France rules out submarine sale to Pakistan (according to Dunya news).

[waz]

"Were", doesn't mean they still are, since Pakistan and Germany have changed since 2009. Pakistan then was a difficult country to sell arms to and the government quite some time to get all necessary approvals, but it's even more difficult today, with the situation in the country being more unstable.
Also the current German Minister for economic affairs, is pushing a very restrictive arms export policy ,which makes it hard even to sell weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia or Indonesia, which not only have the money, but politically are more regarded than Pakistan.
So if the French back out (and they generally are ready to sell to anybody), it makes it more than difficult for the German government to justify a sale to Pakistan, on political terms in the first place, let alone the financial issues. Also, the last time the French stated ToT related issues for not selling stuff, was influenced by the US government and if that is still the case, that influence is even stronger on the German.

Btw, U214 is not just the export designation, but is the export sub, which by design is based on the older generation of German U209 subs. It shares some techs and systems with the U212, but still has credible differences.

But doesn't it also tell something about PN's confidence in Chinese subs, when they after 6 years still are trying hard to get western subs, against all political and financial odds, when the Chinese subs and loans should be far easier to get?

Well at the same time you can't say they won't. The reports are quite credible. Pakistan is in a far better shape now politically and economically. I can't think of any commentator that would say that the Pakistan of 2009 was better than the Pakistan of present. As for German politics, you talked of the minister of economic affairs i.e. Sigmar Gabriel, his recent pressing for a change in export approvals has been a result of opposition pressure, particularly the embarrassing revelations made ahead of his Middle East tour.

You might find this interesting;

New arms export revelations embarrass Gabriel ahead of Mid-East tour | Germany | DW.DE | 06.03.2015

Do remember the talk of the Saudi export ban back in early January, we have now seen a sudden clearance of this ban, which included shooting simulation systems, target display devices and border security technology.


Germany approves weapons exports to Saudi Arabia | News | DW.DE | 04.02.2015

Staying on that theme (unpredictability) Sigmar's own political future was in doubt when he criticised Israel, back in 2012, but nothing happened and he went from strength to strength.

As for being regarded Pakistan is major non-NATO ally, is still engaged in a asymmetric war against terrorists who threaten Western interests and so on. Yes submarines are not needed to fight them, but Western states are likely to lean towards empathy, which bodes well in general. Also none of this was an issue when the deal was nearly signed, it was Pakistan who withdrew.

The French withdrawal doesn't necessitate a German withdrawl. There are numerous examples of the French losing out and even being involved in negotiations with states, and the Germans making counter offers. Had this been the case the Germans would not be speaking to the government right now, as France declared its intentions a while back.

Yes the 214 is an export submarine, but it's effectiveness is well renowned, with leading navies such as the RSK and Hellenic Navy ordering the submarines. There was a technical breakdown that has been written up by German members, some years back, who rebutted Indian posters who at the time were making mockery of any potential deal i.e. that Pakistan was getting a second rate model. I might add that is something that you are not doing, but worth mentioning in this post.

As for the Chinese issue, where you are inferring that the navy doesn't have the same confidence in Chinese systems. An earlier post addressed that i.e. certain requirements the PN needs may not be met by a Western supplier.

Anyway, it is possible to narrow down the posts more and not on whether a sale may or may not happen, at the moment, there is just talk of discussions, in the end nothing may come of it.

 

[syedali73]

2005 earthquake and 2010 floods ate all the funds

Wasn't the same excuse given for reducing the number of F-16 Blk 52? With the same money we were buying both the F-16s and the subs?

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011. There goes your french theory

How long have you followed defense strategies for?? If you don't understand an issue in its entirety, why even care to write posts like the above and generalize the entire globe on ONE action? Its a waste of my time, but I'll try to explain:

1) Submarine tech is highly sensitive. Its something that the West (specially the Germans and the French), don't want to allow to go anywhere, where it can leak to anyone. Its VERY strategic, if you think about it, Submarines are the MOST strategic assets left in the globe for a second and third retaliatory strike/s.

2) The French know that the Chinese are hell bent in making subs with AIP. When Pakistan asks for stuff, it also asks for technical specifications, overhaul, capability, etc, which would then expose half the tech to foreign hands immediatelyt5. The French gave the Augusta's tech away. They don't want to provide their most recent tech to Pakistan who is the closes ally of China, due to sensitivity.

3) Apply the most sensitive element of second or third strike capability and now compare that to avionics, jet engines and air to air missile comparison.......do you not see a clear difference? A BLIND can see Earth and Sky's worth of difference between the two!!

