Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[Nahraf]

"This year, the MiG-29 is competing against the JF-17/FC-1 for an Egyptian tender of 32 fighters. The FSMTC has already approved the re-export of RD-93 engines if China wins the Egyptian tender."

Farnborough 2010 - Defense News Show Scout – Russia Fears Competition From Chinese Fighter Jets

The Foreign Service for Military-Technical Corporation (FSMTC) of Russia has already approved the re-export of RD-93 yo Egypt then this just a drama to keep Indians happy till next year. Over 200 RD-93 have already been exported and that will keep Pakistan busy manufacturing JF-17 for next three years.

i dont think so cause pakistan wants to sell thunder and with that money they wants to purchase new 4.5 or 5th gen Aircraft..

Which fighters Pakistan plans to purchase ? The Indian MRCA losers or Chinese fighters ? India is forcing MRCA suppliers jump through hoops and the losers will be angry enough to give a Pakistan a good deal on 36-60 fighters.

 

[araz]

Hi,

You are right----the J 10 would possibly be restricted to china and pakistan---as you mentioned for at least another 5 + years.

Now coming to the single and dual engine issue---it depends on the marketing and sales dept of each individual country and what kind of package they can offer.

Nations may want to buy aircraft for show and force projection----they want to make a statement to their neighbours---. It will be really really interesting to see where the Jf 17 is headed in 2 years time period and the J 10 in 5 years.

Brother
You hit the nail on the head. We wont get any orders from airforces that buy aircrafts for(shall we put it appropriately!!) political reasons. However this is likely to change as China is emerging as an international power house in its own rights.At the end of the day we are projecting ourselves by "piggy backing " on the crest of the chinese influence.
You are right on the single/dual engined issue .To add to this i would say it is the overall area, and finances of a nation which will determine its choice. UK inspite of its area chose Typhoon keeping the cold war in mind, and may have suffered for it, while Swedes chose to stick to gripen.USA chooses acombination of 1and 2 engined aircrafts but uses air to air refueling for force projection.This is also a probable financial decision.they seem to continue this trend with F22and F35 as well.
Russia has vast terrain which requires twin engined aircrafts and to the best of my knowledge they have not produced a single engined one for decades. China on the other hand , as well as India are going towards a combination.
How things progress depend on how China advnces its technological base. PAFs reserves and buying power is small so the development impetus will come from China.Our contribution will continue to be a provision of the interface with the west which they currently lack due to sanctions. So our contacts and input will continue to be valuable for some time to come.
Araz

 

[karan.1970]

i dont think so cause pakistan wants to sell thunder and with that money they wants to purchase new 4.5 or 5th gen Aircraft..

at approx $ 5 mill profit per plane (extremely optimistic for a $ 15-20 million plabe) split between CHina and Pakistan means that you need to sell 25 thunders to buy one 4.5 gen plane like F 18 SH or even Gripen..

Dont think that strategy adds up...

 

[araz]

From my understanding (may be wrong), the new Chinese engines (WS-13, WS-12, etc) are designed to boast higher performance and better reliability than the current RD-93. So either way, an engine change in JF-17 should only improve its performance; perhaps not optimally as with another Western or Russian engine, but well within what PAF requires from Thunder.

mark
China is yet new to this market and it is a complicated piece of kit.No doubt it will have teething problems and will take time to mature the tech. it wont happen overnight. We therefore have a hiatus of a half a decade.The problem is how to fill this hiatus.
the way I look at it is that China is quitely outflanking Russia. It is forcing (by its continuous strides) the russians into offering it their best.The current news of stoppage was also refuted by the russians and now it may be that China ups its game and makes a request for RD93B with more thrust. it would be difficult in the current climate of PAFs need to deny a juicy offer like that.
In the long run China will catch up and I do not foresee any problems post 2015.
My 2 apisas worth.
Araz

 

[araz]

at approx $ 5 mill profit per plane (extremely optimistic for a $ 15-20 million plabe) split between CHina and Pakistan means that you need to sell 25 thunders to buy one 4.5 gen plane like F 18 SH or even Gripen..

Dont think that strategy adds up...

When you want to make a mark on the industry , it matters little what you make.Once your reputation is established, you can demand the price for it. This has always been the way of the business man, and the chinese are consumate buisnessmen.
Regards
Araz

 

[conworldus]

at approx $ 5 mill profit per plane (extremely optimistic for a $ 15-20 million plabe) split between CHina and Pakistan means that you need to sell 25 thunders to buy one 4.5 gen plane like F 18 SH or even Gripen..

Dont think that strategy adds up...

I fail to understand the logic. So 25% net profit margin is bad?

If you sell a Tshirt that gets $2 dollar in profit, you shouldn't do because you need to sell 100 million of this to buy a Boeing 787. So I guess this strategy doesn't add up.

