EXCLUSIVE FIRST VIDEO & IMAGES: Here She Is! D63 Kolkata Destroyer With Indian Navy

[Penguin]

P15A

IN the rear above the hangar are life rafts. Then, as you move forward, what I suspect to be a decoy launcher

 

[Dillinger]

The long-talked about P-15 SLEP upgrade program. Plenty of info is there on the internet.

Anything official? it will take quite a bit of tinkering to get the Delhi classes there.

Although the whole story with the "Barak-ER" needs to be laid to rest, the IN seems to have settled for the 70km range and honestly I don't see an issue with that unless we wish to move in to the SM-2/3 range.

For starters, the fore and aft (the latter's on the hangar) 3S90E SAM launchers will have to be replaced with Barak-8 VLUs, doesn't seem to be a problem, the Russians themselves have models and designs which illustrate that such a move is not impossible. Then the 32 cell Barak-1 module will either be retained or replaced in time with the SR-SAM system. Most of all, the retrofitting of new sensors will not be that easy, the foremast may have to be redesigned, hell will have to be redesigned, and the ship's ability to cater to the enhanced power requirements will have to be assessed among many other things.

@Penguin

Leave all else aside,

what do you think of reports (dunno how substantiated) about retrofitting the Delhi class destroyers with MF-STAR and Barak-8 VLUs (apparently 32 rounds)? Sounds like a tall order personally.

 

[Gessler]

Anything official? it will take quite a bit of tinkering to get the Delhi classes there.

Although the whole story with the "Barak-ER" needs to be laid to rest, the IN seems to have settled for the 70km range and honestly I don't see an issue with that unless we wish to move in to the SM-2/3 range.

For starters, the fore and aft (the latter's on the hangar) 3S90E SAM launchers will have to be replaced with Barak-8 VLUs, doesn't seem to be a problem, the Russians themselves have models and designs which illustrate that such a move is not impossible. Then the 32 cell Barak-1 module will either be retained or replaced in time with the SR-SAM system. Most of all, the retrofitting of new sensors will not be that easy, the foremast may have to be redesigned, hell will have to be redesigned, and the ship's ability to cater to the enhanced power requirements will have to be assessed among many other things.

I only have PSG's claims for it, but the upgrade is part of the roadmap for P-15 Delhi anyway.

How much time do you think it's gonna take to develop the naval version of Maitri (the PDMS)? Because ofcourse,
first the land-based version for Army & Air force needs to be developed & tested...the fact that this missile seems to
share resemblance to the VL MICA comes as a relief, which could considerably reduce development time (although
it remains to be seen if they go in for the same type of seekers or maybe something different).

I believe it might be 2018 at the earliest for ground-based Maitri to complete testing.

 

[Dillinger]

IN the rear above the hangar are life rafts. Then, as you move forward, what I suspect to be a decoy launcher

Could see the deployment of the "Mareech system" in the future on these ships.

I only have PSG's claims for it, but the upgrade is part of the roadmap for P-15 Delhi anyway.

How much time do you think it's gonna take to develop the naval version of Maitri (the PDMS)? Because ofcourse,
first the land-based version for Army & Air force needs to be developed & tested...the fact that this missile seems to
share resemblance to the VL MICA comes as a relief, which could considerably reduce development time (although
it remains to be seen if they go in for the same type of seekers or maybe something different).

I believe it might be 2018 at the earliest for ground-based Maitri to complete testing.

NO IDEA! And PSG can be very right or very wrong, it flips about with him.

 

[Penguin]

Could see the deployment of the "Mareech system" in the future on these ships.

I considered that a possible candidate, instead of a EW decoy launcher. But visually, it doesn't seem to match with what's atop the hangar (but you weren't saying it was ;-)

 

[Dillinger]

@Penguin What about my question regarding the Delhi class destroyers?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin

Leave all else aside,

what do you think of reports (dunno how substantiated) about retrofitting the Delhi class destroyers with MF-STAR and Barak-8 VLUs (apparently 32 rounds)? Sounds like a tall order personally.

(oy, gimme some time to write!)

I don't thnk putting Brahmos on Delhi is difficult but it would involve inclined launchers as were on the trial Kashin. It is hard to tell what would be more cost effective:
a) to put in 2x (2x12 cell ) VLU for Russian VL Shtil missiles and upgrade the associated fire control system , or
b) remove Shtil and all associated equipment altogether and put in Barak-8 and new radar MF Star mainmast.

