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Facts on the myth of India's indigenous Missiles

Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles

India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles
A Times of India report last year claimed that "Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena". It also lamented that "the only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile".

Along with raising the alarm, the Indian report offered the usual excuse for the alleged missile gap by boasting that "unlike Pakistan, our program is indigenous".

Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.

US-European Origins of Indian Missile Program:

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified.

Indian+Agni+Origin.gif


US Scout and India's SLV3 are both 23 meters long, use four similar solid-fuel stages and "open loop" guidance, and lift a 40-kilogram payload into low earth orbit. The SLV's 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

The United States was followed by others. Between 1963 and 1975, more than 350 U.S., French, Soviet, and British sounding rockets were launched from India's Thumba Range, which the United States helped design. Thumba's first group of Indian engineers had learned rocket launching and range operation in the United States.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

France also launched sounding rockets from India, and in the late 1960s allowed India to begin building "Centaure" sounding rockets under license from Sud Aviation.

The aid of the United States and France, however, was quickly surpassed by substantial West German help in the 1970s and 1980s. Germany assisted India in three key missile technologies: guidance, rocket testing, and the use of composite materials. All were supposed to be for the space program, but all were also used for military missiles.

The cryogenic stage used in a recent failed satellite launch by India was a copy of the Russian cryogenic rocket engine and the cryogenic technology transferred to India in the 1990s. According to Non-proliferation review of 1997, it has emerged that Russia continued transferring rocket engine technology to India in 1993 after its agreements with the United States stop such transfer under MTCR. This reportedly resulted in the completion of 60 to 80 percent of the transfers to India.

North American Origins of India's Nuclear Bomb:

India's nuclear program would not have advanced without a lot of help from Canadians that resulted in Indian copies of Canadian reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear bombs.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway, according to The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.

Heavy Dependence on Imports:

India is overwhelmingly dependent on foreign imports, mainly Russian and Israeli, for about 70 per cent of its defense requirement, especially for critical military products and high-end defense technology, according to an Indian defense analyst Dinesh Kumar. Kumar adds that "India’s defense ministry officially admits to attaining only 30 to 35 per cent s elf-reliance capability for its defense requirement. But even this figure is suspect given that India’s self-reliance mostly accrues from transfer of technology, license production and foreign consultancy despite considerable investment in time and money".

On the same theme, Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that "India has had little success with military equipment production, and has had problems producing Russian Su-30MKI fighter jets and T-90S tanks, English Hawk training jets and French Scorpene submarines."

On India's perennial dependence on imports, here's how blogger Vijainder Thakur sees India's loose meaning of "indigenous" Smerch and other imports:

"The Russians will come here set up the plant for us and supply the critical manufacturing machinery. Indian labor and technical management will run the plant which will simply assemble the system. Critical components and the solid propellant rocket motor fuel will still come from Perm Powder Mill. However, bureaucrats in New Delhi and the nation as a whole will be happy. The Smerch system will be proudly paraded on Rajpath every republic day as an indigenous weapon system.

A decade or so down the line, Smerch will get outdated and India will negotiate a new deal with Russia for the license production of a new multiple rocket system for the Indian Army.

China will by then have developed its own follow up system besides having used the solid propellant motors to develop other weapon systems and assist its space research program."

India does export some armaments but its modest record of producing and exporting weapon systems is evident from the fact that India’s defense annual exports averaged only US$ 88 million between 2006-07 and 2008-09. By contrast, Pakistan exported $300 million worth of military hardware and munitions last year.

Summary:

There is plenty of evidence and documentation from sources such as the Wisconsin Project to show that the Indian missiles and bombs are no more indigenous than Pakistan's. The fact is that neither India nor Pakistan were first to split the atom, or to develop modern rocket science. The Industrial Revolution didn't exactly start in India or Pakistan or even in Asia; it began in Europe and the rest of the world learned from it, even copied it.

The differences between India and Pakistan in terms of the technology know-how and the knowledge base are often highly exaggerated to portray India as "technology power house" and Pakistan as a backwater. Some of these analyses by Indian Brahman pundits and commentators have racial and religious overtones implying that somehow Brahmin or Hindu minds are superior to those of the people of other religions or castes in South Asia.

What is often ignored by such anti-Pakistan Indian analysts is the fact that neither of the two Indian pioneers, nuclear scientist Homi Bahbha and rocket scientist Abul Kalam, belong to the Hindu faith or the Brahmin caste. The false sense of Indian superiority is pushed by self-serving Indian and some western analysts to justify their own biased conclusions.

