For Indian war planners, is the PAF their worst fear?

[anoopsaxena76]

Now Why would a massive and established army do that. I wont get into the details of the "WHY". I will invite you to tell me yourself and then decide What Far Superior Means !

Try reading India's "COLD START FOR HOT WAR" and its reasons and the infrastructure required . Again far superiority doesn't demand such a massive change . Please Read and decide

Since this is the first day here, and in this context, I will just say this only one time, I as an Indian would say IAF is the best in the world and likewise I would expect every Pakistani to say PAF is the best in the world, every American to say USAF is the best in the world, so on and so forth.

Now coming back to a real discussion throwing away my jingoism , I do think there is nothing much to choose between the two AFs. There is no clear cut superiority here for either Pakistan or India.

However I do think Cold Start doctrine has not much to do with "superiority" factor. It is about a well coordinated strike which is "swift". The aim being to cause maximum damage before UN can intervene. Just MHO

Regards,
Anoop

 

[Contrarian]

malaymishra...dude i just want to say learn to respect others on this forum ur writing is style is to provocative.... some people might lack knowledge on this forum but they too have the right to express there point of view...like u and i....instead of writing stuff like stop posting crap bla bla bla...just be politie...thanx

Mate, you can only explain once, twice, the third time, things really get on the nerves when the other person just refuses to listen!

However, your point is valid and duly noted by me.

Regards,
Malay

 

[Contrarian]

And how many indians do you plan to squeeze in there? or how many planes can operate from there except the Su-30?

Mirage 2000 can as well. This apart FRA can be pressed in service.

Talking about BM attack on AFB is rather a deviation from this topic. My reply is in line with the topic mentioned in the thread title.

My replies were directed towards Asad-ul-Islaam.

No it won't. Wars aren't planned in isolation of other factors. Besides, if 120 of india's frontline fighters are destroyed in return for 100 of PAF's, there would hardly be anything left to achieve the 'air supremecy'. Remember we have a force of 400+ and at of today, only a few Indian of indian fleet is capable of having deep strike mission from deep indian AFB.

Attrition is a viable option for IAF, for PAF its not.

Then apart, its not IAF vs PAF thing. The entire point of PAF is to NOT allow IAF to attack its Army. It is the Army which would determine the order of the battle. If PAF's frontline fighters are destroyed, it doesnt matter whether IAF possess air superiority planes. What would matter is that there is a dedicated fleet of ground attack planes that would go unchallenged.

Consider, if 100 of PAF's frontline fighters are gone,what would be left? IAF would still have the MiG 29M's and Mirage 2005/9's even after the entire Su-30 fleet is wiped out.
There are over 100 Jaguar strike aircrafts.

IF things were as easy as you are trying to make them sound, a war would have already erupted.

One answer-Nukes. The only thing that has prevented war till date.

 

[Contrarian]

I think u need to know that India in Changing from Gen. Sunderji Doctorine of having three Offensive and 4 defensive cores to " COLD START".
Now Why would a massive and established army do that. I wont get into the details of the "WHY". I will invite you to tell me yourself and then decide What Far Superior Means !

Try reading India's "COLD START FOR HOT WAR" and its reasons and the infrastructure required . Again far superiority doesn't demand such a massive change . Please Read and decide

Having superiority does not mean not to change. The Gen. Sunderji Doctrine is not practical now, because Pakistan would be certain to use nukes if the manouver is successful.

Cold Start is not because of lack of superiority, but the need for punitive military action in light of nuclear weapons possessed by Pakistan.

The second reason for Cold Start is also to reduce(drastically) the mobilizing time of the Army-a flaw realized during Op. Parakram.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Having superiority does not mean not to change. The Gen. Sunderji Doctrine is not practical now, because Pakistan would be certain to use nukes if the manouver is successful.

Cold Start is not because of lack of superiority, but the need for punitive military action in light of nuclear weapons possessed by Pakistan.

The second reason for Cold Start is also to reduce(drastically) the mobilizing time of the Army-a flaw realized during Op. Parakram.

Its Good u realized that it was a flaw .
Now tell except form establishing The SW Command what else has been done towards COLD START.....

 

[Contrarian]

Its Good u realized that it was a flaw .
Now tell except form establishing The SW Command what else has been done towards COLD START.....

Training mainly. There have been exercises in which operational requirements of Cold Start are being validated and tested.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I have already asked you to give proof of a test of a 2500km missile. There is none. There is a 2000km missile. That is established. You seem more keen to prove that there is a longer ranged missile in Pakistan's inventory than to prove your statement that BM's can and will be used for a massive strike on AFB's all over India.

