Fatal crash highlights the Chinese Air Force's flaws - 3 Dead

[serenity]

You cannot say we hide all problems. You need to prove that is true. I can also say we do not hide a single problem. Who is right? You assume we hide all problems but these crashes are hard to hide and really there is rarely reason for hiding. I remember at least three J-10 crash and several J-15 crash and Jh-7. Some lost pilots and media in China is completely write about it and even suggest faults with manufacturer and navy or airforce. Anyway that is theory talk.

Reality is China's government of course will hide if suits them. But this is true for every government so why anyone treat China different? That's the real what about. You cannot say China government is bad because it hides. Then of course we will say well why does USA government hide? Why does Russia government cover up? And Pakistan and India? All hiding stuff? How come then those governments are not bad? This is why we ask what about you? You all hate China because of certain true or untrue crimes when you say it's government or whatever but you are all guilty of same things more or less. It's just a double standard. Anyway did the government attempt to hide this? Okay it's obvious witnessed but you have no proof that government will hide it if not. Only your word suggesting that and some people here believe in God. Such grand lies.

We are not questioning the source. We are saying it's saying there are major flaws without saying what flaws and providing us some more details. So basically it is aiming for some cheap view and generate mass controversy. If the article says what flaws they mean and explains how they are exist, then it will be different. Otherwise it is unfortunate accident not 100% directly only due to fault of government or people or country. But some people want to make a link and say you see this is 100% only fault of the government, or the training, or the country, or the people. This is what we are against.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

this will improve china's rediness. wars are coming. with each mistake they will learn and make chinese combat capability better when actual war comes. 1 or 2 deaths in peace time is better than 1000 deaths in battlefield because u didn't know what could go wrong.

jia you!

 

[serenity]

this will improve china's rediness. wars are coming. with each mistake they will learn and make chinese combat capability better when actual war comes. 1 or 2 deaths in peace time is better than 1000 deaths in battlefield because u didn't know what could go wrong.

jia you!

No these are very wasteful and unfortunate. I can understand what you mean. It is good to train hard and often and in the past many have gone because of hard training and experimenting. I remember Chinese documentaries showing efforts of some engineers studying aircraft radar who all lost when testing experimental early warning radar and same with some early pilots testing fly by wire technology. So many sacrifices. Some people think all this is hidden. No we respect and appreciate all their work and sacrifice.

Government seems to give them attention and compensate their families. At least the government shows this. We don't really 100% know for sure if that is all true but at least the ones they show they did not hide anything. Even though I think many of these were not having many witnesses. They can hide if they want and maybe sometimes they do like alot of governments around the world.

 

[Viking 63]

Accidents happen all over the world, and china is no exception, I think China has pretty good Pilot training program in place but when you do extensive flying these things do happen nothing out of order here !!!

 

[BL33D]

You cannot say we hide all problems. You need to prove that is true. I can also say we do not hide a single problem. Who is right? You assume we hide all problems but these crashes are hard to hide and really there is rarely reason for hiding. I remember at least three J-10 crash and several J-15 crash and Jh-7. Some lost pilots and media in China is completely write about it and even suggest faults with manufacturer and navy or airforce. Anyway that is theory talk.

Reality is China's government of course will hide if suits them. But this is true for every government so why anyone treat China different? That's the real what about. You cannot say China government is bad because it hides. Then of course we will say well why does USA government hide? Why does Russia government cover up? And Pakistan and India? All hiding stuff? How come then those governments are not bad? This is why we ask what about you? You all hate China because of certain true or untrue crimes when you say it's government or whatever but you are all guilty of same things more or less. It's just a double standard. Anyway did the government attempt to hide this? Okay it's obvious witnessed but you have no proof that government will hide it if not. Only your word suggesting that and some people here believe in God. Such grand lies.

We are not questioning the source. We are saying it's saying there are major flaws without saying what flaws and providing us some more details. So basically it is aiming for some cheap view and generate mass controversy. If the article says what flaws they mean and explains how they are exist, then it will be different. Otherwise it is unfortunate accident not 100% directly only due to fault of government or people or country. But some people want to make a link and say you see this is 100% only fault of the government, or the training, or the country, or the people. This is what we are against.

