For Indian war planners, is the PAF their worst fear?

[mean_bird]

Most of our weapon complexes, nuclear reactors, re-processing plants, GHQ, almost everything significant is not 'deep' inside Pakistan. All of the mentioned structures are located within 50-75km from the international borders.

To be honest with you, our most assets are well withing the direct 155mm artillery range (40-62km) of the Indians.

Note: My assumption is based on the most latest South African guns and munition, if and when this deal is finalized.

Correct me if I am worng.

The "important things" would be where our BMs are located, where our cruise missile stock is, or other stocks are. Yes destroying the weapon's complex would be a financial loss but in a short war you really depend on your stocks and not ability to make new things during the war. Similarly, GHQ would be a financial loss but it isn't where war planning would be going on.

Thinking of destroying nuclear reactors is rather naive I would say. Pakistan and India routinely share information about nuclear reactors so that they are NOT destroyed during a war. Honestly, you won't destroy a nuclear reactor unless you want a nuclear war or have eliminated all possible warheads and delivery systems.

If that can result in the complete control of the airspace, this is not a bad deal.

Firstly, eliminating an enemy airforce of the size of pakistan isn't an easy job. You might as well plan a nuclear war thinking we are a billion people and larger in size so some of us might survive...doesn't happen that way.

Secondly, you didn't into context the fact that nuclear capability has completely changed the scenario of an Indo-pak conflict. If you ever gain air dominance, you leave your enemy with just one choice. That's why in my earlier post i said that a long, fierce all-out battle is no longer an option.

This is the precise reason that has avoided conflict since 1998. You gain nothing in a short and controlled war because your numerical superiority and war endurance doesn't come into play. In a short war, both are roughly equal. You cannot go for a long war because the nuclear option checkmates all your dreams.

 

[Contrarian]

yes, you still live in an imaginative world, where you can just conduct "surgical strikes" on Pakistani territory to "punish" us, just like the rest of your ignorant countrymen.

Now your deliberately trying to change the issue. Where in the topic are we mentioning about surgical strikes or punitive actions?

STICK TO THE TOPIC. If you dont have a valid argument then dont post, its better than posting and spreading stupidity, which you are currently doing.

yes, that's what our planners have prepared for. exact number for ballistic missile inventory is never available, but the use of ballistic missiles were part of the plan during the Mumbai drama. it's unconventional warfare with a massive wave of SCUD style attacks. we were forced to rely on ballistic missiles and other unconvetional means thanks the arm embargoes.

Please, in gods name, dont talk cr@p you dont know. BM's are only going to be used in tactical roles near the border for conventional weapons. Both India and Pakistan have regiments armed with very low range tactical BM's. They are NOT meant for going to be used for attacking AFB's.

I suppose you are privy to what was part of the plan during the Mumbai massacre?

The fact that your posting cr@p, clearly demonstrates that you dont know much, far less infact than what you claim to know. Its not unconventional warfare to send massive BM's on AFB's. Thats stupidity, and Pakistan will have to rely on that only after other options are absolutely not present. Its not a weapon or option of choice.

Have I not mentioned before the reasons why BM's cannot be used to attack AFB's. Cant you get that through your head?

and I suppose you were being technical? I've already posted a bit more detailed info on our missiles concerning guidance and precision, possible war scenarios, yet the only thing you have thrown at me is "FRA" or IFR and "damned good range".

I have NOT talked about whether Indian missiles are better or not. We are talking about using Pakistani BM's on Indian AFB's for a massive strike.

Dont try to change the issue or change the topic here. Where have i mentioned about Indian missiles.

yeah...so? the whole entire point for developing cruise missiles was for second strike capability. a bit unconventional considering the usage of SLBM's, but perfect due to our budget. almost everyone on this forum knows that, what are you talking about? arguing with you is apparently a waste of time, just like it is arguing with any other indian on this forum.

WHAT!!
Dude, in gods name, please let me say it once again-TALK to one of your senior members here on this forum! I am sure they are going to enlighten you!
The fact that you are consistently mentioning this cr@p, means that in our entire discussion, you still havent learnt something new.

 

[Contrarian]

Well just to set the record straight, no inch of India is out of range of the Shaheen missile. Not even the southern most tip, not even the eastern most tip. There ware many maps, interview of scientists mentioning this or you can calculate for yourself using google earth.

The Southern And Eastern Most tip of India lies in Andaman and Nicobar Islands. I hope you got your answer.

