

If an EW suite can detect and a missile can lock---what is the engine going to do---? Not much---.

 

[waz]

France behind GB? you are pulling our leg Bro !
Your latest jet, built with 3 other european country, is a technical and export failure.
France Alone sell more M2000 than Tornado and more Rafale (it's even not the end) than EF2000.
About radar : we are ahead than you at least 15 years (AESA).
So....

Nah bro get your facts right! The plane was a British design, the engine a variant of a British engine etc.
The Typhoon is so much more powerful in an air superiority role than your raf.
AESA, you are 15 years ahead? According to you I guess.....

 

[BON PLAN]

I think rank for military turbofan would be:

1. US
2. UK

What is the latest military engine 100% studied and built by GB ? I think it is the Spey, a 60's engine.
Since they were all made with other europeans country.

M88 is far younger, 100% french, was at his time the engine with the higher core temperature (1850°K).

So UK is no more the 2nd in the world in term of military engine. I don't know if France is second, but france is probably at least on par with GB.

Hi,

EW package and the weapons are the core---.

If these 2 are extremely superior---then by default---the engine will be capable as well.

If an EW suite can detect and a missile can lock---what is the engine going to do---? Not much---.

No engine = no weapon and radar and electronic measures in the sky !
See Italy : they are able to built nice radars, nice weapons, nice electronic counter measures systems, but don't have the industrial and R&D bases to built their own engine.

Rank for civilian turbofan:

1. US
2. UK
3. France

I agree.

 

[BON PLAN]

J-20 is much more aerodynamically and overall more capable than J-31.

No.
And we even don't know what is the real usage of J-20. It's only partially a air dominance fighter. It seems to be made to destroy at long range the USAF tankers and awacs.
In a air combat against a F22 i give it zero chance.

J-31 is for me THE real F-35 : a medium VLO jet, with 2 engines for survivability and without a VTOL variant that impose too many compromises.

 

[Faceless]

What is the latest military engine 100% studied and built by GB ? I think it is the Spey, a 60's engine.
Since they were all made with other europeans country.

M88 is far younger, 100% french, was at his time the engine with the higher core temperature (1850°K).

So UK is no more the 2nd in the world in term of military engine. I don't know if France is second, but france is probably at least on par with GB.


No engine = no weapon and radar and electronic measures in the sky !
See Italy : they are able to built nice radars, nice weapons, nice electronic counter measures systems, but don't have the industrial and R&D bases to built their own engine.

UK has far greater access to American technologies and it's companies like RR have deeper defence cooperation with American Giants Like GE and P&W than France.

RR is the second biggest manufacturer of aero engines after GE, infact even French/German Airbus uses British engines instead of French ones and they did not assume that position by being technologically inferior to Safran.

Engine testing underway for new British ‘Tempest’ fighter jet

The image shows the Rolls-Royce Tempest engine 'TDV3/1' undergoing intake Integration testing in the TP141 testbed in Filton, Bristol

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

RR is working on a brand new engine for the Tempest program, what is Safran doing.
So to say Rolls Royce is somehow behind Safran would be wrong.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nah bro get your facts right! The plane was a British design, the engine a variant of a British engine etc.
The Typhoon is so much more powerful in an air superiority role than your raf.
AESA, you are 15 years ahead? According to you I guess.....

The plane design : it's a mix of GB and german TFX studies.
engine used the XG40 study, but not only. It is built by 4 country.
EJ200 is only marginally better than SNECMA M53 of Mirage 2000. Same overall design, lighter because younger AND because used in a twin config.

EF2000 much more powerfull in air superiority? So powerfull that it's interbatianl career is now nearly over.

It is so potent that RAF decided 10 years ago not to train against Rafale because EF2000 asses were kicked too often (it's a true information).

AESA : serially used on Rafale since 2013, and with all the PESA softwares (and some others), ie it was mature from the beginning. What about the EF2000 AESA ?

UK has far greater access to American technologies and it's companies like RR have deeper defence cooperation with American Giants Like GE and P&W than France.

Indeed.
That proves that UK is no more self reliable (as on nuclear reactor, or on SLBM design....)

And between you and me, the F-136 engine muddle show you the depth of your cooperation....

