France rules out submarine sale to Pakistan (according to Dunya news).

[Viper0011.]

Captain Obvious. It's called proliferation...That is where your nations credibility stands,

By the way, the same French kicked you out of the Rafale deal too........you didn't care to mention that. And now, embarrassing as is, you finally "announce it"??? They told you, India was out last year.You didn't care to elaborate on that topic????

Just because I gave you my honest opinion about a country, you obviously hate, and my response wasn't praising India the soup-o-pawah, doesn't mean my nation automatically "change". My priorities lie with the flags you see in under my name. And that's the country I'll fight for, whether it be against India or Pakistan or anyone else!! Don't underestimate people by their posts. Read the content and if you have issues with accepting reality, go see a doctor.

And I will keep you up to speed on the 4 billion deal for sure. India, Pakistan and China are my areas of expertise and interests. I write on BR just as much with a different name. So seeing this behavior, isn't new. When you see something not in favor of India, you jump right to personal insults and name calling.

 

[ice_man]

OFCOURSE NO SUBS for PAKISTAN. due to 2 reasons:

1) india will pull out of the scorpene deal if Pak is offered subs

2) the agosta fiasco where sarkozy and zardari both got kick backs are still fresh in the minds of the french

 

[babbar]

LMAO Ostrich is having a party it seems. Keep it up ostrich. Keep it up.

Forums self appointed conscience keeper and think tank analyst syedali thanked this post.

This is an indication of the improving quality of posting on PDF.

 

[A2Z]

Tommorrow if Germany offers their 214 with a price tag similar to Chinese sub .Pakistan will take Germans

They plan to purchase german submarines if they are offering a good deal even without SLCM but the chinese deal is on. 8 chinese subs and a handful of european subs is what PN has in mind.

 

[Storm Force]

Nothing will.happen. unless it's grant aided or free or soft loans

Pakistan.today is in.a financial.breakdown.

Even a few hundreds millions is beyond them

 

[sancho]

Well at the same time you can't say they won't.

I didn't said they won't, but that it's harder now than it was then and if the report is true, the ToT issue will effect Germany too, because that would be security related issue for NATO countries and not just a matter of offset proposals of 2 different vendors.

Pakistan is in a far better shape now politically and economically. I can't think of any commentator that would say that the Pakistan of 2009 was better than the Pakistan of present.

Really? After the Bin Laden Raid, the horrific attacks on schools, air ports, politicians or the recent attack on a church, that also was widely reported in the west, you can't honestly think that the west sees an improvement in Pakistan in the recent years. The only good thing was, that the tensions between Pakistan and India went down to a good extend, because that made both of our countries look more responsible and not just to be 3rd world countries with Nukes that always are on the verge of war. The problems within Pakistan however increased and that's a crucial difference to 2009, which as I said makes things more difficult.

As for German politics, you talked of the minister of economic affairs i.e. Sigmar Gabriel, his recent pressing for a change in export approvals has been a result of opposition pressure.

That's not correct, the opposition doesn't play any role in Germany today, since the 2 biggest parties formed a coalition after the last elections, with a large majority. Sigmar Gabriel is the leader of one of the parties and is trying to diversify his party and gain the trust of more left voters, with this policy. Under his term, the arms exports of Germany went down of about 20%, which is a credible ammount and that even against strong lobbies. He is also the vice chancellor of Germany, so you shouldn't underestimate his current power and influence, nor see it as a short term measure, since his aim is based on the long term profile of his party as well as his own, since he will fight in the next election to be German chancellor, when Angela Merkel resigns from politics.

As for the Chinese issue, where you are inferring that the navy doesn't have the same confidence in Chinese systems. An earlier post addressed that i.e. certain requirements the PN needs may not be met by a Western supplier.

No it wasn't adressed, because the Chinese option was the only one available since the German deal didn't happend, so buying them was a necessity, not an option. But the fact that this deal still didn't happend yet, while PN according the opening report still is trying hard to get western subs, is showing where the priority is. Also they can't serve different requirements, since the Chinese SSK's afaik are proposed with AIP as well and of similar a class.

 

[waz]

I didn't said they won't, but that it's harder now than it was then and if the report is true, the ToT issue will effect Germany too, because that would be security related issue for NATO countries and not just a matter of offset proposals of 2 different vendors.

Then to be honest we will have to wait how this turns out. There is no certainty here. The TOT issue has been a concern for quite a while now and yet we still see exports.