Will you deny that CPC has much more control over information dissemination than any other country? Its not that I dont believe other country hide, but I am pretty sure everyone here knows that China is a extreme case. You guys are being constantly monitored and your internet is being tracked like non other. I agree CIA and NSA might be doing the same, but the scale and the purpose is on a different level.
So pardon me for being skeptical about China's accidents. For a military as huge as yours, its impossible that accidents dont occur. Its just that its hardly ever recorded. Everything we know about China's military are just estimates and guesses.

And the title might be to make it flashy, but the important part is crashing of planes. Its not exactly the job of the news agency to describe you the exact faults and its remedies. Its to highlight a flaw and let your military handle the problems.

Isnt SCMP owned by Alibaba? Why this outrage? If they say they have got information from close military sources then we have to take them on their words.

this will improve china's rediness. wars are coming. with each mistake they will learn and make chinese combat capability better when actual war comes. 1 or 2 deaths in peace time is better than 1000 deaths in battlefield because u didn't know what could go wrong.

jia you!

I agree completely here. In that respect IAF and PAF pilots will come always among the top pilots because of the level of experience and operational readiness globally. The amount of sorties, operations and threat they face is unlike any other country.

 

[nang2]

Will you deny that CPC has much more control over information dissemination than any other country? Its not that I dont believe other country hide, but I am pretty sure everyone here knows that China is a extreme case. You guys are being constantly monitored and your internet is being tracked like non other. I agree CIA and NSA might be doing the same, but the scale and the purpose is on a different level.
So pardon me for being skeptical about China's accidents. For a military as huge as yours, its impossible that accidents dont occur. Its just that its hardly ever recorded. Everything we know about China's military are just estimates and guesses.

And the title might be to make it flashy, but the important part is crashing of planes. Its not exactly the job of the news agency to describe you the exact faults and its remedies. Its to highlight a flaw and let your military handle the problems.

Isnt SCMP owned by Alibaba? Why this outrage? If they say they have got information from close military sources then we have to take them on their words.


I agree completely here. In that respect IAF and PAF pilots will come always among the top pilots because of the level of experience and operational readiness globally. The amount of sorties, operations and threat they face is unlike any other country.

Your bias makes you blind. Otherwise you would have seen the pictures of the public honoring of those martyred pilots and you would have seen that your words about CPC controlling over information dissemination would be completely out of place. This incident has long been a public information. Only you act like you just discovered something that CPC tries to hide.

 

[BL33D]

Your bias makes you blind. Otherwise you would have seen the pictures of the public honoring of those martyred pilots and you would have seen that your words about CPC controlling over information dissemination would be completely out of place. This incident has long been a public information. Only you act like you just discovered something that CPC tries to hide.

Read again. I said such information are rare to come by, not that I am some genius who discovered it. Dont strawman me.

 

[gambit]

We are saying it's saying there are major flaws without saying what flaws and providing us some more details.

Read my post 17 pge two and think about what you said -- for a moment. For the charge of 'lack of training', this is a serious charge and more mishaps occurred from human errors than from hardware causes. I said 'human' because it includes ground crews as well. A poorly experienced air traffic controller can -- and have caused -- various types of mishaps, including catastrophic ones, in the air and on the ground. A poorly supervised mechanic can -- and have caused -- lost lives because of a misplaced tool in the aircraft.

Any military is a public institution but its supervision is private. So if there is a lack of details in the public domain about anything relating to the military, guess who is actually responsible? Certainly not the public for that lack of details. Experience proved that the more open to public scrutiny, the more a military will improve in all aspects. I said 'a', not 'the', to include all armies regardless of country. Like all things, the people contributes and the military is no different. It is the people's lives, literally the next generation, that are at stake. The lack of details from the supervisor -- the government -- cannot be blamed on the people whenever the people's services -- like the media -- tries to inform the people. In other words, the arrow should be aimed at the government, not the media.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Military jets and choppers crashes all the time everywhere, in India and US included, bad business but nothing worth to blow them out of proportion.