Hamid Mir interviews Samar Mubarakmand, Chairman NESCOM, GEO TV

Hamid Mir: Now if we talk of missiles, you have told us something about Ghaznavi, what is Shaheen, you have now fired Shaheen-II also?
Samar: Shaheen-II is the front line missile of the entire family of missiles being made Pakistan, starting from Hatf-I to Abdali, to Ghaznavi to Shaheen-I version I and Shaheen-I version II to this Shaheen-II. Shaheen-II is a solid fuelled missile, it is a very big missile and weighs 25 tons and consists of two-stages. It has a rocket motor which activates when the missile lifts off which takes the missile to a height of 25 kms after which the rocket motor of second stage is activated and the first stage rocket motor separates at this stage. Then the second stage motor takes the missile to a height of 130 kms and after this its re-entry vehicle which includes the warhead and terminal guidance and control system, this is known as re-entry vehicle, this is then separated from the second stage motor which then takes it forward and after making very accurate corrections takes the missile to a height of 600 kms in orbit after which the missile is brought down and it enters the atmosphere and hits the target.

Hamid Mir: first it goes 600 kms up in the atmosphere, then what is its range ahead of that?
Samar: Its range is 2500 kms and we have fired it to the last boundary of Pakistan’s territorial waters, which is about 2000 kms, and we had selected a target of 1800 kms for it. Its total range is 2500 kms.


By all means dont avoid the technical aspects. You started claiming and talking about Indian missiles and that Pakistani missiles are better. I did not bring in or start about any Indian missile. That is where you are deliberately trying to lead this discussion into-an Indo-Pak mine's bigger than yours.

You claimed that BM's will be used for a massive strike on AFB's. I refute that statement, it cannot and will not be used for that puropose.
no one was talking about indian missiles, I specifically stated Pakistani missiles are some of the most accurate and precise ballistic missiles in the world. there is no need for a massive strike on an airbase, one warhead sent towards the runway would be more than enough. However, we have plenty of different conventional warheads to choose from at our disposal, including thermobaric weapons, and high-explosive cluster warheads. There are more, but those are classified. when extreme accuracy and precision is achieved, nowadays thanks to GPS-corrected terminal guidance systems, conventional warheads can be used to destroy important out-of-reach targets during wartime. Even the US is considering introducing conventional cluster warheads to their Trident SLBM's. (Non-Nuclear Warhead Urged for Trident Missile - washingtonpost.com)

Then you started talking that Cruise Missiles in Pakistan are for second strike capability through the subs. That is also completely wrong. I have elucidated the points. You are deliberately trying to change the direction of this discussion.
nope, the main driving force for our cruise missile programs was to complete the nuclear triad. attacking bases, either using TEL systems, or even firing LACM through VLS from future destroyers, is secondary.

I have already explained what "damned good range" meant, and the significance of FRA. Incase you are incapable of understanding in a single go, i'l write it down again. Increased range of Su-30's as well as the presence of FRA's implies that aircrafts can be based from AFB's deep in India. For BM's to take them out, the deeper the plane is, more the number of missile it would take to even think about taking them out. This is because, to target the outermost AFB, every AFB before it in an arc will have to be attacked as well. That makes the numbers unfeasible.
you're not making sense here. first of all, if and IF we chose to target your bases during wartime with ballistic missiles, you won't have any bases to fly from or come back to. if we decide not to use ballistic missiles in our inventory, it won't make a difference since your Sukhois cannot enter our territory unopposed. Range is irrelevant when dealing with hostile territory, perhaps it would be more suitable for you to fly peace-keeping missions in Africa.

I have already asked you to refrain from personal attacks. You seem incapable of this simple act as well.
The CM is not primarily meant for a nuclear strike. It is meant for a conventional payload, it is still though CAPABLE of carrying a nuclear warhead. It is indeed meant for attacking every node of interest. It is an LACM. For nuclear strike, BM's will be used, not CM. Again there are a multitude of reasons why BM will be used, not a CM.
again, my answer will be the same, cruise missiles were originally developed for nuclear annihilation. Please do some reading into the Cold War and what weapons systems were developed at the time. after the Cold War, the US changed the Tomahawk's role to LACM for striking bases from their destroyers. ask any mod here-since you think they will set me right-what babur cruise missile is really for.

Secondly, as of now, there is no sub in Pakistan's inventory in which Babur can be retrofit. It can only be fit in the U-214 which Pakistan may or maynot acquire. You DONT get second strike capability with an SSK. You get that with an SSN.
you have a very limited understanding of these things. this information is classified, it's for the PN (and some of us) to know and for you to find out.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

u need to have the infrastructre to implement thaT... Its a costly project, We shall see when its Done , How ever PAK Army has already Catered this Docotrine

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Training mainly. There have been exercises in which operational requirements of Cold Start are being validated and tested.

