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Facts on the myth of India's indigenous Missiles

Bear fruits? When? That article is less than a year ago, Oct 2012. :omghaha: :omghaha:
Bollywood daydreaming :sleep:

Agni 5, Shaurya, Prahaar, plus the soon to come INS Arihant, Arjun Mk 2, INS Vikrant, Nirbhay etc are fruit enough. Were you hibernating in some cave for the past one year?? Or had too much opium? :hang2: Ignorance still bliss in China?

p.s : Not meaning to hurt you, but this is the truth. :flame:
 
So wrong. Ours are mostly indigenous, except jet engines which made up the bulk of the import.

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I'm aware that you're trying to post a picture but clearly its not a picture you were linking.
 
Agni 5, Shaurya, Prahaar, plus the soon to come INS Arihant, Arjun Mk 2, INS Vikrant, Nirbhay etc are fruit enough. Were you hibernating in some cave for the past one year?? Or had too much opium? :hang2: Ignorance still bliss in China?

p.s : Not meaning to hurt you, but this is the truth. :flame:

LOL, they arebased on Russian technology and component you just assemble, LOL.. Even your Vikrant is just a body without engine nothing, completely empty. Now waiting for the russians. :omghaha::omghaha:
 
These Article is a bubble buster for Indian after the whole world help them still far behind the rest of the world.
The incompetent Abdul kalam he looks more like a south indian folk dancer then scientist .DRDO scientist are all south indian good for nothing just take billion of Dollar for research but still result no where near,They are all Ph.d and master but cannot think out of the box only worried about their 9 - 5 job and pension.if you tell them to design some weapon system they will spend 1000 hours and deliver you basic concept very low mental capacity.

They Are like termite in indian defence budget.


Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles

India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles
A Times of India report last year claimed that "Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena". It also lamented that "the only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile".

Along with raising the alarm, the Indian report offered the usual excuse for the alleged missile gap by boasting that "unlike Pakistan, our program is indigenous".

Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.

US-European Origins of Indian Missile Program:

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified.

Indian+Agni+Origin.gif


US Scout and India's SLV3 are both 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation.

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly surpassed by substantial West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany assisted India in three key missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were also used for military missiles.

The cryogenic stage used in a recent failed satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.

North American Origins of India's Nuclear Bomb:

India's nuclear program would not have advanced without a lot of help from Canadians that resulted in Indian copies of Canadian reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear bombs.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway, according to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.

Heavy Dependence on Imports:

India is overwhelmingly dependent on foreign imports, mainly Russian and Israeli, for about 70 per cent of its defense requirement, especially for critical military products and high-end defense technology, according to an Indian defense analyst Dinesh Kumar. Kumar adds that "India’s defense ministry officially admits to attaining only 30 to 35 per cent s elf-reliance capability for its defense requirement. But even this figure is suspect given that India’s self-reliance mostly accrues from transfer of technology, license production and foreign consultancy despite considerable investment in time and money".

On the same theme, Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that "India has had little success with military equipment production, and has had problems producing Russian Su-30MKI fighter jets and T-90S tanks, English Hawk training jets and French Scorpene submarines."

On India's perennial dependence on imports, here's how blogger Vijainder Thakur sees India's loose meaning of "indigenous" Smerch and other imports:

"The Russians will come here set up the plant for us and supply the critical manufacturing machinery. Indian labor and technical management will run the plant which will simply assemble the system. Critical components and the solid propellant rocket motor fuel will still come from Perm Powder Mill. However, bureaucrats in New Delhi and the nation as a whole will be happy. The Smerch system will be proudly paraded on Rajpath every republic day as an indigenous weapon system.

A decade or so down the line, Smerch will get outdated and India will negotiate a new deal with Russia for the license production of a new multiple rocket system for the Indian Army.

China will by then have developed its own follow up system besides having used the solid propellant motors to develop other weapon systems and assist its space research program."

India does export some armaments but its modest record of producing and exporting weapon systems is evident from the fact that India’s defense annual exports averaged only US$ 88 million between 2006-07 and 2008-09. By contrast, Pakistan exported $300 million worth of military hardware and munitions last year.