System cost aside, it depends in part also on the condition of the specific ships, which currently are between 13 and 17 years old and their life expectancy. For example I've read that INS Mumbai is more advanced (nb: in specific ways unknown to me) than the other two vessels in the Delhi Class.

Then again, if you see how e.g. the Turkish navy has upgraded it's OHP's .... with VLU and new radar and GENESIS cms. Those ships are a good 10 ears older.

Then again, if you see how little systematic upgrading the Rajput class got on the whole.

I can picture the upgrade, that's for sure Its like putting a Tales I-mast 400 and Smart-S MK2 on a Perry, or Ceafar/Ceamount on an Anzac (see HMAS Perth, commissioned 2006, upgraded 2010)

Might be an MF STAR alternative ....

 

[Dillinger]

(oy, gimme some time to write!)

I don't thnk putting Brahmos on Delhi is difficult but it would involve inclined launchers as were on the trial Kashin. It is hard to tell what would be more cost effective:
a) to put in 2x (2x12 cell ) VLU for Russian VL Shtil missiles and upgrade the associated fire control system , or
b) remove Shtil and all associated equipment altogether and put in Barak-8 and new radar MF Star mainmast.

System cost aside, it depends in part also on the condition of the specific ships, which currently are between 13 and 17 years old and their life expectancy. For example I've read that INS Mumbai is more advanced (nb: in specific ways unknown to me) than the other two vessels in the Delhi Class.

Then again, if you see how e.g. the Turkish navy has upgraded it's OHP's .... with VLU and new radar and GENESIS cms. Those ships are a good 10 ears older.

I can picture the upgrade, that's for sure

Apologies, I do tend to get impatient.

It would be a rather major capability boost.

The alleged murmurs about the SLEP modifications center around the Barak-8 VLU (32) and the MF-STAR along with a new VSR, that is a rather large task though, even if doable, no? Wouldn't it be about as costly as a new frigate?

 

[Penguin]

Apologies, I do tend to get impatient.

It would be a rather major capability boost.

The alleged murmurs about the SLEP modifications center around the Barak-8 VLU (32) and the MF-STAR along with a new VSR, that is a rather large task though, even if doable, no? Wouldn't it be about as costly as a new frigate?

Well, ... no upgrade is as costly as a new P15A destroyer. As said, installing Brahmos in place of Uran is easy, as is replacing the russian 100mmm with a 76mm. Taking out the 2 single rail launchers is more work but replacing them with 2x8 cell VL Barak 8 is no more difficult or expensive than putting in 2x12 cells for VL Shtil. BUT, ...there is additional cost in removing the 6 Orekh radar directors and the MR-184 gun control radar (over and above upgrading the SHtil weapon controls), removing the foremast and replacing it with an MF Start mast. And the cost of new weaponscontrol stations below decks for Barak 8. A new VSR.... doesn't see necessary, is extra. But once there is an MF Star mast then CAMM or VL Mica are relatively simple to install and integrate options.

 

[Dillinger]

Well, ... no upgrade is as costly as a new P15A destroyer. As said, installing Brahmos in place of Uran is easy, as is replacing the russian 100mmm with a 76mm. Taking out the 2 single rail launchers is more work but replacing them with 2x8 cell VL Barak 8 is no more difficult or expensive than putting in 2x12 cells for VL Shtil. BUT, ...there is additional cost in removing the 6 Orekh radar directors and the MR-184 gun control radar (over and above upgrading the SHtil weapon controls), removing the foremast and replacing it with an MF Start mast. And the cost of new weaponscontrol stations below decks for Barak 8. A new VSR.... doesn't see necessary, is extra. But once there is an MF Star mast then CAMM or VL Mica are relatively simple to install and integrate options.

Honestly something as clean as the Thales i-MAST seems VERY unlikely (not that you expressly mentioned that the Delhi itself will be seeing one of those being slapped on), given that nothing of THAT level is to be seen even on the 15As and to the best of my knowledge even on the 15Bs. A relatively clutter free foremast, yes, but unlikely to be as clean as the i-MAST.

At the end of the day it will boil down to how long the IN wants to keep the Delhi relevant and what role they envisage for it, because a Barak-8+MF-STAR package would bring it right up to the 15As in terms of air defence.

