For Indian war planners, is the PAF their worst fear?

[Trisonics]

Some posters always say "Pakistan cannot match India's defence spending," but they never say "India cannot match China's defence spending."

Any emerging power needs to spend money in order to safe guard its economical assets. No wonder China and India fall into the same equation.

The Mumbai attacks have bought to light how insufficient (read incapable) India's intelligence gathering is. There is still a lot to be done but atleast one can see some sort of a drive this time at least. Having said that I should also point out the money spent on the police force, all of a sudden there is computer training, suspect data bases and computer forensics which was unheard of and police have started learning computers. All these are not to wage war against any country. India's military needs are changing by the day, if this means an arms race so be it.

The third point I wish to make is not to consider Pakistan and China as independent entities when it comes to war. Lets hope none of these countries see any war in the future but hypothetically if India went to war with any of these two, the other country may try and take advantage of the situation either covertly or openly! In the current scenario I don't think India can hold two countries off Militarily if there was a full fledged war, Diplomatically maybe Militarily very suspect.

 

[Contrarian]

Some posters always say "Pakistan cannot match India's defence spending," but they never say "India cannot match China's defence spending."

India doesnt really need to match China's defence spending. The terrain of the Indo-China border is such that large scale fighting is extremely difficult except in certain areas.

If the Indo-China border was plains,deserts or small mountains-the type with Pakistan, then India would definitely have had to match China's defence spending one way or another.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

India doesnt really need to match China's defence spending. The terrain of the Indo-China border is such that large scale fighting is extremely difficult except in certain areas.

If the Indo-China border was plains,deserts or small mountains-the type with Pakistan, then India would definitely have had to match China's defence spending one way or another.

i would'ev loved to agree with ur theory. Although i agree till the terrain part.
1. I wont buy the excuse of terrain for not matching chainese defence budget.
2. If i have the money and i am living next to my enemy i will use it 4 defence and try to match him.
3. The million dollar question is where are the long range strategic bombers (to solve the issue of terrain and prove that india is and can focus on china)

 

[Contrarian]

i would'ev loved to agree with ur theory. Although i agree till the terrain part.
1. I wont buy the excuse of terrain for not matching chainese defence budget.

It is a major part. The terrain simply does not allow use of large scale forces, tank warfare, etc.

2. If i have the money and i am living next to my enemy i will use it 4 defence and try to match him.

Yes, and in areas of AirForce and Navy. India is indeed trying to match China. IAF is set to get its sanctioned strength of 39.6 sqd's. New strike planes like MMRCA set to be inducted.

In Navy, IN is steadily building its resources. 2 Carriers are already under construction for India-One in Russia, one in India. You see the new generation of naval warships, LRSAM's for Navy. New MPA-P-8I, etc, etc. I do think you agree, all this is an overkill for PN!

After that India is ALSO slowly building its own string of bases all around Indian Ocean-Maldives, Madagascar, Iran, Oman, etc, etc.

3. The million dollar question is where are the long range strategic bombers (to solve the issue of terrain and prove that india is and can focus on china)

Nope. IAF simply does not need long range strategic bombers. Any kind of bombing can be acheived by use of BM's and CM's. You will ofcourse appreciate that missiles like Agni III, are simply NOT developed for Pakistan. The Agni III+, the ICBM further being developed with a range of 5000kms is ALSO not for Pakistan.

The Agni III missile and onwards are being developed SOLELY with China in mind.

The longer ranged BrahMos II also is being developed in anticipation of its use against China. A 300kms BrahMos 1 is good only against Pakistan.

Moreover Su-30's are in service. With 230 Su-30's to be inducted, thats not a small number.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

It is a major part. The terrain simply does not allow use of large scale forces, tank warfare, etc.


Yes, and in areas of AirForce and Navy. India is indeed trying to match China. IAF is set to get its sanctioned strength of 39.6 sqd's. New strike planes like MMRCA set to be inducted.

In Navy, IN is steadily building its resources. 2 Carriers are already under construction for India-One in Russia, one in India. You see the new generation of naval warships, LRSAM's for Navy. New MPA-P-8I, etc, etc. I do think you agree, all this is an overkill for PN!