 

[MMM-E]

I think rank for military turbofan would be:

1. US
2. UK

I agree about turbofan Engine
USA and The UK rules turbofan Engine technology


but total of Aviation Industry

1 -- USA
2 -- Russia
3 -- China

Others not even close

4 -- France

France has Mirage-2000 , Rafale , A400M , A330-MRTT , H-215 and H225M Helicopters and TIGRE Attack Helicopter
also Satellites from THALES and AIRBUS
AAROK UCAV under development
NEURON stealth UCAV under development



in 2028-2030 , Turkiye will enter top 5

-- HURKUS trainer and light Attack Aircraft
-- HURJET trainer and light Attack Fighter Jet
-- KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet
-- KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet
-- ANKA-3 flying wing deep strike stealth UCAV

-- TB-2 , TB-3 , ANKA , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs
-- SUPER SIMSEK , KARGI kamikaze Drones

-- T-629 light Attack Helicopter
-- T-929 heavy Attack Helicopter

-- T-625 utility Helicopter ( 6 tons )
-- T-925 utility Helicopter ( 10+ tons )

-- Satelittes
-- Hybrid Rocket Engine and Liquid propellant Rocket Engine technologies for Turkish Space Program
-- Satellite Launch Vehicle

-- TF-6.000 and TF-10.000 turbofan Engines for ANKA-3 and KIZILELMA
-- TF-35.000 turbofan Engines for KAAN
-- TS-1.400 and TS-3.000 turboshaft Engines for Helicopters
-- PD-170 and PD-220 Engines for TB-3 , ANKA , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs
-- KTJ-1750 , KTJ-3200 , KTJ-3700 turbojet Engines for CAKIR , SOM , ATMACA Cruise Missiles
-- TEI PG-50 and TEI TJ-90 Engine to power Kamikaze Drones


ALSO
-- REDET-II Radar Electronic Warfare System
-- Airborne stand off Jammer
-- Targeting and EW Jamming Pods
-- FEWS EW Suite for Fighter Jets
-- HEWS EW Suite for Helicopters
-- ERALP Early warning AESA Radar ( GaN ) technology )
-- MURAD and BURFIS AESA Radars ( GaN ) technology ) for Fighter Jets
-- TULGAR Helmet Integrated Imaging System
-- IRST , BEOS/EOTS (Advanced optical Systems)
-- Directional Infrared Counter Measures .. ( Aselsan YILDIRIM DIRCM)
-- MILDAR Millimeter wave fire control Radar for Attack Helicopters
-- HEHSIS 360 degree Electronic Warfare Counter Measure System

All kinds of Missiles and Guided Bombs
-- SOM , CAKIR , KUZGUN-TJ air launched Cruise Missile
-- KEMANKES mini smart Cruise Missile
-- AKBABA supersonic anti-radiation Missile
-- IHA-230 air launched supersonic Ballistic Missile

-- TEBER , HGK , KGK , LGK , NEB , TOLUN , SDB guided Bombs

-- BOZDOGAN WVR Air to Air Missile
-- GOKDOGAN BVR Air to Air Missile
-- GOKHAN ramjet powered long range Air to Air Missile

-- KORKUT 35 mm SPAAG with airbust ammunition
-- SUNGUR MANPADS
-- GURZ hybrid Air Defense System
-- GOKDEMIR medium altitude Air Defense System
-- HISAR-A low altitude Air Defense System
-- HISAR-O medium altitude Air Defense System
-- SIPER high altitude Air Defense System
-- GUMS Ballistic Missile Intercaptor

 

[Foinikas]

I agree about turbofan Engine
USA and The UK rules turbofan Engine technology


but total of Aviation Industry

1 -- USA
2 -- Russia
3 -- China

Others not even close

4 -- France

France has Mirage-2000 , Rafale , A400M , A330-MRTT , H-215 and H225M Helicopters and TIGRE Attack Helicopter
also Satellites from THALES and AIRBUS
AAROK UCAV under development
NEURON stealth UCAV under development



in 2028-2030 , Turkiye will enter top 5

-- HURKUS trainer and light Attack Aircraft
-- HURJET trainer and light Attack Fighter Jet
-- KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet
-- KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet
-- ANKA-3 flying wing deep strike stealth UCAV

-- TB-2 , TB-3 , ANKA , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs
-- SUPER SIMSEK , KARGI kamikaze Drones

-- T-629 light Attack Helicopter
-- T-929 heavy Attack Helicopter

-- T-625 utility Helicopter ( 6 tons )
-- T-925 utility Helicopter ( 10+ tons )

-- Satelittes
-- Hybrid Rocket Engine and Liquid propellant Rocket Engine technologies for Turkish Space Program
-- Satellite Launch Vehicle