Summary:

There is plenty of evidence and documentation from sources such as the Wisconsin Project to show that the Indian missiles and bombs are no more indigenous than Pakistan's. The fact is that neither India nor Pakistan were first to split the atom, or to develop modern rocket science. The Industrial Revolution didn't exactly start in India or Pakistan or even in Asia; it began in Europe and the rest of the world learned from it, even copied it.

The differences between India and Pakistan in terms of the technology know-how and the knowledge base are often highly exaggerated to portray India as "technology power house" and Pakistan as a backwater. Some of these analyses by Indian Brahman pundits and commentators have racial and religious overtones implying that somehow Brahmin or Hindu minds are superior to those of the people of other religions or castes in South Asia.

What is often ignored by such anti-Pakistan Indian analysts is the fact that neither of the two Indian pioneers, nuclear scientist Homi Bahbha and rocket scientist Abul Kalam, belong to the Hindu faith or the Brahmin caste. The false sense of Indian superiority is pushed by self-serving Indian and some western analysts to justify their own biased conclusions.

These analysts have fed what George Perkovich described in his book "India's Nuclear Bomb" on page 410 as "general Indian contempt for Pakistan's technical capabilities" and may cause serious miscalculations by the Indian security establishment about Pakistan's defense capabilities. Indian chauvinistic analyses have been put in perspective by another piece in Newsday (Friday, May 15, 1998; Page A5: "India Errs Nuclear Power Isn't Real Power"), in which George Perkovich talked about the rise in India of a radicalized, ultra-nationalistic BJP for the "glory of the Hindu race and rashtra (nation)". Perkovich added that "the Bharatiya Janata Party, has long felt that nuclear weapons offer a quicker ride to the top. Like atavistic nationalists elsewhere, they believe that pure explosive power will somehow earn respect and build pride."

The extreme right-wing influence on South Asian analysts has the potential for serious miscalculations by either India or Pakistan in the nuclear and the missile arena, and it does not augur well for the future of Indo-Pak region and the world at large.
 
LOL, they arebased on Russian technology and component you just assemble, LOL.. Even your Vikrant is just a body without engine nothing, completely empty. Now waiting for the russians. :omghaha::omghaha:

Look who's talking!! LOL. Chinese arms aren't even Russian Technology, they're older SOVIET technology! And someone sure is waiting for an engine from the Russkies for their so called 5th generation aircraft! After practically being forced off the Arms Importers list by sanctions and denial of tech, it remains to be seen if the Chinese 5th gen planes ever take to the skies again!

p.s: Not meaning to hurt you, but this is the truth. :flame:
 
So wrong. Ours are mostly indigenous, except jet engines which made up the bulk of the import.
@kbd-raaf here you go

Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Current Rank Importer 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
1 India 911 1242 1872 2802 2227 1036 1257 2179 1810 2116 3337
2 Australia 364 1191 647 798 505 470 682 629 380 757 1677
3 South Korea 1262 623 461 680 986 686 1650 1758 1821 1172 1131
4 Singapore 622 220 235 88 384 543 52 368 1123 1729 1078
5 United States 301 449 453 533 512 501 581 731 808 831 893
6 Algeria 418 553 237 197 272 156 308 471 1518 942 791
7 Saudi Arabia 158 397 533 592 385 332 262 613 939 1146 2580
8 Greece 710 725 491 2241 1528 389 598 1796 563 1269 703
9 China 2015 3366 2819 2207 3080 3511 3831 1474 1481 595 559
10 United Arab Emirates 243 186 213 695 1246 2198 2026 938 748 604 493
11 Pakistan 80 59 555 159 1161 148 185 64 115 626 787
12 Turkey 1170 553 1009 438 187 1005 422 585 578 675 468
13 Malaysia 30 26 131 135 48 51 410 546 541 1494 411
14 Norway 263 148 92 4 6 14 469 494 536 576 205
15 Indonesia 171 27 63 398 82 31 58 577 241 452 198

My badd.