Secondly, I don't see how all this talk is relevant. A war on paper and a war in reality are two completely different things. Otherwise, no wars would be fought. Each side would calculated its number of missiles, range of fighter planes, etc as has been suggested in this thread, and we would have a winner without a single shot being fired. We know, however, that such is not the case in the real world.

Second point is...OK lets consider either a limited war or a fiercer one but very short one. In both cases, you do not "wipe out" enemy bases entirely, you would hardly use ballistic missiles, and your targets would rather be focused.

The point here mate, is not whether you have a limited or protracted war, but we are talking about the post by assad-ul-islaam about the use of BM"s by Pakistan for a massive strike on Indian AFB's.

Let's talk about the scenario "as of today" or very near future. How many Su-30's does Indian have at the moment that have entered service? How many of India's inventory can fly from out-of-range Pak cruise missiles? how many long range weapons are in service today? while the brahmos( has it entered service?) has a maximum range of 290km, ra'ad and babur have ranges of 350km and 700km respectively. Plans for a 1000+ km CM have been there for quite sometime and if the surprise element of Pakistan is anything to go by, I will bet my money there are much more things out there than publicly acknowledged.

Fact is if India has to cause any damage well inside pakistan, they will have to enter deep into pakistani airspace. That means countering PAF jets, that means countering SAM's. Save the new or upgraded ones, how many indian jets are currently in a state to carry out long range strike role and that too as frequently as required in a war scenario?

The defender always have the surprise element to his advantage over the intruder. And till now we even haven't begun talking about tactics.

We were not discussing about this. If you want to discuss this aspect you start another thread and we'l discuss it.

Practically, you don't go into a war so can kill 120 birds while 100 of yours will killing along the way.

Yes you do. India can afford it, thats the entire point. What many people dont think is that in return for a 100 PAF planes destroyed, IAF is even willing to expend 120 planes. It would still be a mission accomplished for IAF and a score for India.

Again though, this discussion can be carried elsewhere.

 

[Contrarian]

'BMD shield will be ready for deployment in 3 to 4 years time'

New Delhi, March 06: After the "hat-trick" of successful trials in its effort to operationalise an indigenous Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield, the DRDO on Friday said the system would be ready for deployment in the next three to four years.

"It will take us one or two more trials before our system is ready to be offered for deployment," DRDO Chief Controller and Distinguished Scientist W Selvamurthy told a news agency here.

"Our last three tests have been quite successful. In the next trials, we will do a combined test of both the endo-atmospheric and exo-atmospheric test," he said.

India today successfully tested the 'Prithvi' Air Defence (PAD) missile for the third time in just over two years. The interceptor PAD missile, launched from a mobile launcher placed in the Wheeler Island's Integrated Test Range off Orissa coast, destroyed the target missile- surface-to-surface 'Dhanush' in this case- at an altitude of 75-km in the sky.

"This combined test will help us assess the joint functioning of the two-tiered BMD shield that is being developed," Selvamurthy said.

DRDO's BMD programme is a two-tier system consisting of two interceptor missiles, namely PAD missile for high altitude interception at altitudes between 50-80 Km, and the Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile for lower altitude interceptions between 15-30 Kms.

The DRDO had earlier successfully tested the BMD system in November 2006 outside the atmosphere mode at 48-km altitude and in December 2007 inside atmosphere at 15-km altitude.

Along with the interceptor missiles, DRDO has also developed the surveillance systems for the shield. The ground-based surveillance and tracking systems along with the command, control and communication systems, can be operated successfully in highly-dense electronic warfare environment.

Bureau Report
BMD shield will be ready for deployment in 3-4 years time

 

[anoopsaxena76]

I find the discussion digressing a lot really.

Coming back to the original question, I find it rather amusing. Any professional military in the world, unless engaged in a sea battle in international waters, which really never happens, would always be wary of the opponent's air assets. I do not quite understand what the OP meant by the words "worst fear". But yes PAF is a force to reckon with and Indian defence analysts would obviously take every scenario into account giving it an appropriate priority.

But why the question?

If the intent is to examine the possibility of a war, full blown or otherwise, then I would think none of our countries can afford to have one. And thankfully there are wise heads sitting in both our respective military who do not get all charged up by our political leaders rhetoric.

