Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

JFT airframe has no limitations persay---. It is designed for the utility and uses its space well for the purpose it was designed for---.

Son---8 / 9 g are for clean configuration----loaded aircraft will barely touch 6 /7 g's---. Even a loaded F15 could barely touch 5 / 5.5 g's.

There is no issue with thrust to weight ratio either---.

This aircraft has a great spool up time---. It gets in the air and to 5000 feet faster than many other aircraft to get to a position of strength---. Its engine is very responsive when asked for power.

Its BVR is very capable and now the off bore sight missile as well---.

So---is the AK-47 less deadly than the AR-15 or the CZ Bren---or the Sig---.

I feel like our JFT is a repurposed F-22 Raptor "P" for Pakistan! If the JF-17 was such a top notch fighter jet, and was fulfilling all of our needs, why did we, a cash strapped nation currently, decide to go for J-10CE? And kept asking the Americans to upgrade the F-16's and even get more used with AMRAAM C-7 (and we'd love D's)? It would be a perfect and the cheapest situation if our current assembly line could solve all of our needs with JFT but that's not the case. Clearly, many people in PAF planning knew better than your argument.

JFT is doing an excellent job to provide a deterrence that's sanction free with latest Radar and Weapons with open architecture to integrate whatever we want to! This is where you and I are saying the same thing in different ways. But it has limitations, period. And since the PAF knows it has limitations, they went the J-10CE way. I'm just saying we standardize the J-10CE, take it to even stealth if we have to and use an internal (cheaper) assembly line to license build it saving billions due to economies of scale and local labor (even at 50-60% internalization) vs. buying 72-90 package, paying everything to the Chinese and later STILL pay to develop a rebuild factory when an assembly line can automatically become a rebuild factory later.

Can sledge hammers kill humans when hit right? just like a bullet from an AR or AK-47 rifles or a Sig-P226 pistol's bullet? They all kill, period. Should we know start fielding people with hammers instead of JFT or J-10CE? I think I'm done with this argument.

 

[MastanKhan]

I feel like our JFT is a repurposed F-22 Raptor "P" for Pakistan! If the JF-17 was such a top notch fighter jet, and was fulfilling all of our needs, why did we, a cash strapped nation currently, decide to go for J-10CE? And kept asking the Americans to upgrade the F-16's and even get more used with AMRAAM C-7 (and we'd love D's)? It would be a perfect and the cheapest situation if our current assembly line could solve all of our needs with JFT but that's not the case. Clearly, many people in PAF planning knew better than your argument.

JFT is doing an excellent job to provide a deterrence that's sanction free with latest Radar and Weapons with open architecture to integrate whatever we want to! This is where you and I are saying the same thing in different ways. But it has limitations, period. And since the PAF knows it has limitations, they went the J-10CE way. I'm just saying we standardize the J-10CE, take it to even stealth if we have to and use an internal (cheaper) assembly line to license build it saving billions due to economies of scale and local labor (even at 50-60% internalization) vs. buying 72-90 package, paying everything to the Chinese and later STILL pay to develop a rebuild factory when an assembly line can automatically become a rebuild factory later.

Can sledge hammers kill humans when hit right? just like a bullet from an AR or AK-47 rifles or a Sig-P226 pistol's bullet? They all kill, period. Should we know start fielding people with hammers instead of JFT or J-10CE? I think I'm done with this argument.

Hi,

If the F35 was such a superstar aircraft then why did the US military order more F15's and maybe F16's as well---.

Limitations are a function of any design---. Even larger aircraft have limitations---because you cannot put on " more Larger " equipment on them---. Understanding those limitations & then coming up solutions is always the way to go---.

Unless the you are the US of A---no other nation has engineering industrial base to solve all their needs---& even the US has the mindset that if it is not 2 generations ahead of the enemy---it feels it has started to lose its edge.

The level of utility is tiered---for us---for china---ussr---britain---france or even if it is the USA---. For that reason---we have guns of different calibres---vehicles with different dimensions---aircrafts for different sizes for different operations and capabi;lities---. There is no one size fits all---.