After that India is ALSO slowly building its own string of bases all around Indian Ocean-Maldives, Madagascar, Iran, Oman, etc, etc.


Nope. IAF simply does not need long range strategic bombers. Any kind of bombing can be acheived by use of BM's and CM's. You will ofcourse appreciate that missiles like Agni III, are simply NOT developed for Pakistan. The Agni III+, the ICBM further being developed with a range of 5000kms is ALSO not for Pakistan.

The Agni III missile and onwards are being developed SOLELY with China in mind.

The longer ranged BrahMos II also is being developed in anticipation of its use against China. A 300kms BrahMos 1 is good only against Pakistan.

Moreover Su-30's are in service. With 230 Su-30's to be inducted, thats not a small number.

CBMs and BMs !!!

Any Professional Armed force will Resort to CBMs and BM once they dont have the required reach. But let me tell you CBM and BM is one of the most expensive ways to win a war. speacially for india (Indian CEP is still much more then 0.01 &#37. Dont fight a war against China with CBMs in your mind !!!.

the most alarming news is you think ANY KIND OF BOMBING CAN BE DONE THROuGH CBMs and BMs. Dont ever tell that to the strategic command of yours. (you will simply increase the cost of war for yourself)

Its good u consider a large number of Su-30s as strategic bombers, this can help china alot.

Before you declare that Su-30s can cater for the lack of strategic bombers in a Indo-China war please do consider the following points.

1. Payload compared to a strategic bomber

2. ROT ( can it meet that!)

3. and then tell me how many Su-30s will it take make a Mass raid. to take out a strategic target deep in side china?

The list can go on ...But hey .....Chill man!

 

[notorious_eagle]

Bro if you look at the short term, Indian Armed Forces are perfectly capable of defending their front against a Chinese onslaught. China is still a decade or two away from becaming a military superpower, they are still not as strong as their Western or Russian counterparts. Indians like to buy all their military hardware from foriegn sources while the Chinese prefer to build them at home. Its because of this India will have a short term advantage because of MKI's or F18 Super Hornets with their awesome weapons package. But in the long term they will be at a disadvantage because the way the Chinese military industry is growing with their next generation fighter aircraft project, stealth bombers, destroyers, frigates, submarines, tanks etc. It would be really hard for India to compete with them, Indians will soon realize that its better to build your own domestic industry rather than buying it abroad.

 

[Contrarian]

CBMs and BMs !!!

Any Professional Armed force will Resort to CBMs and BM once they dont have the required reach. But let me tell you CBM and BM is one of the most expensive ways to win a war. speacially for india (Indian CEP is still much more then 0.01 %). Dont fight a war against China with CBMs in your mind !!!.

the most alarming news is you think ANY KIND OF BOMBING CAN BE DONE THROuGH CBMs and BMs. Dont ever tell that to the strategic command of yours. (you will simply increase the cost of war for yourself)

Dude, nodes of importance are targetted by CM"s and BM's. Not mass bombing.

Its good u consider a large number of Su-30s as strategic bombers, this can help china alot.

Before you declare that Su-30s can cater for the lack of strategic bombers in a Indo-China war please do consider the following points.

1. Payload compared to a strategic bomber

2. ROT ( can it meet that!)

3. and then tell me how many Su-30s will it take make a Mass raid. to take out a strategic target deep in side china?

I am NOT substituting a Su-30 for a strategic bomber. I am saying that for the objectives of India, the Su-30 has sufficient payload to deliver where it is needed. A strategic bomber is NOT needed by India. Else getting them is not really an issue, Russia can easily supply them.

Neither India nor China have the military to go deep inside each others landmass. Its not feasible. At best, territory can be taken in the NorthEast and the Northwest. For those purposes, what India is doing is sufficient.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Dude, nodes of importance are targetted by CM"s and BM's. Not mass bombing..

this is your former post !!!

Nope. IAF simply does not need long range strategic bombers. Any kind of bombing can be acheived by use of BM's and CM's.