If the intent is to examine the possibility of surgical strikes by India or by Pakistan, even that is ruled out. Both are very potent forces and while numerical superiority lies with India, neither is Pakistan an Iraq nor is India an America. Worse the numerical superiority is a misleading term for the simple reason that there is a huge east side border that India shares with other countries and can not afford to move all of its AC from that region. And finally, any surgical strike has the potential to become a full scale war. Which both the sides want to avoid.

regards,
Anoop.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Now your deliberately trying to change the issue. Where in the topic are we mentioning about surgical strikes or punitive actions?

STICK TO THE TOPIC. If you dont have a valid argument then dont post, its better than posting and spreading stupidity, which you are currently doing.
How is that changing the subject and an act of "spreading stupidity"? this is what you said, "Insofar i dont give a damn whether your word is as good as Gold". the statement above is a reply to your ignorance. you won't accept that Pakistan has longer ranged missiles than the Hatf 5 which is the Ghauri 1, of course because you're indian! you're the one who's trying to change the subject here, telling me to stay on subject isn't helping your argument.

Please, in gods name, dont talk cr@p you dont know. BM's are only going to be used in tactical roles near the border for conventional weapons. Both India and Pakistan have regiments armed with very low range tactical BM's. They are NOT meant for going to be used for attacking AFB's.

I suppose you are privy to what was part of the plan during the Mumbai massacre?

The fact that your posting cr@p, clearly demonstrates that you dont know much, far less infact than what you claim to know. Its not unconventional warfare to send massive BM's on AFB's. Thats stupidity, and Pakistan will have to rely on that only after other options are absolutely not present. Its not a weapon or option of choice.
did you even read the fcuking statement properly, you ignoramus? when you achieve a high precision with a ballistic missile, you can use it in warfare with conventional warheads. I've mentioned SCUD style attacks to make it simpler for you to understand, but your ignorance just gets the best of you doesn't it?

Have I not mentioned before the reasons why BM's cannot be used to attack AFB's. Cant you get that through your head?

I have NOT talked about whether Indian missiles are better or not. We are talking about using Pakistani BM's on Indian AFB's for a massive strike.

Dont try to change the issue or change the topic here. Where have i mentioned about Indian missiles.
no one's trying to change the subject here. the more I read, I realize english probably isn't your first language is it? again, you're claiming here that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and that I'm avoiding the technical aspects of weapons systems. So far the only thing you've mentioned here is FRA (IFR) and "damned good range". again, telling me to stay on topic isn't helping. you can't resort to statements like that to make it seem that you are correct.

Dude, in gods name, please let me say it once again-TALK to one of your senior members here on this forum! I am sure they are going to enlighten you!
The fact that you are consistently mentioning this cr@p, means that in our entire discussion, you still havent learnt something new.

[Mod edit]. do you have any idea what you're talking about? do you know where babur cruise missile program origins are from? did it just magically appear overnight only for attacking bases? it can be used to attack bases, but it's purpose is for nuclear annihilation, the same purpose for which the Tomahawk LACM was developed for. it is to be mounted in the torpedo tubes of our subs, and give us the second strike capability we've been looking for, damn! you have no idea what you're talking about, do yourself a favor and let other people post for you.

 

[Hasnain2009]

1. Karachi to Bangladesh-2372km.jpg (90.0 KB)
2. Karachi to Srilanka-2273km.jpg (99.4 KB)
3. Pakistan to Israel-2437km.jpg (98.9 KB)
4. Pakistan to Mumbai-656km.jpg
5. Pakistan to New Dehli-391km

 

[Hasnain2009]

'BMD shield will be ready for deployment in 3 to 4 years time'

New Delhi, March 06: After the "hat-trick" of successful trials in its effort to operationalise an indigenous Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) shield, the DRDO on Friday said the system would be ready for deployment in the next three to four years.

"It will take us one or two more trials before our system is ready to be offered for deployment," DRDO Chief Controller and Distinguished Scientist W Selvamurthy told a news agency here.

"Our last three tests have been quite successful. In the next trials, we will do a combined test of both the endo-atmospheric and exo-atmospheric test," he said.

India today successfully tested the 'Prithvi' Air Defence (PAD) missile for the third time in just over two years. The interceptor PAD missile, launched from a mobile launcher placed in the Wheeler Island's Integrated Test Range off Orissa coast, destroyed the target missile- surface-to-surface 'Dhanush' in this case- at an altitude of 75-km in the sky.

"This combined test will help us assess the joint functioning of the two-tiered BMD shield that is being developed," Selvamurthy said.