These analysts have fed what George Perkovich described in his book "India's Nuclear Bomb" on page 410 as "general Indian contempt for Pakistan's technical capabilities" and may cause serious miscalculations by the Indian security establishment about Pakistan's defense capabilities. Indian chauvinistic analyses have been put in perspective by another piece in Newsday (Friday, May 15, 1998; Page A5: "India Errs Nuclear Power Isn't Real Power"), in which George Perkovich talked about the rise in India of a radicalized, ultra-nationalistic BJP for the "glory of the Hindu race and rashtra (nation)". Perkovich added that "the Bharatiya Janata Party, has long felt that nuclear weapons offer a quicker ride to the top. Like atavistic nationalists elsewhere, they believe that pure explosive power will somehow earn respect and build pride."

The extreme right-wing influence on South Asian analysts has the potential for serious miscalculations by either India or Pakistan in the nuclear and the missile arena, and it does not augur well for the future of Indo-Pak region and the world at large.

SOOOO ? :omghaha: You want Rockets and Missiles to look like in ROUND BALL ? :yay:
 
You must be still living under a rock for the past many years because Portugal is already thrown out of Macau !



You mean like India stealing nuke technology from Canada's Candu Reactors and then labeling it indigenous ?

We have many advanced reactors that Canada doesent have today.Read advanced Thorium reactors & 500 MW Fast Breeders....Also,a 170 MW Indian Reactor was a copy of a 100 MW Canadian one?..:lol:.

And as for the SLV=Scout fallacy,it is just claims by Dr.Milholem based on the Superficial similarity between both the systems,A slightly closer inspection would have revealed that both arent the same.Different stages of scout have different dimensions & L/D ratios when compared to the SLV-3.Also SLV used HTPB as fuel in all stages,that wasnt the case with Scout.Also technical review documents are not Blueprints.

And did you see my previous reply?Got anything to say about that?

And about cryogenic engine,Russia never transferred us the technology,thats why we had to spend a decade to develop one.

So learn the facts first,eh troll !
You must be still living under a rock for the past many years because Portugal is already thrown out of Macau !



You mean like India stealing nuke technology from Canada's Candu Reactors and then labeling it indigenous ?

We have many advanced reactors that Canada doesent have today.Read advanced Thorium reactors & 500 MW Fast Breeders....:lol:.
 
We have many advanced reactors that Canada doesent have today.Read advanced Thorium reactors & 500 MW Fast Breeders....Also,a 170 MW Indian Reactor was a copy of a 100 MW Canadian one?..:lol:.

And as for the SLV=Scout fallacy,it is just claims by Dr.Milholem based on the Superficial similarity between both the systems,A slightly closer inspection would have revealed that both arent the same.Different stages of scout have different dimensions & L/D ratios when compared to the SLV-3.Also SLV used HTPB as fuel in all stages,that wasnt the case with Scout.Also technical review documents are not Blueprints.

And did you see my previous reply?Got anything to say about that?

And about cryogenic engine,Russia never transferred us the technology,thats why we had to spend a decade to develop one.

So learn the facts first,eh troll !

We have many advanced reactors that Canada doesent have today.Read advanced Thorium reactors & 500 MW Fast Breeders....:lol:.



No amount of truth can cure their lies !!!

Yet we are obliged to answer them nevertheless if we refrain from saying anything we may be seen as having lost in verbal battle ...
 
After much effort of the 60's, you're not going to dump all your ICBM programs just because there's no immediate threat, are you? Even cars and machinery modernize with times, no different for military machinery and technology. Bearing in mind, the country was ravaged by civil war and WW2, millions massacred. Then, we were threatened by two superpowers. India didn't even go thru 1/10 of we had gone thru. The psyche of the nation is different: China need a strong defence. India purely wants hegemonic power, to boss things around Asia. Who can India call good friends in South Asia? None. You're oblivious to India's image in your region. China borders 14 countries, but only two border disputes, even than we've good ties them.

Chinese on average poor? Our top tier cities income per capital is on par with many developed countries, rural areas are not, but we have 1.3 billion people. Overall income per capital is still 4 times higher than India. Our foreign reserves are the biggest in the world. Yet Chinese military spending is 2% of GDP, India is 2.5% with almost 2 times more poverty, 30% more illiteracy and more social problems than China. Self Reflection? Who is India threat? none. For you to take swipe at china, shouldn't India take care of these issues first.

I'm Chinese. My tone has never changed, just calling a spade a spade. Indeed, nationalism is not the same as patriotism, please look into the mirror.

India was under foreign rule for 200 years, if that's not a reason for a strong defense then I don't know what is. Millions died under British rule because of purposeful mismanagement. (Read Bengal famine).

Who can China call good friends in the world? Pakistan and North Korea, hardly the best of company. If you look beyond recent international interest because of economic prosperity, most of the world has a poor view of China and it's political systems. India also has only two neighbours with territorial disputes.