It looks like I am teaching a 1st year college class---.

JFT and F16's---were an optimum vessel against the enemy's capability---.

But when the enemy tiered up its capability to the matured up Rafale---we also tiered up our capability to the matured up J-10C---.

Why we did not do it to the JFT---. Because we wanted to wait and see what the rafale offered and what we would need to counter it---. That is what we are doing to the BLK 3---.

Our main opponent has the choice of going to the open market and buying mature integrated technology---.

We are in a position to do so as well---plus with the JFT---we can change directions in MIDSTRIDE and do the upgrades to our satisfaction and needs---.

So---now as we can counter the enemy's procurement---we can stay even or ahead of him even with our small resources---.

The JFT has given us the opportunity to stay in league with the enemy resources---. Because of lower cost factor---we can do needed upgrades to make aircraft more capable much sooner than the enemy could

 

[Sanwal!!]

Hi,

If the F35 was such a superstar aircraft then why did the US military order more F15's and maybe F16's as well---.

Limitations are a function of any design---. Even larger aircraft have limitations---because you cannot put on " more Larger " equipment on them---. Understanding those limitations & then coming up solutions is always the way to go---.

Unless the you are the US of A---no other nation has engineering industrial base to solve all their needs---& even the US has the mindset that if it is not 2 generations ahead of the enemy---it feels it has started to lose its edge.

The level of utility is tiered---for us---for china---ussr---britain---france or even if it is the USA---. For that reason---we have guns of different calibres---vehicles with different dimensions---aircrafts for different sizes for different operations and capabi;lities---. There is no one size fits all---.

It looks like I am teaching a 1st year college class---.

JFT and F16's---were an optimum vessel against the enemy's capability---.

But when the enemy tiered up its capability to the matured up Rafale---we also tiered up our capability to the matured up J-10C---.

Why we did not do it to the JFT---. Because we wanted to wait and see what the rafale offered and what we would need to counter it---. That is what we are doing to the BLK 3---.

Our main opponent has the choice of going to the open market and buying mature integrated technology---.

We are in a position to do so as well---plus with the JFT---we can change directions in MIDSTRIDE and do the upgrades to our satisfaction and needs---.

So---now as we can counter the enemy's procurement---we can stay even or ahead of him even with our small resources---.

The JFT has given us the opportunity to stay in league with the enemy resources---. Because of lower cost factor---we can do needed upgrades to make aircraft more capable much sooner than the enemy could

You articulate the rationale better than others. Thanks

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

If the F35 was such a superstar aircraft then why did the US military order more F15's and maybe F16's as well---.

Limitations are a function of any design---. Even larger aircraft have limitations---because you cannot put on " more Larger " equipment on them---. Understanding those limitations & then coming up solutions is always the way to go---.

Unless the you are the US of A---no other nation has engineering industrial base to solve all their needs---& even the US has the mindset that if it is not 2 generations ahead of the enemy---it feels it has started to lose its edge.

The level of utility is tiered---for us---for china---ussr---britain---france or even if it is the USA---. For that reason---we have guns of different calibres---vehicles with different dimensions---aircrafts for different sizes for different operations and capabi;lities---. There is no one size fits all---.

It looks like I am teaching a 1st year college class---.

JFT and F16's---were an optimum vessel against the enemy's capability---.

But when the enemy tiered up its capability to the matured up Rafale---we also tiered up our capability to the matured up J-10C---.

Why we did not do it to the JFT---. Because we wanted to wait and see what the rafale offered and what we would need to counter it---. That is what we are doing to the BLK 3---.

Our main opponent has the choice of going to the open market and buying mature integrated technology---.

We are in a position to do so as well---plus with the JFT---we can change directions in MIDSTRIDE and do the upgrades to our satisfaction and needs---.

So---now as we can counter the enemy's procurement---we can stay even or ahead of him even with our small resources---.