DRDO's BMD programme is a two-tier system consisting of two interceptor missiles, namely PAD missile for high altitude interception at altitudes between 50-80 Km, and the Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile for lower altitude interceptions between 15-30 Kms.

The DRDO had earlier successfully tested the BMD system in November 2006 outside the atmosphere mode at 48-km altitude and in December 2007 inside atmosphere at 15-km altitude.

Along with the interceptor missiles, DRDO has also developed the surveillance systems for the shield. The ground-based surveillance and tracking systems along with the command, control and communication systems, can be operated successfully in highly-dense electronic warfare environment.

Bureau Report
BMD shield will be ready for deployment in 3-4 years time

It can only intercept Pirthvi missile, and will not be able to intercept Shaheen-II missile, bcoz it can change its trajectory several times during flight. And its rumored that pakistan aslo have MIRVed missiles, so u cant stop it even russia and USA have not any system to intercept to MIRV missile. And we have Babur Crise Missile, and there is no system in world to intercept that!!missile

 

[satishkumarcsc]

It can only intercept Pirthvi missile, and will not be able to intercept Shaheen-II missile, bcoz it can change its trajectory several times during flight. And its rumored that pakistan aslo have MIRVed missiles, so u cant stop it even russia and USA have not any system to intercept to MIRV missile. And we have Babur Crise Missile, and there is no system in world to intercept that!!missile

Just one question. Are the warheads used in Shaheen-II maneuverable? We are talking about BM not CM. Babur is a CM and not a BM. And what do u mean by change in trajectory?

 

[Contrarian]

How is that changing the subject and an act of "spreading stupidity"? this is what you said, "Insofar i dont give a damn whether your word is as good as Gold". the statement above is a reply to your ignorance. you won't accept that Pakistan has longer ranged missiles than the Hatf 5 which is the Ghauri 1, of course because you're indian! you're the one who's trying to change the subject here, telling me to stay on subject isn't helping your argument.

I have already asked you to give proof of a test of a 2500km missile. There is none. There is a 2000km missile. That is established. You seem more keen to prove that there is a longer ranged missile in Pakistan's inventory than to prove your statement that BM's can and will be used for a massive strike on AFB's all over India.

did you even read the fcuking statement properly, you ignoramus? when you achieve a high precision with a ballistic missile, you can use it in warfare with conventional warheads. I've mentioned SCUD style attacks to make it simpler for you to understand, but your ignorance just gets the best of you doesn't it?

no one's trying to change the subject here. the more I read, I realize english probably isn't your first language is it? again, you're claiming here that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and that I'm avoiding the technical aspects of weapons systems.

By all means dont avoid the technical aspects. You started claiming and talking about Indian missiles and that Pakistani missiles are better. I did not bring in or start about any Indian missile. That is where you are deliberately trying to lead this discussion into-an Indo-Pak mine's bigger than yours.

You claimed that BM's will be used for a massive strike on AFB's. I refute that statement, it cannot and will not be used for that puropose.

Then you started talking that Cruise Missiles in Pakistan are for second strike capability through the subs. That is also completely wrong. I have elucidated the points. You are deliberately trying to change the direction of this discussion.

So far the only thing you've mentioned here is FRA (IFR) and "damned good range". again, telling me to stay on topic isn't helping. you can't resort to statements like that to make it seem that you are correct.

I have already explained what "damned good range" meant, and the significance of FRA. Incase you are incapable of understanding in a single go, i'l write it down again. Increased range of Su-30's as well as the presence of FRA's implies that aircrafts can be based from AFB's deep in India. For BM's to take them out, the deeper the plane is, more the number of missile it would take to even think about taking them out. This is because, to target the outermost AFB, every AFB before it in an arc will have to be attacked as well. That makes the numbers unfeasible.

youl fcking piece of sh!T. do you have any idea what you're talking about? do you know where babur cruise missile program origins are from? did it just magically appear overnight only for attacking bases? it can be used to attack bases, but it's purpose is for nuclear annihilation, the same purpose for which the Tomahawk LACM was developed for. it is to be mounted in the torpedo tubes of our subs, and give us the second strike capability we've been looking for, damn! you have no idea what you're talking about, do yourself a favor and let other people post for you.