List of accidents and incidents involving military aircraft (2010–present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_military_aircraft_(2010–present)

2019
January 9
French Air Force Dassault Mirage 2000D 667/3-JZ crashes near Mignovillard in the Jura region of eastern France during a low-altitude training mission; the two pilots are never found.
January 28
An Indian Air Force SEPECAT Jaguar crashed shortly after takeoff in Uttar Pradesh.[356] The pilot ejects safely.
February 1
An Indian Air Force Dassault Mirage 2000TI crashes shortly after takeoff at Bangalore, Karnataka during a test flight; both pilots ejected, but did not survive.[357]
February 10
An Ethiopian Mil Mi-8, ET2015, crashes in a UN compound at Abyei, South Sudan, with 23 on board, killing 3.[358]
February 12
An Indian Mikoyan MiG-27 crashed at the Pokhran firing range.[359] The pilot ejects and survives.
February 19
Two Indian Air Force BAE Hawk Mk 132 collide in mid-air while rehearsing for a display at Bengaluru's Aero India show. One pilot was killed, two injured.[360]
February 27
An Indian Air Force Mil Mi-17V5 crashes at Budgam, near Srinagar, killing the 6 IAF personal on board, and a civilian on the ground. Later it was revealed that the helicopter has been shot down by Indian SAM (surface to air missile) station.[361]
March 8
An Indian Air Force Mikoyan MiG-21 crashes near Bikaner, western Rajasthan following a bird strike, the pilot ejects safely.[362]
March 12
A PLANAF jet fighter, probably a Xian JH-7, crashes in Ledong County, Hainan province; Lieutenant Colonel Ren Yongtao and Lieutenant Nian Jinxin die in the crash.[363]
March 30
A U.S. Marine Corps AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter crashes outside of Marine Corps Air Station Yuma in Yuma Arizona. Both pilots die in the crash.
March 31
An Indian Mikoyan MiG-27 UPG crashes in Sirohi, Rajasthan, the pilot ejects safely.[364]
April 9
JASDF Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II 79-8705 disappears during a training mission with three other aircraft. [365] Some debris from the aircraft is found that night and some human remains were recovered on June 7 from the ocean floor. Reports released on June 10 and August 9 attribute the cause to spatial disorientation. All 12 (and a partially completed 14th) JASDF F-35As are temporarily grounded following the crash.
May 17
An U.S. Air Force F-16 crashed into a warehouse near the March Air Reserve Base in Perris, California. The pilot ejected before impact, and the small fire that broke out was quickly suppressed.[366]
May 24
Mexican Navy Mil Mi-17 ANX-2206 crashes in central Mexico while fighting a fire, killing six including five members of the Navy crew and an inspector with the national forestry commission.[367][368]
May 25
A U.S. Army Boeing CH-47 Chinook is destroyed following a hard landing in Helmand, Afghanistan. Passengers and crew on the board survived and sustained injuries.[369]
June 3
Main article: 2019 Indian Air Force An-32 crash
IAF Antonov An-32 K2752 crashes near Pari Hills in the state of Arunchal Pradesh after losing contact with ground control leading to death of all 13 members onboard. [370] Wreckage was located on June 11 by a Mil Mi-17.
June 24
German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon 30+48 collides with German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon 30+55 near Müritz, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Both pilots eject but only one survives. Both aircraft were of TLG73.[371]
July 25
Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet E F-UHRR of Patrouille de France overruns the runway at Perpignan Airport. The pilot ejects and survives.[372]
August 8
An IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI crashes minutes after take-off, pilots eject safely. A Sukhoi-30 fighter jet of the Indian Air Force that had taken off on a training sortie on Thursday evening has crashed, an IAF official said. [373]
August 26
Spanish Air Force CASA C-101 E.25 Mirlo crashes into the sea in front of "La Manga", Region of Murcia, killing the pilot and member of aerobatic demonstration team Patrulla Águila.[374]
September 18
Spanish Air Force ENAER T-35 Pillán E.26 Tamiz crashes into the sea shortly after taking off from San Javier airbase in Region of Murcia. Both the instructor and the student die.[375]
October 2
Main article: 2019 Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress crash
A Boeing B-17G Flying Fortress, registration N93012, "Nine-O-Nine" (former 44-83575), crashes while attempting to land at Bradley International Airport, Connecticut during an air show after the pilot reported a problem with the No. 4 engine, killing seven of 13 on board (including both pilots) and injuring one person on the ground. Aircraft burns out with only the left wing and tail intact. The aircraft was painted to represent the original Nine-O-Nine, B-17G 42-31909.