China was by far the world's largest importer of arms until 2006
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My badd.

China was by far the world's largest importer of arms until 2006

Jet engines made up bulk of it.

Look who's talking!! LOL. Chinese arms aren't even Russian Technology, they're older SOVIET technology! And someone sure is waiting for an engine from the Russkies for their so called 5th generation aircraft! After practically being forced off the Arms Importers list by sanctions and denial of tech, it remains to be seen if the Chinese 5th gen planes ever take to the skies again!

p.s: Not meaning to hurt you, but this is the truth. :flame:

LOL, we built our first ICBM since late 60's, You just tested your Agni 5, it's not even in production yet . Keep eating your sour grapes. :yahoo: :yahoo:
 
Jet engines made up bulk of it.



LOL, we built our first ICBM since late 60's, You just tested your Agni 5, it's not even in production yet . Keep eating your sour grapes. :yahoo: :yahoo:

Yeah? Let's see a breakdown.

Ain't that a bit shameful? China at the time was impoverished to say the least, the government should had bigger priorities than ICBMs.
 
My god
The chini trolls are actually believing & commenting on this thread

What can I say
Pakistani & Chinese members are having a joint session of self delusion here
 
LOL, we built our first ICBM since late 60's, You just tested your Agni 5, it's not even in production yet . Keep eating your sour grapes. :yahoo: :yahoo:

LOL. Going by that, you ought to have been pioneers in Military Hardware by now. Why are you guys still waiting for Russian engines then? After having ICBMs and nuclear submarines since 1960s, Why did you guys buy an old Aircraft Carrier under the guise of turning it into a floating casino and then refurbish it as your flagship of the Navy? You should've already had at least 5-6 aircraft carriers with indigenous carrier based aircraft at least. Instead, why are you guys still in our league?? Case of rotten grapes, I guess.

BTW, I still think I'm not trolling, just saying the truth which might hurt a little.:flame:
 
Yeah? Let's see a breakdown.

Ain't that a bit shameful? China at the time was impoverished to say the least, the government should had bigger priorities than ICBMs.

It was the height of cold war. We fought the Americans in korean war to a standstill, General Macarthur threatened to nuke us. Few years later, Sino-Soviet split, they threatened to attack. We needed strong defense.
The real shame is India, today cold war mentality is gone, you have no immediate threat from any great power, You didn't fight any superpower nor did they threaten to nuke you. All u have is border dispute. It's a different world now compared to the 60's, yet you spend frivolously money on weapons when you have 1/3 of the world's poverty.
 
LOL. Going by that, you ought to have been pioneers in Military Hardware by now. Why are you guys still waiting for Russian engines then? After having ICBMs and nuclear submarines since 1960s, Why did you guys buy an old Aircraft Carrier under the guise of turning it into a floating casino and then refurbish it as your flagship of the Navy? You should've already had at least 5-6 aircraft carriers with indigenous carrier based aircraft at least. Instead, why are you guys still in our league?? Case of rotten grapes, I guess.

BTW, I still think I'm not trolling, just saying the truth which might hurt a little.:flame:

You're neither speaking the truth nor trolling. Denial and delusional of grandeur is a mental disorder. :omghaha: :omghaha:
 
It was the height of cold war. We fought the Americans in korean war to a standstill, General Macarthur threatened to nuke us. Few years later, Sino-Soviet split, they threatened to attack. We needed strong defense.
The real shame is India, today cold war mentality is gone, you have no immediate threat from any great power, You didn't fight any superpower nor did they threaten to nuke you. All u have is border dispute. It's a different world now compared to the 60's, yet you spend frivolously money on weapons when you have 1/3 of the world's poverty.

The Cold War ended in 1991. The Americans at that time were very friendly with you guys. The Russians were in no position to fight with you guys. the Indians at that time were far behind you in most fields. Still, why was China the largest importer of arms from 1991 to 2006??

Trust a Chinese guy to justify his aggression and preach pacifism to others! Whatta Hypocrite!
 

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