Fierce gun fight rages in Kashmir

[vkurian]

In fact just the other day Indian Foreign Secretary Menon said something imbecilic along the lines of 'talks resuming only after Pakistan stops calling Kashmir a territorial dispute or change in status'.

The lack of dialog has been a roadblock put up by India from the days of Nehru. If you go through the UN resolutions thread and read his quotes I posted, he quite clearly followed a duplicitous policy on Kashmir, of 'showing one face to the world' and never intending to follow up on India's commitments to hold a plebiscite in practice.

That policy it appears is being followed by the current GoI as well. Steve Coll revealed that back channel negotiations on Kashmir had progressed considerably, but India called off the negotiations before they could be concluded.

Now the statement from the foreign secretary indicates a complete 180 - IMO the back-channel diplomacy was merely India up to its usual Nehruvian gimmickry and duplicity - negotiate to buy/waste time, and then walk away without concluding anything.

This attitude and refusal to sincerely engage in a diplomatic resolution of Kashmir is what led to Pakistan supporting interventionist policies in Kashmir, and to that end I still see no desire on the part of the GoI to move on Kashmir.

@AM what you are saying is if Indians don't talk you on Kashmir you will send terrorist across.

The logic was some what same when you sent terrorist into Afghanistan to fight the soviets and today the same network is boomeranging on you. I don't understand why you have to make cannon fodder of your youth to prove a point to the world. These guys with good education could have been leading nice happy lives somewhere in Pakistan.

Does any one cry for them or spare a thought for them. They are like sheep’s raised for slaughter. Do the children of high ranking army and civilian officials take part in such activity on the contrary they would be heading to cool climes of the world in pursuit of better education and jobs. Was it not the case with Ajmal Kasab......all he wanted was a good life?

We as two countries can agree to disagree but why pay such a huge human cost? Precious lives lost on both sides of the border.

Trust me friends if you stay of Kashmir their will be no problems in Kashmir and their will be peace on both side of the border. India should take all steps to assure Pakistan that it is not involved in any terrorist activity in Pakistan. Mutual trust and respect for each other is the only way forward.

 

[vkurian]

From what I have gathered through viewing all the pictures I could find about the incident, the captured arms and ammunition does not look like it came from 24 bodies...I think numbers are being exaggerated here because Indian security forces took a heavy beating in Kashmir at the hands of Mujahideen as once again dialogue and diplomacy has taken a back seat and people's voices are being ignored by the Indian government and as others have stated the only option left to show discontent is usually through armed ''PR stunts''.

PS - The funeral service for the Indian soldier killed is a clever photo op. He just happened to be a local, not because Kashmiri's support the Indian occupation...where are the other coffins then?

At least let us be dignified in someones death...and not call it a photo op.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@AM what you are saying is if Indians don't talk you on Kashmir you will send terrorist across.

The logic was some what same when you sent terrorist into Afghanistan to fight the soviets ...

A struggle for freedom from occupation is not terrorism, Pakistan has not been supporting cross border infiltration since 2002, and it wasn't just Pakistan supporting the Afghans from Soviet occupation.

Secondly, all this is a bit rich coming from an Indian, since India supported 'terrorists' (your word) in East Pakistan to destabilize it and then intervened militarily to break it off.

Does any one cry for them or spare a thought for them.

Since you are lamenting the lives of innocent souls, how about lamenting the denial of a plebiscite agreed to by the GoI for the Kashmiris to determine their future status.

If its the peoples lives and rights that are of paramount importance, then a plebisicte should be axiomatic.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

From what I have gathered through viewing all the pictures I could find about the incident, the captured arms and ammunition does not look like it came from 24 bodies...I think numbers are being exaggerated here because Indian security forces took a heavy beating in Kashmir at the hands of Mujahideen as once again dialogue and diplomacy has taken a back seat and people's voices are being ignored by the Indian government and as others have stated the only option left to show discontent is usually through armed ''PR stunts''.

PS - The funeral service for the Indian soldier killed is a clever photo op. He just happened to be a local, not because Kashmiri's support the Indian occupation...where are the other coffins then?

I think its 17 militants and 8 Indian soldiers.

Weapons from killed IA soldiers would not be displayed I imagine.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

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[ANDUBYLL]

well i talked about kashmir and kashmiri ppl also live on our side of LoC. and about other pakistanis going to IoK for fighting against ur troops, i will never deny that. u lik it or not but its our(muslims) nature to help muslims who are being killed or opressed in any part of the world. iraq and afghanistan are few examples where there are more foreign muslims fighting than locals. im tellin u a fact so plz dont take it personally. again ill say as i have said in other places that there is a difference in jihad and terrorism so dont think i support wat happened in mumbai.
no one has proof about pak providing weapons to these ppl so lets not get into that