Really? After the Bin Laden Raid, the horrific attacks on schools, air ports, politicians or the recent attack on a church, that also was widely reported in the west, you can't honestly think that the west sees an improvement in Pakistan in the recent years. The only good thing was, that the tensions between Pakistan and India went down to a good extend, because that made both of our countries look more responsible and not just to be 3rd world countries with Nukes that always are on the verge of war. The problems within Pakistan however increased and that's a crucial difference to 2009, which as I said makes things more difficult.

Yes really. The Bin ladin raid was a while back, there have been attacks, but no where near the frequency that they were occurring at during 2009, and the earlier years. I can say that there has been an improvement, I can't say for a certainty the West thinks likewise , but neither can you say there has been a deteriration. It's a case of perceptions....

That's not correct, the opposition doesn't play any role in Germany today, since the 2 biggest parties formed a coalition after the last elections, with a large majority. Sigmar Gabriel is the leader of one of the parties and is trying to diversify his party and gain the trust of more left voters, with this policy. Under his term, the arms exports of Germany went down of about 20%, which is a credible ammount and that even against strong lobbies. He is also the vice chancellor of Germany, so you shouldn't underestimate his current power and influence, nor see it as a short term measure, since his aim is based on the long term profile of his party as well as his own, since he will fight in the next election to be German chancellor, when Angela Merkel resigns from politics.

I know they only control 20% of the parliament, but the issue is sensitive and strummed up debate ahead of his tour. The likes of Volker Kauder and Claudia Roth also waded in with their voices through the press. Yes, I'm fully aware of his role and didn't underestimate it. Yes weapons exports have gone down in his term as reported by the likes of Suddeutsche Zeitung, but exports have been cleared to Saudi Arabia, which you mentioned in your prevous post would find it very "hard" to receive weapons. The other big factor here is the split in the coalition on such weapons exports to the likes of Saudi Arabia, with a growing number of law makers calling for a rethink, and it's interesting to note the "war on terror" is being used as justification for it.

Please read:

German Split Opens Over Blocked Sale of Tanks to Saudi Arabia - Bloomberg Business

There is also the economic angle to this. NATO countries are cutting back on arms spending and the big markets now are the Middle East and other regions. Revenue from weapons export licenses was 3.97 billion euros in 2014, which fell from 5.8 billion in 2013. These are big numbers and corporate pressure could play a role.

No it wasn't adressed, because the Chinese option was the only one available since the German deal didn't happend, so buying them was a necessity, not an option. But the fact that this deal still didn't happend yet, while PN according the opening report still is trying hard to get western subs, is showing where the priority is. Also they can't serve different requirements, since the Chinese SSK's afaik are proposed with AIP as well and of similar a class.

It was addressed in justifying the reasoning of approaching parallel bids i.e. sanction threats, missile integration and other customisation etc. When the German deal was off, talks began with the Chinese and what we are probably seeing is the culmination of these talks i.e. a signing. Obviously this news story is quite recent and it clearly talks of discussions with Western states, without the Chinese being mentioned. This seems to be a continuation of talks the government had in earlier years i.e. the procurement of Western subs. Members close to the navy also stated the desire for a diversity in the submarine force.

Also, please, if you want to talk about the state of the Pakistani economy, terror attacks etc there are ongoing threads. If you want to talk about German exports to Saudi and other states, again there is a thread on it, and we can get the Saudi members involved as well.

 

[OrionHunter]

The officials told the meeting that government was in talks with Germany, Britain and France regarding procurement ofsubmarines however France has refused amid worries over transfer of technology.

The French are apprehensive that Pakistan would share cutting edge tech of the subs with their all weather friend, the Chinese!

I daresay that the other Western countries mentioned may have the same apprehensions about Pakistan sharing their tech with the Chinese like they did in the case of the American stealth chopper that crashed during the OBL raid.

 

[waz]

The French are apprehensive that Pakistan would share cutting edge tech of the subs with their all weather friend, the Chinese!

I daresay that the other Western countries mentioned may have the same apprehensions about Pakistan sharing their tech with the Chinese like they did in the case of the American stealth chopper that crashed during the OBL raid.

For the French, it's a case of opportunity cost. Back in the early 90's when the Chinese were further behind in their various submarine programs, it was more prudent for the French to have refused the sale of the Agostas, they didn't. Now with China having made great leaps I wouldn't though that would be the primary reasons for a refusal.