When they provide JFT related engines, radars and missiles, these are "export" versions, and therefore, are of slightly lower quality. PLUS, the French have Rafale and EFT as their main regional fighter jets, FAR advanced than the JFT, who's French Radar (if provided) and engines (if provided), will have less capabilities compared to their Rafale and Mirage 2005-9. But still great stuff to

So they can make money and STILL provide a level below their top tech to Pakistan. Its good business practice. In submarines case, its totally understandable as to why they said no to Pakistan. Its high risk.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Wasn't the same excuse given for reducing the number of F-16 Blk 52? With the same money we were buying both the F-16s and the subs?

yep

 

[black-hawk_101]

France refuses supply of submarines over issue of transfer of technology | Pakistan | Dunya News

ISLAMABAD (Dunya News) – Secretary Defense Alam Khattak said on Friday that forces would be sent to Saudi Arabia on the discretion of government. Talking to the standing committee, Alam Khattak was told that the transfer of submarines to Pakistan was suspended by France due to issues pertaining to transfer of technology, reported Dunya News.

Secretary Defense Lieutenant General(R) Alam Khattak explained army’s stance for the first time during the ongoing Yemen crisis.

The Defense Secretary said that the army would follow the policy outlined by the government.

Disagreement arose between members of the committee regarding Pakistan’s involvement in Yemen crisis at the meeting.

Officials of Pakistan Navy told the committee that government had sent a summary to Chinese government for demand of 8submarines.

The officials told the meeting that government was in talks with Germany, Britain and France regarding procurement ofsubmarines however France has refused amid worries over transfer of technology.

The officials informed that the Navy was being upgraded to in accordance with defense policy which demanded the induction of submarines into the fleet.

The defense officials dismissed the claims of Chinese equipment as faulty adding that the defense technology acquired from China is completely reliable.

Honestly! I hate Chinese equipments. Better for PN to bring in more countries with it like KSA, UAE, Oman and may be Malaysia with Indonesia to deal with France or Germany over the R&D and JV of new class submarines.

 

[syedali73]

Honestly! I hate Chinese equipments.

How many Chinese equipment you have used before reaching to this honest conclusion of yours?

 

[Screambowl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/583379252751515648

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

How many Chinese equipment you have used before reaching to this honest conclusion of yours?

he is nishan the notorious troll he is infected with JV virus
its better to ignore him

 

[Imran Khan]

How many Chinese equipment you have used before reaching to this honest conclusion of yours?

he use china mobiles

 

[SrNair]

Bhai.
Relax!! After all it is only a forum a d we are here to LISTEN AND HOPEFULLY LEARN from each other. As to the German deal we backed out because of Problems. with the financing of the Dea as cash was restricted followi g the last big floods and the bloody Zardari govtt. Probably the Germans were not as forth coming with a topping of Zardaris liking and therefore no deal. The AIP on the 214 is a different type but they do have 533mm tubes for small CM launch. However the Germans are still influenced by Israel so whether there was any pressure on them from that quarter or not is also a possibility.
As to now we dont have a chance of acquiring western tech DIRECTLY from Germans or from the French and hence we are taking some other measures to have our product of some matching quality. The Chinese option needs not be discussed as a lot had been said. Needless to say that for a bang for the buck it is the only affordable offer and the way the chinese are improving and evolving and the way they are sharing their experiences with PN is exemplary. Interestingly we have been hearing this news since 2010 and apparently still no deal signed. Do members ponder over it in light of what happened with the JFT. With Pak- China our friends will deliver on our expectations at a price we can afford and share the development with us. What more do we want.
Araz

Sir I agree.
I didnt said Chinese tech are that bad .But against Europeans
I would say still a long way to go.That is not due to their inability but you cant replace decades of experience .
Tommorrow if someone asked me to compare Aircraft industry of India and China.I would surely say that India is nothing in front of China.Because they have a lots more investment and experience.

PN is still looking for a used modern sub from Europe because they know the quality of their sub.After all you already have three Agosta sub.
But Israel or US will jam these development if they want.You are absolutely right there

 

[Shabi1]

France offered Pakistan a new type of submarine called the Marlin class. Its a new submarine on the drawing board. Was rejected as PN got tempted with Chinese options. The Yuan AIP subs are very capable submarines and have AIP, wont be surprised if Agosta technology was leaked into it. Chinese submarines have repeatedly been a nuisance to US carrier groups and reached withing firing ranges undetected. A little googling it up will give details.

