Finally RAFALE are going to be here

[C130]

this is a clusterf*** which seems to be the norm for India defense acquisitions.


might as well just drop the deal and negotiate for 2 years for the F-35 and buy 126 in 2018/2019, start receiving them in 2020


assuming the price drops to $80 million in 2019 +$5 million for the engine that's $85 million flyaway cost... including weapons/service I would say it would be $180 million to $200 million per F-35

so at the high end that's a $25 billion dollar deal. then with a 50% offset that $12.5 billion, not bad considering what you will be paying for just 36 Rafale right now and how how much another 90 would cost.

all the bugs should be ironed out by then as well, so isn't like you'll buying gimped F-35 like the ones we got at a premium.

 

[Abingdonboy]

this is a clusterf*** which seems to be the norm for India defense acquisitions.


might as well just drop the deal and negotiate for 2 years for the F-35 and buy 126 in 2018/2019, start receiving them in 2020


assuming the price drops to $80 million in 2019 +$5 million for the engine that's $85 million flyaway cost... including weapons/service I would say it would be $180 million to $200 million per F-35

so at the high end that's a $25 billion dollar deal. then with a 50% offset that $12.5 billion, not bad considering what you will be paying for just 36 Rafale right now and how how much another 90 would cost.

all the bugs should be ironed out by then as well, so isn't like you'll buying gimped F-35 like the ones we got at a premium.

Why would India want the F-35? They already have the FGFA and AMCA under development adding a third 5th gen fighter with questionable abilities, no hope of ToT,no chance of made in India production line etc is in no way attractive for the IAF's future and present day requirements.

The Rafale is the best product in the table for the IAF for its own requirements and plans.

 

[C130]

Why would India want the F-35? They already have the FGFA and AMCA under development adding a third 5th gen fighter with questionable abilities, no hope of ToT,no chance of made in India production line etc is in no way attractive for the IAF's future and present day requirements.

The Rafale is the best product in the table for the IAF for its own requirements and plans.

no guarantee that FGFA or AMCA will bear fruit.


FGFA is stumbling out the gate and AMCA is still on the drawing board.

 

[Abingdonboy]

no guarantee that FGFA or AMCA will bear fruit.


FGFA is stumbling out the gate and AMCA is still on the drawing board.

The FGFA and AMCA are being funded by the GoI, they may be risky prospects but the sunk costs are present. Looking to induct a 3rd 5th gen fighter is entirely pointless as it stands today. The IAF isn't throwing money at the FGFA or AMCA expecting them to fail.


Proposing th F-35 as a replacement to th MMRCA(Rafale) is rather nomsensical with all due respect. The entire point of the MMRCA is to replace the strike assets in the IAF (Mig27 and Jaguars) that will offer high availability and low operational costs. The F-35 just doesn't fit the bill.


Furthermore with ZERO hope for ToT and an Indian production line the F-35 doesn't stand a chance in the Indian market.

 

[C130]

The FGFA and AMCA are being funded by the GoI, they may be risky prospects but the sunk costs are present. Looking to induct a 3rd 5th gen fighter is entirely pointless as it stands today. The IAF isn't throwing money at the FGFA or AMCA expecting them to fail.


Proposing th F-35 as a replacement to th MMRCA(Rafale) is rather nomsensical with all due respect. The entire point of the MMRCA is to replace the strike assets in the IAF (Mig27 and Jaguars) that will offer high availability and low operational costs. The F-35 just doesn't fit the bill.


Furthermore with ZERO hope for ToT and an Indian production line the F-35 doesn't stand a chance in the Indian market.

Russia and India are cutting back on R&D and orders of the Pak-FA. that tells me tthat neither have faith in the program.


F-35 isn't that much more expensive to operate than the Rafale.


we can't say 100% there would be no ToT or production of F-35 in India. things can change in a heartbeat.

I think it would come down to how many F-35s India are willing to buy!! if more than 200 I would say production in India would be possible (not the whole aircraft) as for ToT I can see some ToT but not as much as France and Russia would give.

if India wants be a superpower then it's going to need spend and rely on it's youth to develop what U.S,West,Russia, and China have.

can't rely on ToT for everything.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Russia and India are cutting back on R&D and orders of the Pak-FA. that tells me tthat neither have faith in the program.


F-35 isn't that much more expensive to operate than the Rafale.


we can't say 100% there would be no ToT or production of F-35 in India. things can change in a heartbeat.

I think it would come down to how many F-35s India are willing to buy!! if more than 200 I would say production in India would be possible (not the whole aircraft) as for ToT I can see some ToT but not as much as France and Russia would give.

if India wants be a superpower then it's going to need spend and rely on it's youth to develop what U.S,West,Russia, and China have.

can't rely on ToT for everything.

No one knows the life cycle costs of the F-35 nor will I trust any source as LM has consistently lied on this matter but i can be sure the Rafale will be far superior in this regard.

2) the FGFA phase-2 contract will be signed in the next few weeks. India is fully committed to it.