I concur with you though, I was pointing out to Gessler that the VLU and weapons fitment is likely to be easier, but the fitment of the associated sensors and the redesign necessitated by the MF-STAR for the mast might actually be harder. Not to mention that these sensors and assets are best utilized when being run through an appropriately modern command center, as in the heart of the vessel, akin to the Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS) which include Integrated Bridge System as well as Battle Damage System for effective modern warfare, all of this will require a LOT of below the deck work above and beyond the relatively simpler (IMO) plug in of the VLUs.

The HMAS Perth's case, brought up by you, is pretty much the most appropriate analogous example.

To conclude, it would be pretty darned exciting, not to mention it would really add a punch to the current fleet.

 

[Dillinger]

@Abingdonboy

On 23rd December the MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the INR8.80 billion purchase of 262 Barak 1 missiles. 262 missiles, that's a goodly number of ships being put in the line for Barak 1 fitment.

But, before anyone cheers, let this be a test case for how things should NOT be done.

Despite said purchase, the Kolkata sailed in without any Barak 1s for the simple reason that probably when it was being fitted out there was no clarity wrt any future purchases of the said missile system. Since there is no qualified and explicit policy, nor a structured and planned expenditure program in this regard all decisions are pretty much ad hoc (which is EXACTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE!).
In 2006 the ban was imposed after the MoD simply accused Rafael-IAI of paying INR1.74 billion in bribes to senior Indian officials, including a retired IN chief, to secure the Barak tender, the MoD did not initiate any legal procedures, did not set out to prove said allegation in any court, it took an ad hoc decision to simply freeze all purchases (now, mind you, IF they had legitimately made their case and had there been a clear cut policy outlining what to do next, such a move would be laudable) and since there was no corresponding policy outlining any clear cut procedure through which the issue could be resolved there was of course no clarity as to whether it ever would be resolved and if and when the missile systems would be available again, ergo the Kolkata probably got fitted out without any clarity on what might be the future of the system (most likely reason).

@Penguin @Oscar @Contrarian @Bang Galore The above, should truly be a test case for systemic and institutionalized idiocy.

 

[Penguin]

The shadow world: corruption in the arms trade -- New Internationalist
Chapter 1. Corruption and the arms trade: sins of commission — www.sipri.org
Most countries do little to combat corruption in arms trade, study finds | Business | The Guardian
Corruption in the Arms Trade: Money Making in the Shadows - Fair Observer
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/b...-military-industry-fight-corruption.html?_r=0

 

[Dillinger]

The shadow world: corruption in the arms trade -- New Internationalist
Chapter 1. Corruption and the arms trade: sins of commission — www.sipri.org
Most countries do little to combat corruption in arms trade, study finds | Business | The Guardian
Corruption in the Arms Trade: Money Making in the Shadows - Fair Observer
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/b...-military-industry-fight-corruption.html?_r=0

Purchases get scuttled and plans get delayed, BUT the perps are rarely ever punished, the locals who take the bribes rarely ever see a day in court, MOST importantly (in the Indian context) the "agents" of these manufacturers who run amok never get shutdown, yup we've got a system where folks with access to politicians and policy makers get recruited as agents by companies so that they can charge a fee for favorable introductions and interventions on behalf of their patrons.

 

[Indischer]

@Abingdonboy

On 23rd December the MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the INR8.80 billion purchase of 262 Barak 1 missiles. 262 missiles, that's a goodly number of ships being put in the line for Barak 1 fitment.

But, before anyone cheers, let this be a test case for how things should NOT be done.

Despite said purchase, the Kolkata sailed in without any Barak 1s for the simple reason that probably when it was being fitted out there was no clarity wrt any future purchases of the said missile system. Since there is no qualified and explicit policy, nor a structured and planned expenditure program in this regard all decisions are pretty much ad hoc (which is EXACTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE!).
In 2006 the ban was imposed after the MoD simply accused Rafael-IAI of paying INR1.74 billion in bribes to senior Indian officials, including a retired IN chief, to secure the Barak tender, the MoD did not initiate any legal procedures, did not set out to prove said allegation in any court, it took an ad hoc decision to simply freeze all purchases (now, mind you, IF they had legitimately made their case and had there been a clear cut policy outlining what to do next, such a move would be laudable) and since there was no corresponding policy outlining any clear cut procedure through which the issue could be resolved there was of course no clarity as to whether it ever would be resolved and if and when the missile systems would be available again, ergo the Kolkata probably got fitted out without any clarity on what might be the future of the system (most likely reason).

@Penguin @Oscar @Contrarian @Bang Galore The above, should truly be a test case for systemic and institutionalized idiocy.

This calls for a toast!

 

[Penguin]

wtf!?

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