I have already asked you to refrain from personal attacks. You seem incapable of this simple act as well.
The CM is not primarily meant for a nuclear strike. It is meant for a conventional payload, it is still though CAPABLE of carrying a nuclear warhead. It is indeed meant for attacking every node of interest. It is an LACM. For nuclear strike, BM's will be used, not CM. Again there are a multitude of reasons why BM will be used, not a CM.

Secondly, as of now, there is no sub in Pakistan's inventory in which Babur can be retrofit. It can only be fit in the U-214 which Pakistan may or maynot acquire. You DONT get second strike capability with an SSK. You get that with an SSN.

And after all this talk, you have STILL not refuted the points i stated, as to why a massive BM strike cannot be used for attacking AFB's.

 

[mean_bird]

The Southern And Eastern Most tip of India lies in Andaman and Nicobar Islands. I hope you got your answer.

And how many indians do you plan to squeeze in there? or how many planes can operate from there except the Su-30?

The point here mate, is not whether you have a limited or protracted war, but we are talking about the post by assad-ul-islaam about the use of BM"s by Pakistan for a massive strike on Indian AFB's.

We were not discussing about this. If you want to discuss this aspect you start another thread and we'l discuss it.

Talking about BM attack on AFB is rather a deviation from this topic. My reply is in line with the topic mentioned in the thread title.

Yes you do. India can afford it, thats the entire point. What many people dont think is that in return for a 100 PAF planes destroyed, IAF is even willing to expend 120 planes. It would still be a mission accomplished for IAF and a score for India.
Again though, this discussion can be carried elsewhere.

No it won't. Wars aren't planned in isolation of other factors. Besides, if 120 of india's frontline fighters are destroyed in return for 100 of PAF's, there would hardly be anything left to achieve the 'air supremecy'. Remember we have a force of 400+ and at of today, only a few Indian of indian fleet is capable of having deep strike mission from deep indian AFB.

IF things were as easy as you are trying to make them sound, a war would have already erupted.

Just one question. Are the warheads used in Shaheen-II maneuverable? We are talking about BM not CM. Babur is a CM and not a BM. And what do u mean by change in trajectory?

A missile defence system tracks an incoming missile, calculates its destination and the like path to follow and tries to intercept it. The shaheen-II missile deliberately changes its trajectory before coming back and getting aligned with its destination.

This means the MDS (missile defence system) cannot accurately predict its trajectory to intercept it as the shaheen missile randomly shift its path during flight.

 

[Contrarian]

It can only intercept Pirthvi missile, and will not be able to intercept Shaheen-II missile, bcoz it can change its trajectory several times during flight. And its rumored that pakistan aslo have MIRVed missiles, so u cant stop it even russia and USA have not any system to intercept to MIRV missile. And we have Babur Crise Missile, and there is no system in world to intercept that!!missile

Infact, it is much much easier to intercept a CM than a BM. Your completely wrong there.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

1.) Looks like the guidance system has failed miserably. We have completely moved from PAF and it's role in war planning by Indian Military strategist.

Infact, it is much much easier to intercept a CM than a BM. Your completely wrong there.

2.) That is a very generalized statment, IMHO. It depends on what kind of a missile defence system a country has. If the idea is to know and shoot down a BM in the first two stages of it's flight, they become sitting ducks ( I am using the phrase rather loosely here. Do not want to undermine the difficulty in implementing it in any way). Such systems are not proven but then again there is no proven system in the world at this point in time except what was used in the Gulf war. And I hope it stays that way. War is bad for everyone.

regards,
Anoop.

 

[Zob]

malaymishra...dude i just want to say learn to respect others on this forum ur writing is style is to provocative.... some people might lack knowledge on this forum but they too have the right to express there point of view...like u and i....instead of writing stuff like stop posting crap bla bla bla...just be politie...thanx

 

[Hasnain2009]

Infact, it is much much easier to intercept a CM than a BM. Your completely wrong there.

GIive me source!!

Babur (Urdu: بابر ; Babar means lion in the Turkic language Chaghatay; it is also suggested that the missile was named after the first Mughal Emperor Babur) is a subsonic land attack cruise missile, the first cruise missile to be developed by Pakistan.[1]

Babur is capable of carrying either conventional or nuclear warheads and has a reported range of 700 km (435 miles).[2] It can be fired from warships, submarines and aircraft. To avoid radar detection and penetrate through enemy air defense systems,[1][3] the missile uses its high degree of maneuverability to fly very low and "hug" the terrain. Serial production of Babur started in October 2005.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur_missile

No radar can detect it, so how would you intercept it!!