By the way Even Nodes of cant be neutralized with a CEP greater then 0.01% that easily.
Imgine for every 100 Km that your missile cover its circular error of probability increases by more then 1 meter !!!! This means you have to calculate how many missiles it would take to hit it hard !!! it takes more then you think right now , CBMs and BMs are more of a pyscological threat !!!! then a destructive one

 

[anoopsaxena76]

.

The longer ranged BrahMos II also is being developed in anticipation of its use against China. A 300kms BrahMos 1 is good only against Pakistan.

Hi,
Why is Brahmos II being developed in anticipation of its use against China? I mean how do we propose to use it? I do disagree with you here but I could be wrong. Just wanted to know if that is something for a fact or if it is your opinion?

Brahmos is not yet successful in the AF version. And I do not think it would have too much of a role in the terrain you mentioned with the Army. The only successful (and typically most cruise missiles are ship/sub launched ) version therefore operable, IMHO, is the naval version. And I truly wonder where will the Chinese Navy and the Indian Navy face off? Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal is too far off for China, and China sea / Pacific Ocean would be a graveyard for Indian Navy.

2.) Why would the strategic bombers not needed? India does have a large (actually small but I say large because not very many countries have strategic bombers even in those numbers that India has) number of strategic bombers.

Thanks and regards,
Anoop.

 

[nitesh]

Hi,
Why is Brahmos II being developed in anticipation of its use against China? I mean how do we propose to use it? I do disagree with you here but I could be wrong. Just wanted to know if that is something for a fact or if it is your opinion?

He is right in his saying. BrahMos II is basically a hypersonic version of the BrahMos the engine is already tested at mach 5.26 in labs. And as it is developed in India there is no restriction of MTCR. Hence it can have long range. Hope this clarifies.

Brahmos is not yet successful in the AF version. And I do not think it would have too much of a role in the terrain you mentioned with the Army. The only successful (and typically most cruise missiles are ship/sub launched ) version therefore operable, IMHO, is the naval version. And I truly wonder where will the Chinese Navy and the Indian Navy face off? Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal is too far off for China, and China sea / Pacific Ocean would be a graveyard for Indian Navy.

You are worng here. How you can declare a version un successful even before testing it? 2 MKI are in Russia for structural changes so that they can fire air launched BrahMos. Army has already ordered 66 Block 1 version. The latest test of new version with improved version is successful (as of now but let's wait for final confirmation) When exactly BrahMos launched from sub?

And what a greatest conclusion grave yard for IN care to explain how?

2.) Why would the strategic bombers not needed? India does have a large (actually small but I say large because not very many countries have strategic bombers even in those numbers that India has) number of strategic bombers.

What is the purpose served by strategic bomber?
Thanks and regards,
Anoop.[/QUOTE]

 

[Zob]

ok i don't know how this conversation has drifted into a BRAGMOS thread....but ohh well...see it is only a matter of time before the ramjet technology....so ur BRAGMOS can be countered...so please let's just come back to the real topic of air superirioty u indians r getting boring coming here bragging about ur SU30s and LCAs and BRAGMOS.....

 

[anoopsaxena76]

First of all I apologize for digressing from the topic I myself had raised it twice in this thread and I am guilty of doing it now. But since it follows logically on Brahmos talk, I continue. But if any moderator feels I should stop, please do let me know.

He is right in his saying. BrahMos II is basically a hypersonic version of the BrahMos the engine is already tested at mach 5.26 in labs. And as it is developed in India there is no restriction of MTCR. Hence it can have long range. Hope this clarifies.

Okay so we have made Brahmos hypersonic with Brahmos II.
1.) How does it change anything vis-a-vis China?
2.) How does MTCR come into picture?
3.) I have not heard anything about it's range increase so far. But I admit, I can be wrong if there is any consideration for it's range increase. If I am please do let me know the source.

You are worng here. How you can declare a version un successful even before testing it?

I never said it is unsuccessful (or meaning that it is a failure). I only said it is not yet successful in the AF version. If and when it will be successful, I shall definitely call it successful. But till then we can not include the possibility of Brahmos II being included in a war scenario with an IAF plane carrying it. That is all I wanted to say.