What about Fuel Dumps, MT yards , AMMO Dumps, Line Of communications, Camps ..... u have Build all these to implement it , And Once u r done , then u need Good Commanders by that I mean Amazing Commanders Who are More like Fire and Forget.

Its Not coming that soon. It will take time

 

[mean_bird]

Mirage 2000 can as well. This apart FRA can be pressed in service.


My replies were directed towards Asad-ul-Islaam.

OK

Attrition is a viable option for IAF, for PAF its not.

Then apart, its not IAF vs PAF thing. The entire point of PAF is to NOT allow IAF to attack its Army. It is the Army which would determine the order of the battle. If PAF's frontline fighters are destroyed, it doesnt matter whether IAF possess air superiority planes. What would matter is that there is a dedicated fleet of ground attack planes that would go unchallenged.

Consider, if 100 of PAF's frontline fighters are gone,what would be left? IAF would still have the MiG 29M's and Mirage 2005/9's even after the entire Su-30 fleet is wiped out.
There are over 100 Jaguar strike aircrafts.


One answer-Nukes. The only thing that has prevented war till date.

That's what I first said.

Firstly, eliminating an enemy airforce of the size of pakistan isn't an easy job. You might as well plan a nuclear war thinking we are a billion people and larger in size so some of us might survive...doesn't happen that way.

Secondly, you didn't take into context the fact that nuclear capability has completely changed the scenario of an Indo-pak conflict. If you ever gain air dominance, you leave your enemy with just one choice. That's why in my earlier post i said that a long, fierce all-out battle is no longer an option.

This is the precise reason that has avoided conflict since 1998. You gain nothing in a short and controlled war because your numerical superiority and war endurance doesn't come into play. In a short war, both are roughly equal. You cannot go for a long war because the nuclear option checkmates all your dreams.

 

[Contrarian]

^^
Thus, the change in doctrine and the shift towards Cold Start.

 

[Contrarian]

What about Fuel Dumps, MT yards , AMMO Dumps, Line Of communications, Camps ..... u have Build all these to implement it , And Once u r done , then u need Good Commanders by that I mean Amazing Commanders Who are More like Fire and Forget.

Its Not coming that soon. It will take time

I presently dont know about new arrangements for prepositioning of stocks-though the existing defence corps should already have them near the border.

But i do know that on the issue of Lines of Comm, and Camps, a lot is being done. A LOT of investment has already been done and work is continuing at a fast pace. I have mentioned before, IA is making a LOT of investment and putting up a lot of effort in NCW. Same for Camps(training/ranges) as well.

There have been exercises towards that effect as well.

And by no means would a change in doctrine and strategy be fast. Things like these, especially in the context of such a huge army like IA, would take a lot of time-a decade would not be off mark.

Development of infrastructure has to keep pace with the change in doctrine being practiced-NCW investment and acquisition of strike elements is already being done. They want to change to "massing of effects" than "massing of men".

 

[Contrarian]

It is pointless to discuss this issue with you asaad-ul-islam, we're going around in circles. We disagree, lets end it at that.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

I presently dont know about new arrangements for prepositioning of stocks-though the existing defence corps should already have them near the border.

But i do know that on the issue of Lines of Comm, and Camps, a lot is being done. A LOT of investment has already been done and work is continuing at a fast pace. I have mentioned before, IA is making a LOT of investment and putting up a lot of effort in NCW. Same for Camps(training/ranges) as well.

There have been exercises towards that effect as well.

And by no means would a change in doctrine and strategy be fast. Things like these, especially in the context of such a huge army like IA, would take a lot of time-a decade would not be off mark.

Development of infrastructure has to keep pace with the change in doctrine being practiced-NCW investment and acquisition of strike elements is already being done. They want to change to "massing of effects" than "massing of men".

This would mean a change in IAF Ops patten too. What do you say?
cvz now in the intial phase they r gonna defend the IBS (Integrated Battle Groups) Near the FEBA right?

 

[Contrarian]

This would mean a change in IAF Ops patten too. What do you say?
cvz now in the intial phase they r gonna defend the IBS (Integrated Battle Groups) Near the FEBA right?

Haha! Yes indeed buddy! You got it right!

And look to the last couple of IAF-IA combined excercises! They are being forced or rather made to shift from concentrating just on Air Supremacy to mainly supporting the IA in a big way. IAF is still very reluctant on that.

The MMRCA would be primarily a strike aircraft! That is its intended role.
Thus you see, IAF wants expansion and their pushing hard this time(maybe for the first time), to cater to both the ends.

IBG also plans to use IAF to attack strong points of the enemy, not just defend themselves, but assist them to be able to move faster.