If you are jealous just say it. I am sorry but no one has expressed interest to buy your LCA, whether you can make 1, or 5 million each plane.

 

[Nishan_101]

I want to tell everyone a thing that the money that PAC/Pakistan will receive will be 50% of the total profit & it'll be invested in its future development and as well as making our own JV in Avionics and Weapons. So don't worry that money should be invested in U.S or E.U 4.5++ Generation aircraft.

 

[karan.1970]

When you want to make a mark on the industry , it matters little what you make.Once your reputation is established, you can demand the price for it. This has always been the way of the business man, and the chinese are consumate buisnessmen.
Regards
Araz

I fail to understand the logic. So 25% net profit margin is bad?

If you sell a Tshirt that gets $2 dollar in profit, you shouldn't do because you need to sell 100 million of this to buy a Boeing 787. So I guess this strategy doesn't add up.

If you are jealous just say it. I am sorry but no one has expressed interest to buy your LCA, whether you can make 1, or 5 million each plane.

Guys, you need to read the post to which I responded. As I said JF 17 is a fine plane. The point I was making was that Pakistan will dedicate its line to produce JF 17s for its own air force for next few years. To which one of the members responded that Pakistan instead will sell Thunders and by 4.5 gen planes from the profit. My post was simply trying to say that this approach doesnt add up

@conworldus...

Yes, selling T shirts to generate profits to buy a 787, when your production line can only produce 25 T-Shirts an year doesnt add up..As a wise man once said... Reading before typing (actually it was listening before speaking) avoids foot in mouth syndrome..

 

[SQ8]

Weird logic, but if one is to consider the prospects for selling the thunder then it seems to add up.
1. Sell the Thunder via licensed production( Egypt??).. make a good profit.. and say earn enough via 3 to 4 thunders to be able to afford 1 4.5 gen( on loan off course.. down payment )

2. Sell from the production lines of PAC and CATIC, one from here two for there.. etc. It will most definitely effect the procurement for the PAF unless the production capacity for Kamra is increased.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

A Lots of people are too much into profit right now----even if pakistan dosnot make any profit----but it assembles and manufactures planes for an X nation----pakistan is still coming out ahead----it is still making profit in a way---.

What will happen is that with a new order---there will be expansion---with expansion---there will be job creation. So, as long as the jobs are being created and people are being employed and one more household has an earning member---that is profit.

That is how you have to look at thing for a newly formed business---people are not going to pay you profit from day one---.

I apologize again---how can I do that---there is no profit in manufacturing this kind of item----you make profit on parts---after sales service---accessories---weapons systems---electronic package---. That is where all the money is---.

At first you have to have a captive audience---you have to make the sale first---once they own your product---then they will pay for the goodies---. So---in order for pakistan to make money----they will have to have systems available for this aircraft.

Let us not count the chicken before they eggs are hatched.

 

[bc040400065]

 

[ANG]

Hi, Pakistan should concentrate on its own production and also on future upgrades. Making a few dollars on some sales will not change what the PAF faces across the border. Let's not get too greedy and first settle down on a production version of the JF-17 and then worry about potential sales. Remember in regards to production, the PAF is starting to just walk, not run. Thanks!

 

[hataf]

Hi, Pakistan should concentrate on its own production and also on future upgrades. Making a few dollars on some sales will not change what the PAF faces across the border. Let's not get too greedy and first settle down on a production version of the JF-17 and then worry about potential sales. Remember in regards to production, the PAF is starting to just walk, not run. Thanks!

man military agreement does not complete in days . . . .
if some country start negotiating for JFT now . . . . .
the delivery may be started after 2015 . . . . . . .

so chill out . . . . . . five years are more than enough to expand the production line . . . . . . .

PAC also have F-6 Rebuild factory once F-6 are replaced with jf-17 that factory can easily be converted into JFT production facility

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Hi, Pakistan should concentrate on its own production and also on future upgrades. Making a few dollars on some sales will not change what the PAF faces across the border. Let's not get too greedy and first settle down on a production version of the JF-17 and then worry about potential sales. Remember in regards to production, the PAF is starting to just walk, not run. Thanks!

No, No, No Sir jee No. Please look at the following logic about early marketing:

1. We will be able to fill the gap in the international market that exists at the moment (i.e. a good, effective and Cheap fighter jet - not many are around at the moment).

2. If JF-17 is used by many countries at the same time then it will help its evolution and frame maturity. The data collected from different parts of the world (different pilots, different weathers etc) will be very useful for PAF and PLAAF.

3. PAF can raise cash and can buy expensive equipment from international market (radars, engines, armaments etc) and in this way future batches of JF-17 can be improved quickly.

 

[ANG]

Dear Misters "Dil Pakistan" & "Hataf", you have converted me with your arguments. Given the adequate resources and funding and necessary demand for the product, the PAF can easily ramp up JF-17 production and/or open a second line. Thanks!