You call a GDP per capita in your top cities of 15k USD "on par with developed countries"? That's less than my monthly pay and I'm a 20 year old student. (We're not counting HK/Macau as they're outside PRC's political jurisdiction)

Your foreign reserves are mostly US Government dollar bonds. For the average Chinese person, they are worth less than the paper they're printed on.

The Chinese military and associated institutions have undeclared budgets. This is a widely accepted fact. India has no such foresight, this is also a widely accepted fact.

I didn't know China has 104% literacy. Social problems? Yeah agreed, that comes with being a diverse nation, China is overwhelmingly Han Chinese.

China has long ago achieved deterrence against the US and any other nations, why do you keep investing in the military? Let me guess, is that a part of being a sovereign nation?

I'm Australian, I have signed a contract that officially makes me a member of the Royal Australian Air Force. I'm not a nationalistic Indian, though I obviously have very close ties with it. China is the main reason, my family and I have become prosperous today. I have only good intentions towards your country.

China and India are very much in a similar boat, China being recently more prosperous. Nobody is denying that post independent India has had some very poor political leadership, all indications are that this is going to change with the elections in 2014, expect Sino-Indian relations to skyrocket from then.
 
India was under foreign rule for 200 years, if that's not a reason for a strong defense then I don't know what is. Millions died under British rule because of purposeful mismanagement. (Read Bengal famine).

Who can China call good friends in the world? Pakistan and North Korea, hardly the best of company. If you look beyond recent international interest because of economic prosperity, most of the world has a poor view of China and it's political systems. India also has only two neighbours with territorial disputes.

You call a GDP per capita in your top cities of 15k USD "on par with developed countries"? That's less than my monthly pay and I'm a 20 year old student. (We're not counting HK/Macau as they're outside PRC's political jurisdiction)

Your foreign reserves are mostly US Government dollar bonds. For the average Chinese person, they are worth less than the paper they're printed on.

The Chinese military and associated institutions have undeclared budgets. This is a widely accepted fact. India has no such foresight, this is also a widely accepted fact.

I didn't know China has 104% literacy. Social problems? Yeah agreed, that comes with being a diverse nation, China is overwhelmingly Han Chinese.

China has long ago achieved deterrence against the US and any other nations, why do you keep investing in the military? Let me guess, is that a part of being a sovereign nation?

I'm Australian, I have signed a contract that officially makes me a member of the Royal Australian Air Force. I'm not a nationalistic Indian, though I obviously have very close ties with it. China is the main reason, my family and I have become prosperous today. I have only good intentions towards your country.

China and India are very much in a similar boat, China being recently more prosperous. Nobody is denying that post independent India has had some very poor political leadership, all indications are that this is going to change with the elections in 2014, expect Sino-Indian relations to skyrocket from then.

What a warped analogy! Did you fight the British as a nation? No. Your were a mix mash of different kingdoms, Mughals, Maratha....It was thanks to the British that modern India become as one big country. Did you fight any superpower? If you want an intellectual discussion, pls be more impartial in drawing an analogy.

Also, it seems you're not spared from the usual indian delusion syndrome. Besides Pakistan and North Korea, you forgot to add Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Kazakhstan to the list. We'd even resolved out border dispute with Russia. What abt India? ZERO, none of your neighbors like India before of your foreign policy.
Yes, you have 2 dispute but you only have 6 neighbors. We also have 2 disputes but we have 14 neighbors.

Top tier city GDP is on par with many developed countries, if I wrote per capita, it's a typo. That's was meant for comparison with India.
We buy US government bonds because we don't have a better option of investing money, they're still the largest economy. 3rd largest economy Japan does the same. And if you factor in the undervalued Yuan, we are worth more than the papers. So stop your delusion.

CHinese military spending undeclared? How dumb are you going to go? Those figures are complied by international defense anlaylsts. If that's fake, our $3 trillion is fake too. If anything , with India's corruption, the figures are even more unreliable, but I'm not to make such baseless attack like you.

How well do you know history? We have always been a sovereign country, even during imperialism era and WW2. And didn't I say no country is going to simply dump their arsenal because there's no immediate threat? You understand national policy?

China and India were never really in similar boat, from ancient history to imperialism and modern era. Poverty of the older days are not exclusive to China and India, all asian countries were poor then. The only similarity is our huge population.

So you're an Australian Indian, no wonder you're so ignorant of India's foreign policy.
 
None of the missiles in India's arsenal are indigenous, they are all downgraded Russian tech transfers built with foreign components. India cannot build their own missiles using their own components, this is a fact.

Deal with it! :coffee:
 
What a warped analogy! Did you fight the British as a nation? No. Your were a mix mash of different kingdoms, Mughals, Maratha....It was thanks to the British that modern India become as one big country. Did you fight any superpower? If you want an intellectual discussion, pls be more impartial in drawing an analogy.