What has changed since then is that kick back details on the Agosta deal surfaced and French public will raise the issue if another sub deal made. Even though nothing proved and it was pinned on sabotage terrorists, rumor has it that DCN offered kick backs to a middleman who brokered the deal and then didnt pay, the middleman is rumored to have assisted a bombing which killed French engineers in Pakistan working on Agosta TOT in revenge.

So Chinese is the way to go.... talk of western alternatives is just for tender and evaluation purposes.

 

[MilSpec]

How long have you followed defense strategies for?? If you don't understand an issue in its entirety, why even care to write posts like the above and generalize the entire globe on ONE action? Its a waste of my time, but I'll try to explain:

1) Submarine tech is highly sensitive. Its something that the West (specially the Germans and the French), don't want to allow to go anywhere, where it can leak to anyone. Its VERY strategic, if you think about it, Submarines are the MOST strategic assets left in the globe for a second and third retaliatory strike/s.

2) The French know that the Chinese are hell bent in making subs with AIP. When Pakistan asks for stuff, it also asks for technical specifications, overhaul, capability, etc, which would then expose half the tech to foreign hands immediatelyt5. The French gave the Augusta's tech away. They don't want to provide their most recent tech to Pakistan who is the closes ally of China, due to sensitivity.

3) Apply the most sensitive element of second or third strike capability and now compare that to avionics, jet engines and air to air missile comparison.......do you not see a clear difference? A BLIND can see Earth and Sky's worth of difference between the two!!

Captain Obvious. It's called proliferation...That is where your nations credibility stands,

When they provide JFT related engines, radars and missiles, these are "export" versions, and therefore, are of slightly lower quality. PLUS, the French have Rafale and EFT as their main regional fighter jets, FAR advanced than the JFT, who's French Radar (if provided) and engines (if provided), will have less capabilities compared to their Rafale and Mirage 2005-9. But still great stuff to

So they can make money and STILL provide a level below their top tech to Pakistan. Its good business practice. In submarines case, its totally understandable as to why they said no to Pakistan. Its high risk.

So when is your 4 billion dollar deal happening. ? Keep me posted

 

[Providence]

France can directly sell the tech to china for much higher price

 

[Dalit]

France offered Pakistan a new type of submarine called the Marlin class. Its a new submarine on the drawing board. Was rejected as PN got tempted with Chinese options. The Yuan AIP subs are very capable submarines and have AIP, wont be surprised if Agosta technology was leaked into it. Chinese submarines have repeatedly been a nuisance to US carrier groups and reached withing firing ranges undetected. A little googling it up will give details.

What has changed since then is that kick back details on the Agosta deal surfaced and French public will raise the issue if another sub deal made. Even though nothing proved and it was pinned on sabotage terrorists, rumor has it that DCN offered kick backs to a middleman who brokered the deal and then didnt pay, the middleman is rumored to have assisted a bombing which killed French engineers in Pakistan working on Agosta TOT in revenge.

So Chinese is the way to go.... talk of western alternatives is just for tender and evaluation purposes.

Very well said bro!

Captain Obvious. It's called proliferation...That is where your nations credibility stands,



So when is your 4 billion dollar deal happening. ? Keep me posted

LMAO Ostrich is having a party it seems. Keep it up ostrich. Keep it up.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

France offered Pakistan a new type of submarine called the Marlin class. Its a new submarine on the drawing board. Was rejected as PN got tempted with Chinese options. The Yuan AIP subs are very capable submarines and have AIP, wont be surprised if Agosta technology was leaked into it. Chinese submarines have repeatedly been a nuisance to US carrier groups and reached withing firing ranges undetected. A little googling it up will give details.

What has changed since then is that kick back details on the Agosta deal surfaced and French public will raise the issue if another sub deal made. Even though nothing proved and it was pinned on sabotage terrorists, rumor has it that DCN offered kick backs to a middleman who brokered the deal and then didnt pay, the middleman is rumored to have assisted a bombing which killed French engineers in Pakistan working on Agosta TOT in revenge.

So Chinese is the way to go.... talk of western alternatives is just for tender and evaluation purposes.

You are spot on.

The Marlin Class Subs have been ordered by Saudi Navy and hence France was also interested in Pakistan Navy.

The problem is that PN requires more subs immediately due to the enhancement of its maritime responsibilities.

If the news regarding the acquisition of Subs for PN is correct then PN is in fact trying to purchase more used Agosta 90 subs from either France or Spain.

The new Yuan AIP subs will also be increased over the years to replace the Agosta's, so far 8 are to be ordered .