The JFT has given us the opportunity to stay in league with the enemy resources---. Because of lower cost factor---we can do needed upgrades to make aircraft more capable much sooner than the enemy could

So you repeated the same stuff in the 3rd long post that I said in the first one: JFT is necessary and so is J-10C. I'm just trying to suggest that instead of buying 1 or 2 batches and a few years down the road spend money on setting up a rebuild factory, act smart, start out with local assembly / license production and save critical funds from the national treasure and we'd have build a local industry around J-10CE's airframe / avionics / parts, etc.

Later, this one time cost based production setup will become the rebuild factory automatically when J-10CE production batches will be done. This would mean that we produce the JFT block III all the way and stop and move to J-10C local assembly. That's it.

You've spent so much time and energy just to argue for the sake of arguments and that's unproductive. We are both saying the same thing! So what's there to argue about?

Bringing in the US and F-35 / F-16/ F-15 is confusing the readers and the details of these have nothing to do with the JFT and J-10CE. I can explain why but it's not needed here. Hopefully the case is closed.

 

[Trango Towers]

I feel like our JFT is a repurposed F-22 Raptor "P" for Pakistan! If the JF-17 was such a top notch fighter jet, and was fulfilling all of our needs, why did we, a cash strapped nation currently, decide to go for J-10CE? And kept asking the Americans to upgrade the F-16's and even get more used with AMRAAM C-7 (and we'd love D's)? It would be a perfect and the cheapest situation if our current assembly line could solve all of our needs with JFT but that's not the case. Clearly, many people in PAF planning knew better than your argument.

JFT is doing an excellent job to provide a deterrence that's sanction free with latest Radar and Weapons with open architecture to integrate whatever we want to! This is where you and I are saying the same thing in different ways. But it has limitations, period. And since the PAF knows it has limitations, they went the J-10CE way. I'm just saying we standardize the J-10CE, take it to even stealth if we have to and use an internal (cheaper) assembly line to license build it saving billions due to economies of scale and local labor (even at 50-60% internalization) vs. buying 72-90 package, paying everything to the Chinese and later STILL pay to develop a rebuild factory when an assembly line can automatically become a rebuild factory later.

Can sledge hammers kill humans when hit right? just like a bullet from an AR or AK-47 rifles or a Sig-P226 pistol's bullet? They all kill, period. Should we know start fielding people with hammers instead of JFT or J-10CE? I think I'm done with this argument.

Oh good lord why the same question again and again and again

Why does France have so many different aircraft
Why does America have f15, f16, f18, f35, f22
Why does uk have so many fighters.

Why don't people engage their brains before their keyboard ?????

 

[Horse_Rider]

Oh good lord why the same question again and again and again

Why does France have so many different aircraft
Why does America have f15, f16, f18, f35, f22
Why does uk have so many fighters.

Why don't people engage their brains before their keyboard ?????

You essentially repeated what was in my post!

Please enlighten me what is the "same question again and again"? I, you and Mr. Mastan are saying the same thing. i.e. we NEED multiple jets. JFT did what it was supposed to do, J-10CE is the next step and makes the Hi of the "Hi/Lo" combination. Mr. Mastak was saying earlier about how credible the JFT is (no disagreements there) to which I responded that we have J-10C as a higher performing asset. No denying that fact either. So what's there to argue about?

France, UK, America don't fit here and that's a different topic all together, not going to waste my time on it.

 

[Trango Towers]

Please enlighten me what is the "same question again and again"? Let's see what I missed. I'm saying the same thing you are stating above and Mr. MastanKhan was stating, i.e. we NEED multiple jets. JFT did what it was supposed to do, J-10CE is the next step and makes the Hi of the "Hi/Lo" combination. France, UK, America don't fit here and that's a different topic all together, not going to waste my time on it. But do outline the "question". I'm shocked to see people can still find arguments when we are saying the same thing lol

OK different fighters to fit different roles.
Light weight
Medium weight

 

[Horse_Rider]

OK different fighters to fit different roles.
Light weight
Medium weight

Yes, that was stated in Line 3 of my post you quoted, referring to Hi / Lo combination

 

[Trango Towers]

Yes, that was stated in Line 3 of my post you quoted, referring to Hi / Lo combination

So why r u asking tye stupid question? Jf17 is a light weight fighter ??