Fair enough assesement and realistic as well. LET supports the jehad in Kashmir and they can get an united nation coliation of muslims to support its cause.
However the Pakistan army is not a mute spectator to all this. Its very hard to support the insurgency with money and personnel, cross the LOC without the active support of the Pakistan army or its military and or political establishment.
No, I am not going to 100% say that Pakistan is responsible for arming these ppl, as you have pointed out, that there is no proof of such !!
However , lets be clear , militancy does not and cannot solve the Kashmir problem, rather it makes it worse and makes LET , not freedom fighters but terrorists in the eyes of the world.
Kashmir wont change in a 1000 years. There is nothing in the nature of Indians that I can see , that will make them concede territory.
However, incidence likes this will only make them redouble their efforts to destabilise Pakistan in Balochistan and FATA.
Pakistan IMHO, should concentrate their efforts in solving insurgency in its territories. All this Kashmiri insurgency will do is to harden the resolve of world community against Pakistan.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

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[vkurian]

If its the peoples lives and rights that are of paramount importance, then a plebisicte should be axiomatic.

All countries have problems with some or the other region but it doest mean plebiscite and separation. Such problems have to be solved within the framework of constitution taking the aspirations of the people from that region. I suggest the same with Baluchistan too.

One should not have double standards when Lanka army kills Tamil rebels demanding a separate state you support the Sri Lankan army...rightly so. In case of Kashmir it is occupation......strange.

We all look at issues from our on standpoint and what is our stake in it. Be it India, Pakistan or any other country we describe our position by different names to suit our own convenience.

I understand the 71 itch and Kashmir is your answer to that but when you think about it Bangladesh was so far and culturally so diverse that this had to happen some point in time. Why I say this is regions like FATA you never had any control till two years back in this light controlling Bangladesh from Islamabad would have been a tall ask.

No progress can be made if we don’t step out of the past and look into future. We owe it to the next generation of ours.

 

[spsk]

^The world community is not so keen in siding with India on every issue, especially Kashmir. They know it's a flashpoint and that is why they suggest dialogue...something India is in no mood of undertaking at this point in time.

Yes World will not support India if Kashmir issue is taken to UN , India will not take this to UN and will not allow any third country to interfere . We know how we suffered by the mistake Nehru did after the "Kashmir" war was over.

But how can you say India is not in the mood to solve the issue ? What about the kargil war which stopped our peace initiative? What about parliament attack (Atleat for parliament attack please don't say RAW joined hands with CIA to kill Indian Prime minister )
May be India alone cannot be blamed...

 

[ajpirzada]

Fair enough assesement and realistic as well. LET supports the jehad in Kashmir and they can get an united nation coliation of muslims to support its cause.
However the Pakistan army is not a mute spectator to all this. Its very hard to support the insurgency with money and personnel, cross the LOC without the active support of the Pakistan army or its military and or political establishment.
No, I am not going to 100% say that Pakistan is responsible for arming these ppl, as you have pointed out, that there is no proof of such !!
However , lets be clear , militancy does not and cannot solve the Kashmir problem, rather it makes it worse and makes LET , not freedom fighters but terrorists in the eyes of the world.
Kashmir wont change in a 1000 years. There is nothing in the nature of Indians that I can see , that will make them concede territory.
However, incidence likes this will only make them redouble their efforts to destabilise Pakistan in Balochistan and FATA.
Pakistan IMHO, should concentrate their efforts in solving insurgency in its territories. All this Kashmiri insurgency will do is to harden the resolve of world community against Pakistan.

there are many solutions available for this problem. one of them for eg could be joint control. lik u mentioned indian nature same can be said about pakistanis who think kashmir should have become part of pakistan or atleast kashmiris should have been given a right to choose lik wat is said in UN resolution. the point being this issue has to be solved one way or the other and cannot be put on back seat.
wat u r assuming about pak army providing weapons to these ppl, i wont agree with u after looking at the pics posted in this thread. u can get this weapon from anywhere. however i might agree with you and say that there could be a possibility of pak army turning a blind eye to them, when they cross over to IoK, during such times when diplomatic efforts are not underway or come to a dead end.
also world is not against pakistan bec of insurgency in kashmir but bec they are loosing in afghanistan and want pakistan to do more. world however supports us on kashmir to an extent that this issue needs to be resolved and cannot be dropped from indo-pak equation.
LeT is called a terrorist outfit not bec of its activities in kashmir but bec of its suspected involvement in other terrorist activites lik mumbai attacks in which innocent civilians become the target.

 

[Gabbar]

Kashmiri relatives of Indian Army soldier Shabir Ahmed Malik mourn during his funeral procession in Dab, some 35 kilometers (22 miles) Northeast of Srinagar, India, Tuesday, March 24, 2009. Malik was killed in an ongoing battle which has claimed seven other army soldiers and sixteen suspected rebels, Lt Col. J.S. Brar of the Indian Army said.
(AP Photo/Dar Yasin)



An Indian army soldier stands guard during the funeral of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier from the Indian army, in Dab, 35km (21 miles) north of Srinagar March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed after four days of gun fighting between Indian soldiers and Muslim militants in disputed Kashmir near the Pakistan border, the army said on Monday. Four soldiers including Malik and five militants were killed on Monday alone, the army said, the highest number of people killed in a single firefight between Muslim militants and Indian troops in the Himalayan region in the past year. REUTERS/Fayaz Kabli
(INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR CONFLICT POLITICS MILITARY)