I agree , this article seem to be biased from the beginning to be honest. Fighter jets and military planes crash all over the world. No man made machine is supreme or infallible. So o don't understand why this article will take a few crashes to judge the whole military system of a country. If that was the case, then we can assume that almost every major military power on the planet has 'major flaws' IMO.

 

[gambit]

I agree , this article seem to be biased from the beginning to be honest. Fighter jets and military planes crash all over the world. No man made machine is supreme or infallible. So o don't understand why this article will take a few crashes to judge the whole military system of a country. If that was the case, then we can assume that almost every major military power on the planet has 'major flaws' IMO.

Lack of transparency often have that effect -- jumping to conclusions. We learned that the hard way.

 

[serenity]

Read my post 17 pge two and think about what you said -- for a moment. For the charge of 'lack of training', this is a serious charge and more mishaps occurred from human errors than from hardware causes. I said 'human' because it includes ground crews as well. A poorly experienced air traffic controller can -- and have caused -- various types of mishaps, including catastrophic ones, in the air and on the ground. A poorly supervised mechanic can -- and have caused -- lost lives because of a misplaced tool in the aircraft.

Any military is a public institution but its supervision is private. So if there is a lack of details in the public domain about anything relating to the military, guess who is actually responsible? Certainly not the public for that lack of details. Experience proved that the more open to public scrutiny, the more a military will improve in all aspects. I said 'a', not 'the', to include all armies regardless of country. Like all things, the people contributes and the military is no different. It is the people's lives, literally the next generation, that are at stake. The lack of details from the supervisor -- the government -- cannot be blamed on the people whenever the people's services -- like the media -- tries to inform the people. In other words, the arrow should be aimed at the government, not the media.

Right I actually agree with all this. But the problem is the article did not say with explanation whether this is ddue to training problem or maintenance or what? They just said AL-31 engine failure. But if it is due to government neglect training program or maintenance, then it is definitely the fault of government. Even when that is proven to be true, so what? We never say the many American accidents means USA government is terrible and hopeless so on. That's what we don't understand. Even if the article provides clear explanation of what they think happen with some evidence, then so what? Right now the article is saying equivalent of American airforce has big flaws because a few accidents happened. I imagine many American fans and supporters will not like that either.

 

[Foxtrot Delta]

Will you deny that CPC has much more control over information dissemination than any other country? Its not that I dont believe other country hide, but I am pretty sure everyone here knows that China is a extreme case. You guys are being constantly monitored and your internet is being tracked like non other. I agree CIA and NSA might be doing the same, but the scale and the purpose is on a different level.
So pardon me for being skeptical about China's accidents. For a military as huge as yours, its impossible that accidents dont occur. Its just that its hardly ever recorded. Everything we know about China's military are just estimates and guesses.

And the title might be to make it flashy, but the important part is crashing of planes. Its not exactly the job of the news agency to describe you the exact faults and its remedies. Its to highlight a flaw and let your military handle the problems.

Isnt SCMP owned by Alibaba? Why this outrage? If they say they have got information from close military sources then we have to take them on their words.


I agree completely here. In that respect IAF and PAF pilots will come always among the top pilots because of the level of experience and operational readiness globally. The amount of sorties, operations and threat they face is unlike any other country.

indian airforce is outclassed by PAF by a huge margin. Israeli Air Force turkish and korean air forces could match PAF.

 

[serenity]

Will you deny that CPC has much more control over information dissemination than any other country? Its not that I dont believe other country hide, but I am pretty sure everyone here knows that China is a extreme case. You guys are being constantly monitored and your internet is being tracked like non other. I agree CIA and NSA might be doing the same, but the scale and the purpose is on a different level.
So pardon me for being skeptical about China's accidents. For a military as huge as yours, its impossible that accidents dont occur. Its just that its hardly ever recorded. Everything we know about China's military are just estimates and guesses.

And the title might be to make it flashy, but the important part is crashing of planes. Its not exactly the job of the news agency to describe you the exact faults and its remedies. Its to highlight a flaw and let your military handle the problems.