Also, it seems you're not spared from the usual indian delusion syndrome. Besides Pakistan and North Korea, you forgot to add Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos and Kazakhstan to the list. We'd even resolved out border dispute with Russia. What abt India? ZERO, none of your neighbors like India before of your foreign policy.
Yes, you have 2 dispute but you only have 6 neighbors. We also have 2 disputes but we have 14 neighbors.

Top tier city GDP is on par with many developed countries, if I wrote per capita, it's a typo. That's was meant for comparison with India.
We buy US government bonds because we don't have a better option of investing money, they're still the largest economy. 3rd largest economy Japan does the same. And if you factor in the undervalued Yuan, we are worth more than the papers. So stop your delusion.

CHinese military spending undeclared? How dumb are you going to go? Those figures are complied by international defense anlaylsts. If that's fake, our $3 trillion is fake too. If anything , with India's corruption, the figures are even more unreliable, but I'm not to make such baseless attack like you.

How well do you know history? We have always been a sovereign country, even during imperialism era and WW2. And didn't I say no country is going to simply dump their arsenal because there's no immediate threat? You understand national policy?

China and India were never really in similar boat, from ancient history to imperialism and modern era. Poverty of the older days are not exclusive to China and India, all asian countries were poor then. The only similarity is our huge population.

So you're an Australian Indian, no wonder you're so ignorant of India's foreign policy.

Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Kazakhstan may have good relations with China as is the case with most nations including India, but they're hardly 'good friends'. Disputes have resolved with Russia, that also doesn't mean you guys are now 'friends'. Russia and India are 'good friends'. As is Israel, most of the West, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal etc

Don't take this forum to be some sort of a good indicator of ground realities. Most Indian neighbours love theplace, whether the ones on this forum admit it or not, Indian cultural influence is rampant across the entire subcontinent.

Yes well, Mumbai has a GDP of 200B+ which is comparable to other large cities worldwide. US Government Bonds are not currency, they are simply a promise from the US Government to pay you that sum of money at some point in the future. If they decide to simply default, there really won't be much China can do, most credit rating agencies will only downgrade the US a couple of notches. Their economy will thank the GoUS for it, your economy however will tank, as much of those bonds are used as backing for Chinese internal debt.

Those same 'international defense analyst' also agree that China does have an undeclared military budget/s. And yes, I agree, no nation is going to dump their arsenal, or stop modernization because of a lack of an immediate threat. This applies to China as well as India.

Japan wasn't poor.

India has been a sovereign country (albeit occupied) for much of the British era as well as the 66 years following. Prior to that the concept of a nation-state was alien to much of Asia and was limited mostly to the USA and Western Europe. However there were multiple instances in history where India was united under a single ruler/kingdom. The land of Bharat has long been a solid concept.

I can see now you're only going to look at everything I say through red-tinted glasses. You fail to understand that I probably have a greater stake in China than you, I may be Indian but the prosperity of China and it's economy is inextricably linked to that of myself and my family, I have no reason to make up stories. This will be my final reply on this thread :) Ciao
 
None of the missiles in India's arsenal are indigenous, they are all downgraded Russian tech transfers built with foreign components. India cannot build their own missiles using their own components, this is a fact.

Deal with it! :coffee:

we are dealing with it already..that is why ur a$$ is burning!!
 
Lmao, poor guys are burning inside about the recent launches.

I hope these haters sit back and take a massive sh*t on themselves when they see K-4 ripping out of the ocean. And Arihant launching the K-15.:laughcry:
 
You must be still living under a rock for the past many years because Portugal is already thrown out of Macau !



You mean like India stealing nuke technology from Canada's Candu Reactors and then labeling it indigenous ?

they tested their multi megaton fart in 1963. Honkong was released in 1998 and Macau in 1999. Full 36 years after they done testing their so called megaton farts ! Now see the reason jonny ?

If u stop cheerleading for a second you would realize why Japan doesn't give a monkey's nut sack about china's fake weapons and continue to grab islands like they did in WW-II :woot:
 
None of the missiles in India's arsenal are indigenous, they are all downgraded Russian tech transfers built with foreign components. India cannot build their own missiles using their own components, this is a fact.

Deal with it! :coffee:

Can you prove your claims??:omghaha:

Oh wait,your countrymen are claiming that India doesnt even have Solid fuel production plants for its missiles
 
Haq's Musings??? :woot: :omghaha: :rofl: And you guys are taking this clown seriously? He keeps farting nonsense at regular intervals and his 'musings' are lapped up by the sheeple as if there's no tomorrow!!

He's in the league of clowns such as Zaid Hamid and Co.

Next.
 
I don't know why these pakistanis and chinese keep posting these dumb threads .

The BS points raised in these threads will be countered with proofs and they will be embarrassed like every time .

Looks like they have an affinity for embarrassment .
 

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