2 MKI are in Russia for structural changes so that they can fire air launched BrahMos.

How does that matter? It is required for testing purposes. We had our own AWACS too and the plane crashed. I do want to say, that I am not calling Brahmos II (AF version) a failure. All I am saying is that the defence experts will not take it into consideration in a war scenario, "at this point in time". In the future? We shall have to wait and see.

When exactly BrahMos launched from sub?

When did I say Brahmos was launched from a sub? I only mentioned as a remark that most cruise missiles are launched from a ship or a sub. BTW, here I might add that, in my personal opinion, Brahmos which is based on Onik / Yakhont, should have no problem getting fired from a Sub.

And what a greatest conclusion grave yard for IN care to explain how?

I think I need to apologize here for not being very clear. I had meant that Chinese Navy fighting a war in Indian Ocean (near Indian bases) would be a grave yard for them and likewise Indian Navy fighting a war in China sea (near China bases) would be a grave yard for IN. Now if you do not agree with this statement and still want me to give an explanation please do let me know.

What is the purpose served by strategic bomber?

Do you mean, in the context of a war with China or in General?

Thanks and regards,
Anoop.

 

[nitesh]

First of all I apologize for digressing from the topic I myself had raised it twice in this thread and I am guilty of doing it now. But since it follows logically on Brahmos talk, I continue. But if any moderator feels I should stop, please do let me know.

yes we are getting off topic

Okay so we have made Brahmos hypersonic with Brahmos II.
1.) How does it change anything vis-a-vis China?
2.) How does MTCR come into picture?
3.) I have not heard anything about it's range increase so far. But I admit, I can be wrong if there is any consideration for it's range increase. If I am please do let me know the source.

BrahMos II is getting developed in india it's engine has been tested in India http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...on-brahmos-undergoes-successful-lab-test.html
Now if the things are Indian the MTCR does not comes in to picture and do we have only one missile? Check about Shourya.

I never said it is unsuccessful (or meaning that it is a failure). I only said it is not yet successful in the AF version. If and when it will be successful, I shall definitely call it successful. But till then we can not include the possibility of Brahmos II being included in a war scenario with an IAF plane carrying it. That is all I wanted to say.

If there is no test conducted then it is futile to even ask it successful or unsuccessful isn't it? Simple the weapon is not there. No speculations please.

How does that matter? It is required for testing purposes. We had our own AWACS too and the plane crashed. I do want to say, that I am not calling Brahmos II (AF version) a failure. All I am saying is that the defence experts will not take it into consideration in a war scenario, "at this point in time". In the future? We shall have to wait and see.

Don't mix up things and start speculating. The weapon has not even developed and you sarted saying it is successful or unsuccessful without any fact useless thing to discuss

When did I say Brahmos was launched from a sub? I only mentioned as a remark that most cruise missiles are launched from a ship or a sub. BTW, here I might add that, in my personal opinion, Brahmos which is based on Onik / Yakhont, should have no problem getting fired from a Sub.

But it is not tested yet so it is fultile to call it success or not successful right?

I think I need to apologize here for not being very clear. I had meant that Chinese Navy fighting a war in Indian Ocean (near Indian bases) would be a grave yard for them and likewise Indian Navy fighting a war in China sea (near China bases) would be a grave yard for IN. Now if you do not agree with this statement and still want me to give an explanation please do let me know.

The reason I am against the graveyard word is that it is too simplistic to put Navy will not go alone there or vice versa will have Air force support or carrier naval wing with lot of AAW and ASW assets to simplisitc to give a sweeping state ment. Hope you understand my point.

Do you mean, in the context of a war with China or in General?

Thanks and regards,
Anoop.

I mean how a strategic bomber fits in to IAF/IN doctrine.

 

[UchihaCG]

ok i don't know how this conversation has drifted into a BRAGMOS thread....but ohh well...see it is only a matter of time before the ramjet technology....so ur BRAGMOS can be countered

What did Kayani tell you that Pakistan can counter it ?

u indians r getting boring coming here bragging about ur SU30s and LCAs and BRAGMOS.....

What I guess SU-30s and LCA doesn't involve "Air Superiority" according to genius here.

 

[hj786]

What I guess SU-30s and LCA doesn't involve "Air Superiority" according to genius here.

Not over Pakistan or China, kid.