People gather for the funeral of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier from the Indian army, in Dab, 35km (21 miles) north of Srinagar March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed after four days of gun fighting between Indian soldiers and Muslim militants in disputed Kashmir near the Pakistan border, the army said on Monday. Four soldiers including Malik and five militants were killed on Monday alone, the army said, the highest number of people killed in a single firefight between Muslim militants and Indian troops in the Himalayan region in the past year. REUTERS/Fayaz Kabli
(INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR CONFLICT POLITICS MILITARY)

 

[Gabbar]

People carry the coffin of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier of the Indian army, in Dab, 35 kilometers north of Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed as the gunfight between Indian troops and militants in frontier district of Kupwara, close to the Line of Control in Indian-controlled Kashmir entered the fifth day. (Xinhua/Javed Dar)

People carry a coffin containing the body of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier of the Indian army, in Dab, 35 kilometers north of Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed as the gunfight between Indian troops and militants in frontier district of Kupwara, close to the Line of Control in Indian-controlled Kashmir entered the fifth day. (Xinhua/Javed Dar)

Indian army soldiers prepare to fire into the air during the funeral of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier of the Indian army, in Dab, 35 kilometers north of Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed as the gunfight between Indian troops and militants in frontier district of Kupwara, close to the Line of Control in Indian-controlled Kashmir entered the fifth day. (Xinhua/Javed Dar)

People offer funeral prayers during the funeral of Shabir Ahmad Malik, a Kashmiri Muslim soldier of the Indian army, in Dab, 35 kilometers north of Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-controlled Kashmir, March 24, 2009. At least 19 people have been killed as the gunfight between Indian troops and militants in frontier district of Kupwara, close to the Line of Control in Indian-controlled Kashmir entered the fifth day. (Xinhua/Javed Dar)

Funeral of Kashmiri gunfight victim arouses public soreness _English_Xinhua

 

[Proud2Indian]

kashmir is a disputed territory and not part of india or pakistan. so u cant compare it with balochistan or rajistan. secondly ppl fighting in kashmir are not considered terrorists even by UN.
and pakistan says this openly that we provide moral and political support to freedom fighters in kashmir.
those loyal troops are not mostly muslims lik you said but yes there are muslim troops as well.
i also agree gunfights wont solve the problem but when diplomatic channels are closed then thats the only thing ull see.

Then pls don't expect India to move out of Afganistan.....Disputed or not.....Don't talk about dispute when Pakistan was the initial aggresor.....As I have written elewhere...Indian govt will not talk under duress....And people of Kashmir has voted...they have understood the terrorism will cause them dear as there main source of income is turisom.....and terrorism has left them with no source of income.....nothing speaks like money

tx

 

[Proud2Indian]

In fact just the other day Indian Foreign Secretary Menon said something imbecilic along the lines of 'talks resuming only after Pakistan stops calling Kashmir a territorial dispute or change in status'.

The lack of dialog has been a roadblock put up by India from the days of Nehru. If you go through the UN resolutions thread and read his quotes I posted, he quite clearly followed a duplicitous policy on Kashmir, of 'showing one face to the world' and never intending to follow up on India's commitments to hold a plebiscite in practice.

That policy it appears is being followed by the current GoI as well. Steve Coll revealed that back channel negotiations on Kashmir had progressed considerably, but India called off the negotiations before they could be concluded.

Now the statement from the foreign secretary indicates a complete 180 - IMO the back-channel diplomacy was merely India up to its usual Nehruvian gimmickry and duplicity - negotiate to buy/waste time, and then walk away without concluding anything.

This attitude and refusal to sincerely engage in a diplomatic resolution of Kashmir is what led to Pakistan supporting interventionist policies in Kashmir, and to that end I still see no desire on the part of the GoI to move on Kashmir.

Don't take moral highground AM...Its Pakistan who first infliterated Kashmir.....if they have not stated all this....Kashmit might have been free today....

As for desire of GOI....we have seen 25 years of terrorism...we have seen ur official claiming to "bleed India by 1000 cuts"....don't expect anything less in return is what I can say in civilized term....Is better for Paksitan to understand that post 911 world has changes its views ..... previouly thing condidered right are considered wrond and vice-versa....


tx

 

[Proud2Indian]

well i talked about kashmir and kashmiri ppl also live on our side of LoC. and about other pakistanis going to IoK for fighting against ur troops, i will never deny that. u lik it or not but its our(muslims) nature to help muslims who are being killed or opressed in any part of the world. iraq and afghanistan are few examples where there are more foreign muslims fighting than locals. im tellin u a fact so plz dont take it personally. again ill say as i have said in other places that there is a difference in jihad and terrorism so dont think i support wat happened in mumbai.
no one has proof about pak providing weapons to these ppl so lets not get into that

Ok...and nobody has proof for India doing any wrongdoing in Afganistan...do you agree.....


tx