 

[MastanKhan]

So you repeated the same stuff in the 3rd long post that I said in the first one: JFT is necessary and so is J-10C. I'm just trying to suggest that instead of buying 1 or 2 batches and a few years down the road spend money on setting up a rebuild factory, act smart, start out with local assembly / license production and save critical funds from the national treasure and we'd have build a local industry around J-10CE's airframe / avionics / parts, etc.

Later, this one time cost based production setup will become the rebuild factory automatically when J-10CE production batches will be done. This would mean that we produce the JFT block III all the way and stop and move to J-10C local assembly. That's it.

You've spent so much time and energy just to argue for the sake of arguments and that's unproductive. We are both saying the same thing! So what's there to argue about?

Bringing in the US and F-35 / F-16/ F-15 is confusing the readers and the details of these have nothing to do with the JFT and J-10CE. I can explain why but it's not needed here. Hopefully the case is closed.

Hi,

You need to start writing in smaller paragraphs---and in a simpler form of diction---.

There is too much confusion in what you want to say----.

You articulate the rationale better than others. Thanks

Hi,

It is more about you understanding what is being said---.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Hi,

You need to start writing in smaller paragraphs---and in a simpler form of diction---.

There is too much confusion in what you want to say----.


Hi,

It is more about you understanding what is being said---.

There was no need to bring in confusion by going nuts on JFT without comprehending the subject, and then bring in US F-35, F-15, F-16, totally irrelevant to how Pakistan acquires military hardware.

But just to reiterate so there is no confusion: The proposal was to local assemble J-10C, standardize it across the PAF as the "hi" of the Hi/Lo (low being the JFT), and come up with future variants locally (with Chinese help and be worry free if relations with China goes south in the future). This will allow us to have a local industry around J-10C even with 50-60% advance aircraft and systems manufacturing capability.

Otherwise, we'd spend the same amount of money on a "rebuild factory" ten years from now, vs. buying a manufacturing line today and roll the cost of 72-90 into a local assembly JV. We can then increase the J-10C numbers for PAF also as per unit cost will decrease under local assembly scenario even with limited ToT.

 

[Horse_Rider]

So why r u asking tye stupid question? Jf17 is a light weight fighter ??

Are you asking me or are you telling me ? Is JFT is a light fighter? I know very well what JFT is but I'm not sure if I understand your questions for the 2nd time. How about you write a bit in detail as to what's your real question?

 

[araz]

Are you asking me or are you telling me ? Is JFT is a light fighter? I know very well what JFT is but I'm not sure if I understand your questions for the 2nd time. How about you write a bit in detail as to what's your real question?

I think unless your requirement exceeds 150 aircrafts the assembly will not be a viable option financially. The other question is the technical capability at hand to assemble the J10C and the Chinese willingness to let you do so.
A

 

[Reichmarshal]

BMW is a terrible car to own---. Extremely unreliable---extremely expensive---fun to drive---but NO UTILITY---.

My experience with bmw is u cant own any bmw more then 3 years old...their spares r expensive n so is the labor....a very cash intensive machine.....not a good example to quote

 

[Reichmarshal]

I feel like our JFT is a repurposed F-22 Raptor "P" for Pakistan! If the JF-17 was such a top notch fighter jet, and was fulfilling all of our needs, why did we, a cash strapped nation currently, decide to go for J-10CE? And kept asking the Americans to upgrade the F-16's

Maray bhai we have more then 200 ac to replace...now at the current production rate of our jf 17 thunder ...it would take PAF more then a decade to replace them. But the threat from India is now not a decade from now......hence the off the shelf purchase of j10 to meet the threat n increase our capability.
We are looking for used f16 n if PAF can aquire them then that would make an immediate impact in lifting our capability plus PAF has the experience n the support infrastructure, so theirs no familiarization time. The only way PAF will go for new f16 is if they come from the money owed by the u.s to Pakistan under csf....other then that PAF is not buying.
Theirs no problem with the thunder, its n excellent fighter tailor made for PAF.