Isnt SCMP owned by Alibaba? Why this outrage? If they say they have got information from close military sources then we have to take them on their words.


I agree completely here. In that respect IAF and PAF pilots will come always among the top pilots because of the level of experience and operational readiness globally. The amount of sorties, operations and threat they face is unlike any other country.

Do you realize this is called conjecture? You personally believe this and your media always tell you this. So therefore it is true? Just like Su-30MKI can find and locate J-20 from long distance? And your pilot is not IAF pilot until proven all lies? Okay let's do this thoroughly and fairly.

CPC is authoritarian and very strict. China under rule of CPC does not have the same ideas of freedom as some other countries. This is all true. But all our standards are different so we cannot compare. We do not always believe that the western way is best so why can't we decide for ourselves how to govern ourselves based on our own culture, belief, and standards about freedom? Okay that's one point to understand. Second is the monitoring. I think this is definitely more true than the first point. We have much more monitoring and censoring compared to somewhere like Sweden or Ireland. But I think the hiding and censoring and monitoring is about the same in the USA. They are just not very obvious. That's my belief like you believe that CPC cares what I write and how I express myself. They don't care until I get very big stage or become opposed to them. But they preserve our unity so I think they have their job to do and they seem to do it how they understand it can be done.

Now we know China compared to usual country may do more monitoring and censoring for mixed reasons. How does this mean CPC hide military accidents? They already showed many in the past even ones where Navy accident happen without civilian witness. Also many air accident in countryside or mountain with no witness. Because you don't read and watch the reports the CPC allowed, doesn't mean they don't exist. And we need to prove on point to point basis. They didn't hide this one.

Okay this is all really getting so far away from what we are talking about.

I just don't know what you mean to really say by this statement you made:

Yes China is not famous for freedom of information. So what? India also isn't and full of lying and cover up too. So is the USA. So why single out CPC? And what are you suggesting? That because China is one of many countries bad with freedom of information therefore what? It hides this? But over here in this case it didn't hide it. Are you then trying to say that maybe this sort of thing is very common and China's pretty okay record of accidents is suspicious and there are more things? That's ridiculous and I'm sure educated people understand the faulty thinking.

 

[gambit]

Right I actually agree with all this. But the problem is the article did not say with explanation whether this is ddue to training problem or maintenance or what? They just said AL-31 engine failure. But if it is due to government neglect training program or maintenance, then it is definitely the fault of government. Even when that is proven to be true, so what?

There are two issues here...

1- The PLA may not have provided the necessary training for the new engine.

2- Transparency of the issue.

The lack of item 2 amplifies the speculations of item 1. This is your 'so what'.

We never say the many American accidents means USA government is terrible and hopeless so on. That's what we don't understand. Even if the article provides clear explanation of what they think happen with some evidence, then so what? Right now the article is saying equivalent of American airforce has big flaws because a few accidents happened. I imagine many American fans and supporters will not like that either.

The difference is the US have policy transparency. We do not like it that the government fails in any way, especially when it cost lives, but overall, the US public have greater views into the US military than we can say the same for the Chinese people to the PLA. When I transferred to the F-16 in 1984, I came into the tail end of the kapton wire issue.

https://www.interconnect-wiring.com/blog/arc-tracking-kapton-insulated-f-16-wire/
https://apnews.com/73f1522412b77cad1c04492d8a07f3d0

The kapton wire failure caused a fatality. The pilot's widow successfully sued General Dynamics and the USAF received a black eye from that issue. How many people took joy in the travails of the American F-22 and F-35? Are you telling me that the J-20 program have been error free so far? If so, this would be the world's first perfect item in all of history. But since we know that this is impossible, do tell us how many errors -- of any kind -- in the J-20 program? None, because the PLA have not been transparent about itself.

The reason China is big news is because it is normal for the US military to be under scrutiny.

 

[serenity]

There are two issues here...

1- The PLA may not have provided the necessary training for the new engine.

2- Transparency of the issue.

The lack of item 2 amplifies the speculations of item 1. This is your 'so what'.