-- TF-6.000 and TF-10.000 turbofan Engines for ANKA-3 and KIZILELMA
-- TF-35.000 turbofan Engines for KAAN
-- TS-1.400 and TS-3.000 turboshaft Engines for Helicopters
-- PD-170 and PD-220 Engines for TB-3 , ANKA , AKSUNGUR and AKINCI UCAVs
-- KTJ-1750 , KTJ-3200 , KTJ-3700 turbojet Engines for CAKIR , SOM , ATMACA Cruise Missiles
-- TEI PG-50 and TEI TJ-90 Engine to power Kamikaze Drones


ALSO
-- REDET-II Radar Electronic Warfare System
-- Airborne stand off Jammer
-- Targeting and EW Jamming Pods
-- FEWS EW Suite for Fighter Jets
-- HEWS EW Suite for Helicopters
-- ERALP Early warning AESA Radar ( GaN ) technology )
-- MURAD and BURFIS AESA Radars ( GaN ) technology ) for Fighter Jets
-- TULGAR Helmet Integrated Imaging System
-- IRST , BEOS/EOTS (Advanced optical Systems)
-- Directional Infrared Counter Measures .. ( Aselsan YILDIRIM DIRCM)
-- MILDAR Millimeter wave fire control Radar for Attack Helicopters
-- HEHSIS 360 degree Electronic Warfare Counter Measure System

All kinds of Missiles and Guided Bombs
-- SOM , CAKIR , KUZGUN-TJ air launched Cruise Missile
-- KEMANKES mini smart Cruise Missile
-- AKBABA supersonic anti-radiation Missile
-- IHA-230 air launched supersonic Ballistic Missile

-- TEBER , HGK , KGK , LGK , NEB , TOLUN , SDB guided Bombs

-- BOZDOGAN WVR Air to Air Missile
-- GOKDOGAN BVR Air to Air Missile
-- GOKHAN ramjet powered long range Air to Air Missile

-- KORKUT 35 mm SPAAG with airbust ammunition
-- SUNGUR MANPADS
-- GURZ hybrid Air Defense System
-- GOKDEMIR medium altitude Air Defense System
-- HISAR-A low altitude Air Defense System
-- HISAR-O medium altitude Air Defense System
-- SIPER high altitude Air Defense System
-- GUMS Ballistic Missile Intercaptor

Nobody asked about Turkiye. The thread is about France vs USA.

 

[Zhukov]

Why some people discount French Weapons Industry like that?.
Their technology is ages ahead of Russia. And ahead of Other european counterparts like England, Germany, Italy , Sweden etc.
France is second only to USA in my opinnion. Specially in Aviation. Dassault have proven itself for decades now.
Relaible, Sanctions free and effective.

 

[MMM-E]

What is the latest military engine 100% studied and built by GB ? I think it is the Spey, a 60's engine.
Since they were all made with other europeans country.

Rolls Royce ORPHEUS next gen turbofan Engine for TEMPEST Fighter Jet program

The Rolls-Royce UltraFan is the biggest turbofan in history for civil aviation

 

[Foinikas]

Why some people discount French Weapons Industry like that?.
Their technology is ages ahead of Russia. And ahead of Other european counterparts like England, Germany, Italy , Sweden etc.
France is second only to USA in my opinnion. Specially in Aviation. Dassault have proven itself for decades now.
Relaible, Sanctions free and effective.

Well usually the British block is very snobbish of the French,so...you know.

 

[BON PLAN]

but total of Aviation Industry

1 -- USA
2 -- Russia
3 -- China

China is only able to copy and paste on this market. They are not among the 3 best.
Probably in the future but not now.

For the commercial liners, their last bird is a copy of Airbus A321....
J10 = Lavi x 120% scale.
J31 is a twin engine F-35.

Rolls Royce ORPHEUS next gen turbofan Engine for TEMPEST Fighter Jet program
View attachment 954778

The Rolls-Royce UltraFan is the biggest turbofan in history for civil aviation
View attachment 954777

ORPHEUS is only a paper project so far. Just compare the mature products, ie today technology.
Powerpoint projects are a UK and US specialty.

 

[MMM-E]

China is only able to copy and paste on this market. They are not among the 3 best.
Probably in the future but not now.

For the commercial liners, their last bird is a copy of Airbus A321....
J10 = Lavi x 120% scale.
J31 is a twin engine F-35.

That doesnt matter copy or not

In a war .. You can not say that Chinese weapons wont work .. because of copy

China has enough technology and modern facilities to produce everything to fight against even USA

ORPHEUS is only a paper project so far. Just compare the mature products, ie today technology.

Not paper project

Rolls Royce produced 2 prototypes and built nearly twice as fast as a conventional engine programme.


Paper project = French FCAS for 2050