 

[MilSpec]

By the way, the same French kicked you out of the Rafale deal too........you didn't care to mention that. And now, embarrassing as is, you finally "announce it"??? They told you, India was out last year.You didn't care to elaborate on that topic????

French kicked India out? You have no clue clue of what India-French deals are, do you now? read up and stop embarrassing yourself on a public forum.

Just because I gave you my honest opinion about a country, you obviously hate, and my response wasn't praising India the soup-o-pawah, doesn't mean my nation automatically "change". My priorities lie with the flags you see in under my name. And that's the country I'll fight for, whether it be against India or Pakistan or anyone else!! Don't underestimate people by their posts. Read the content and if you have issues with accepting reality, go see a doctor.

Apologies, I keep forgetting that you are an "american". My bad

And I will keep you up to speed on the 4 billion deal for sure. India, Pakistan and China are my areas of expertise and interests. I write on BR just as much with a different name. So seeing this behavior, isn't new. When you see something not in favor of India, you jump right to personal insults and name calling.

Well, if logic worked and you could comprehend the title of the thread, I wouldn't construct it in premise of anti India move by france, but then it's you... So keep me posted, wouldn't hold my breath though

 

[Shamain]

anyone dealing with india must always remember bofors and chopper gate scandals.
Btw dcns is giving hard time transferring technology to india , why i see indians swanking on in here? shamain wonders,

 

[Saifullah Sani]

France refuses supply of submarines over issue of transfer of technology | Pakistan | Dunya News

ISLAMABAD (Dunya News) – Secretary Defense Alam Khattak said on Friday that forces would be sent to Saudi Arabia on the discretion of government. Talking to the standing committee, Alam Khattak was told that the transfer of submarines to Pakistan was suspended by France due to issues pertaining to transfer of technology, reported Dunya News.

Secretary Defense Lieutenant General(R) Alam Khattak explained army’s stance for the first time during the ongoing Yemen crisis.

The Defense Secretary said that the army would follow the policy outlined by the government.

Disagreement arose between members of the committee regarding Pakistan’s involvement in Yemen crisis at the meeting.

Officials of Pakistan Navy told the committee that government had sent a summary to Chinese government for demand of 8submarines.

The officials told the meeting that government was in talks with Germany, Britain and France regarding procurement ofsubmarines however France has refused amid worries over transfer of technology.

The officials informed that the Navy was being upgraded to in accordance with defense policy which demanded the induction of submarines into the fleet.

The defense officials dismissed the claims of Chinese equipment as faulty adding that the defense technology acquired from China is completely reliable.

old news

 

[babbar]

Apologies, I keep forgetting that you are an "american". My bad

LOL

That really cracked me up!

 

[shaheenmissile]

Pakistan has the machinery and skills to build their own sub, why dont they?
AIP will be imported,

 

[wiseone2]

anyone dealing with india must always remember bofors and chopper gate scandals.
Btw dcns is giving hard time transferring technology to india , why i see indians swanking on in here? shamain wonders,

do not offer bribes ...

For the French, it's a case of opportunity cost. Back in the early 90's when the Chinese were further behind in their various submarine programs, it was more prudent for the French to have refused the sale of the Agostas, they didn't. Now with China having made great leaps I wouldn't though that would be the primary reasons for a refusal.

How much did France make on the Agosta 90 submarine deal for three submarines ? You make it sound like Pakistan is this gigantic market

France offered Pakistan a new type of submarine called the Marlin class. Its a new submarine on the drawing board. Was rejected as PN got tempted with Chinese options. The Yuan AIP subs are very capable submarines and have AIP, wont be surprised if Agosta technology was leaked into it. Chinese submarines have repeatedly been a nuisance to US carrier groups and reached withing firing ranges undetected. A little googling it up will give details.

What has changed since then is that kick back details on the Agosta deal surfaced and French public will raise the issue if another sub deal made. Even though nothing proved and it was pinned on sabotage terrorists, rumor has it that DCN offered kick backs to a middleman who brokered the deal and then didnt pay, the middleman is rumored to have assisted a bombing which killed French engineers in Pakistan working on Agosta TOT in revenge.

So Chinese is the way to go.... talk of western alternatives is just for tender and evaluation purposes.

Offering the submarine is one thing. Does Pakistan have the funds to buy them ?
It is like me walking into a Porsche showroom and the car salesman offering me the Porsche car.