3) it's not merely a matter of ToT but that the US OEMs wont tie up with Indian private sector for production units and that India isn't willing to sign the restrictive end user agreements the US is demanding.

4) the F-35 doesn't fit into the IAF at all.


I'll say it again, US fighters have ZERO chance in the Indian ,after now.

 

[C130]

No one knows the life cycle costs of the F-35 nor will I trust any source as LM has consistently lied on this matter but i can be sure the Rafale will be far superior in this regard.

2) the FGFA phase-2 contract will be signed in the next few weeks. India is fully committed to it.

3) it's not merely a matter of ToT but that the US OEMs wont tie up with Indian private sector for production units and that India isn't willing to sign the restrictive end user agreements the US is demanding.

4) the F-35 doesn't fit into the IAF at all.


I'll say it again, US fighters have ZERO chance in the Indian ,after now.

I would bet F-35 life cycle cost is the same or little more than the F-15C

I never said India was abandoning the FGFA but India and Russia have cut back funding and overall planes they will buy, that's a fact

India wouldn't get any pie in production out of the F-35 at first buy later down the road I can see it happening. India needs to be patient you won't be a superpower by 2030.

F-35 does fit IMO especially F-35C on your aircraft carrier


I wouldn't say zero chance, either way India will continue to delay purchase and development of Rafale,FGFA,LCA, and AMCA.

while Pakistan just continues to buy from China.

 

[Hulk]

100% sure. The ACM's flight in the Gripen was MEANINGLESS, the itinerary is decided by the hosts, the swedes chose to take the ACM on a joyride on the Gripen. They are still pushing hard for the Gripen in the IAF but the IAF and Mod aren't interested anymore, they are fully behind the LCA.


He is playing games trying to extract minuscule political capital when he proclaims "I got a good deal for India" with this deal. He is now cribbing over a few million here and there whilst the IAF's planes are literally falling out of the skies and their rivals are inducting SQN are SQN year after year of new fighters.

The premature BJP tweet said it all, Parrikar is fixated on getting what will be perceived as a "good deal" for India. Scr*w the IAF.

Why did he go in first place?

 

[Abingdonboy]

I would bet F-35 life cycle cost is the same or little more than the F-15C

.

Absolutely no way of knowing this but I can't see how that would be possible with the advanced skin that requires extensive treatment after each flight.

I never said India was abandoning the FGFA but India and Russia have cut back funding and overall planes they will buy, that's a fact
.

This actually isn't a fact. India hasn't wavered in its commitment and Russia has just pushed back its induction cycle as it develops e the platform further.

I

India wouldn't get any pie in production out of the F-35 at first buy later down the road I can see it happening. India needs to be patient you won't be a superpower by 2030.
.

Ifs and buts, considering how the US has treated India thus far I don't see any reason to be optimistic. India isn't a tier one partner in the F-35 and won't see much benefit in entering the F-35 project now it is almost fully developed. As for a production line of its own subsidiary issues will remain. Unlike the French or russians the US OEMs are not willing to partner with Indian private firms and this is unacceptable to Indja.

.

F-35 does fit IMO especially F-35C on your aircraft carrier

.

The Rafale-M and N-AMCA will do the job just fine buddy.

.

while Pakistan just continues to buy from China.

This is why the Rafale, LCA, FGFA and AMCA are being pursued aggressively under this government. The simplest solution is the easiest. Opening up new talks with the US at this point will not solve anything at all. The US-Indo ties have consistently been a let down and moved at glacial pace. The Rafale is needed now, the IAF can't afford to wait a decade for the F-35 nor do they want it.
]

Why did he go in first place?

A goodwill visit, the service chiefs visit foreign countries all the time, a few weeks back he was in Israel and the COAS was in Japan. It is meaningless in terms of decision making.

 

[dadeechi]

You were surely not talking of MII deal 11 days back.

Nope I am talking about the RAFALE MII deal not the 36 offshelf.

Read what I said. I did not say "I was". I said "I am"

The OP was obviously for the 36 but the deal is tied to the MII component which is causing the delay in closing the deal for the 36.

Rafale deal can not be smaller than 36 and that's what was supposed to be signed. You are now just doing a face saving exercise.

I never said the deal would be smaller than 36. I was referring to the MII component.

 

[kaykay]

Perriker is turning out to be a big disappointment..... Just talk talk and more talks and no action on ground.

 

[cranwerkhan]

"finally rafael are going to be here" next thread.. " almost here few days more" .. next thread " almosttttt done" ..... i was teenager hearing this all now i have kids...

 

[ultron]

It is shameful for India to buy from France. India has 1200 million people. France has 60 million people. India should make its own planes.

 

[dadeechi]

It is shameful for India to buy from France. India has 1200 million people. France has 60 million people. India should make its own planes.

Hindu philosophy says that one should rid oneself of all emotions (including shame) to attain nirvana.

 

[Blue Marlin]

where is the light at the end of the tunnel ?
i am now thinking of using ist (indian standard time) as a measurement of time
can some one tell me when it started so i can measure the differance from the start to when it will finish.
and from then on i will use that?