The difference is the US have policy transparency. We do not like it that the government fails in any way, especially when it cost lives, but overall, the US public have greater views into the US military than we can say the same for the Chinese people to the PLA. When I transferred to the F-16 in 1984, I came into the tail end of the kapton wire issue.

https://www.interconnect-wiring.com/blog/arc-tracking-kapton-insulated-f-16-wire/
https://apnews.com/73f1522412b77cad1c04492d8a07f3d0

The kapton wire failure caused a fatality. The pilot's widow successfully sued General Dynamics and the USAF received a black eye from that issue. How many people took joy in the travails of the American F-22 and F-35? Are you telling me that the J-20 program have been error free so far? If so, this would be the world's first perfect item in all of history. But since we know that this is impossible, do tell us how many errors -- of any kind -- in the J-20 program? None, because the PLA have not been transparent about itself.

The reason China is big news is because it is normal for the US military to be under scrutiny.

No J-20 program cannot possibly be error free so far. But they do not want to tell us in fear of revealing any information not just to non important civilians but fear of foreign intelligence knowledge about things. Too much information about one topic can reveal much more about big range of topics. So I understand keeping secret. But just because some things are secret, doesn't mean we can guess and definitely say whatever we guess is true.

For example you say PLA may not have provided good training on one particular engine. This is may be. And if they keep things secret, how can we say this could be true? Yes I agree it is a may be training failure. But then also can be maybe pilot error. Or may be can be low quality engine exported from Russia. May be intentional damage by some angry person in China or in Russia. May be accidental damage. May be bird. May be software error. May be God. May be didn't happen at all and all just a media trick. All are may bes and must bes in some different people's mind.

So we should just leave this accident without guessing too much. May be 9/11 is US government action. May be moon was never explored. May be earth is flat. Guessing without knowing is dangerous eventually especially when people change may be into must be.

We can just say this unfortunate accidents happened. The government didn't hide it. May be they want to may be they hide many others. We don't know and should not guess when we don't know and definitely should not say CPC does this because of evil reasons not for understandable reasons but dishonest anyway. Sometime dishonesty is correct way. Otherwise why every government and every human use it throughout history? CPC is not only lier and cover things up it is no more and no less evil than any other big government with a lot of power. I can understand Ireland or small and developed country having lower level of this kind of corruption and dirty deeds but big and powerful countries have more in the game.

I personally will guess this is something to do with engine failure. In the past at least two J-10 have accident due to bird and due to engine failure. Seems like a common problem for AL-31 and even IAF twin AL-31 cause accidence.

This is also not a new engine but we don't know how experienced the pilot was. I doubt a perfect plane can just just have accident. Airforce pilots still train quite a lot and recently the training in PLAAF has gone up and total number of pilots and planes have reduced. More accidents due to higher rate of training also.

J-15 crashes, the government has used media sources to say is likely to be flight control issue at certain rare flight pattern and positions. I think Russia know the canard problems too maybe they solved it. Gripen also had multiple loss of control and crashes. Even F-22 had a flight control problem once. They did not give any details but we can understand this. Anyway details are too complex for normal person to understand. So they admit to that fault as well since CPC controls the navy and development programs. No civilian witnesses but they gave the pilots very public attention. These days the government fears public anger about hiding and these sort of things. Better to show than to hide and get found.

The engineering problems is different issue and nothing to do with politics or society. I think the problem may be either human or equipment. Either way this is common for all countries so some people use this to say China so and so and Chinese practices are so and so. They just want to use one thing to make big conclusions without considering how complicated these issues and reasons are. Also at the same time they're government are not better or necessarily made of better ideas or people.

The problem some of us have with this article is that it is suggesting this thing. Without understanding they give us maybe = must be and let people think this way without any more details or evidence. That's the problem we have here but SCMP I think is CPC controlled anyway. They are bought out and like Russia, they mix some positive with negative but also mix some truth with lies and all are aimed to manipulate people doesn't which way. The logic and thinking behind this article is hopeless.

If they only have the information they have, they should just say X happened at Y during Z. Investigation is happening to find whether it is a flaw with system or equipment or something else. We will report if further information and finding come out. Not say oh this must be because of flaw with whole airforce. I guess if that is case, then other airforces are more than flawed.