EXCLUSIVE FIRST VIDEO & IMAGES: Here She Is! D63 Kolkata Destroyer With Indian Navy

[Dillinger]

I agree with you, from a political perspective it would be easier for the likes of the NDA to go along with the UPA's blacklistings rather than expose themselves to attack by violating such bans. The NDA did claim they opposed the policy of blacklisting defence entities as a whole so let's see if they put their money where their mouths are.....

I am very much concerned about the RAN-40L's procurement also even for the IAC-1 where an order has been placed, I hope this is still very much on the table.

Given that our CBGs will lack any organic fixed wing AEW&C cover the absence of a long range high capacity 3D VSR will truly make it a "sitting duck", and that's not hyperbole.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Given that our CBGs will lack any organic fixed wing AEW&C cover the absence of a long range high capacity 3D VSR will truly make it a "sitting duck", and that's not hyperbole.

Well, to date the RAN-40L is on order, until we hear otherwise let's not jump to conclusions and get all doom and gloom about the situation sir.

 

[Dillinger]

Well, to date the RAN-40L is on order, until we hear otherwise let's not jump to conclusions and get all doom and gloom about the situation sir.

Not a single low frequency towed array sonar to be found either, for picking out subs hiding in thermal layers, not to mention the other advantages over just a hull mounted sonar, from covering blind spots to providing better signal to noise ratio as the towed sensor is further off from the ship's own generated noise etc. etc.

Damn it, the Kamortas should have had a provision for the ACTAS or any other active low frequency towed sonar array system. That's another thing that might get our CBG into hot water, I do believe some IN ship or other though is going to retro-fitted with the ACTAS.

@Abingdonboy

German firm set to supply sonar systems for Indian Navy - Economic Times


German firm set to supply sonar systems for Indian Navy

GERMANY: German defence firm Atlas Elektroniks is close to signing a deal with India for the supply of low frequency sonar systems for its warships, enabling them to detect enemy submarines, warships and torpedoes from a long range.

The Active Towed Away Sonars (ACTAS) are intended to be mounted on six Indian Navy warships.


These low frequency sonars with active as well as passive operating system would help surface vessels locate enemy submarines, torpedoes and surface ships from a very long range and launch attacks, company officials said here.

"The formalities are almost over and we should be signing a contract soon," the officials said refusing to be identified as the agreement is still being finalised.

The company with over 100 years of experience in maritime technologies is expected to build more ACTAS systems later in India in partnership with Bharat Electronics under Transfer of Technology clause.

ACTAS is designed to operate in deep as well as shallow waters and allows variable depth operations.

While the country's western coast line is shallow, the sea off its eastern coast line is much deeper.

Indian Navy has been exploring various possibilities to build up its capabilities which have suffered a setback due to the sinking of a Russian Kilo class submarine off the Mumbai coast in August.

"The fitting of surface ships with these sonars will considerably augment the Anti-Submarine Warfare capability in these assets. As India's fleet of submarines is barely modest and it will take many years before their numbers see any increase, fitting warships with latest ASW is the next best thing to do," sources said.

ACTAS is the biggest sonar on surface ship and its low frequency programme could detect enemy warships and submarines from a long range.

Company sources said it has a special technological edge in detecting torpedoes and its "automatic torpedo warning" works continuously in the background and automatically generates alerts.

Atlas is already engaged in upgrading over 64 SUT torpedoes, which can be used from all Western platforms, in a deal close to 60 million Euros.

It is also in the process of modernising the four Shishumar class submarines, bought from another German firm HDW, and while two of them have already undergone the upgrade, two others are under the process.

The navy has presently 14 submarines and for all practical purposes not more than eight are in operation mode at one time. While 10 of them are Russian, others were supplied by HDW.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Not a single low frequency towed array sonar to be found either, for picking out subs hiding in thermal layers, not to mention the other advantages over just a hull mounted sonar, from covering blind spots to providing better signal to noise ratio as the towed sensor is further off from the ship's own generated noise etc. etc.

Damn it, the Kamortas should have had a provision for the ACTAS or any other active low frequency towed sonar array system. That's another thing that might get our CBG into hot water, I do believe some IN ship or other though is going to retro-fitted with the ACTAS.

AFAIK this is something the IN has been seriously looking at for a while now but I guess it is yet another procurement tangled up in the mess that is India's defence procurement machine.


I'm equally as concerned about the modern ASW helo or lack thereof on board these ultra-modern warships the IN is now inducting- having 30+ year old Sea King Mk.42Bs flying off billion dollar Frigates and Destroyers like the P-17s and P-15As is an appalling situation and is just as concerning from a CBG perspective. The N-MRH deal is constantly mentioned by the MoD/IN brass but no actual status given- not even which helo has won out.

 

[Dillinger]

AFAIK this is something the IN has been seriously looking at for a while now but I guess it is yet another procurement tangled up in the mess that is India's defence procurement machine.


I'm equally as concerned about the modern ASW helo or lack thereof on board these ultra-modern warships the IN is now inducting- having 30+ year old Sea King Mk.42Bs flying off billion dollar Frigates and Destroyers like the P-17s and P-15As is an appalling situation and is just as concerning from a CBG perspective. The N-MRH deal is constantly mentioned by the MoD/IN brass but no actual status given- not even which helo has won out.

And this is what happens when you rely on non-planned expenditure, do not institute non lapse-able funds, have a RM who runs away the minute he thinks that some allegation might "sully" his reputation etc. etc. Oh and when you do not have a strategic defence review stream lining all your needs, resources and projections. IS THERE AN EMOTICON FOR MURDER!

 

[Abingdonboy]

And this is what happens when you rely on non-planned expenditure, do not institute non lapse-able funds, have a RM who runs away the minute he thinks that some allegation might "sully" his reputation etc. etc. Oh and when you do not have a strategic defence review stream lining all your needs, resources and projections. IS THERE AN EMOTICON FOR MURDER!

Agreed, Antony has truly got India into a colossal hole but I'm pretty optimistic about the situation purely because the NDA has put defence as a priority for them (even if this is merely political talk it is more than the UPA ever did) and because India is in a situation where it can throw money at the problem (not ideal but whilst the procurement system is being refined it will have to do).

Just need to see who becomes the full time Defence Minister now....

 

[Dillinger]

Agreed, Antony has truly got India into a colossal hole but I'm pretty optimistic about the situation purely because the NDA has put defence as a priority for them (even if this is merely political talk it is more than the UPA ever did) and because India is in a situation where it can throw money at the problem (not ideal but whilst the procurement system is being refined it will have to do).

Just need to see who becomes the full time Defence Minister now....

My final conclusion would be this:-

Optimistically, we need-

1) Retro-fitting a better VSR like the RAN-40L on the Kolkata, not going to happen soon since the only possible time for that is the SLEP.

2) Retro-fitting a point defence SAM VLS module in place of the fore CIWS guns like we did with the Delhi class. That will add 32 point defence SAMs, at that point you would be looking at a really decked up ship.

3) For the love of god, upgrading the CIWS itself and ensuring that the Varunastras which were supposed to go on the Kolkata are either sped up in terms of induction/development or replaced with off the shelf procurement (fast procurement for once).

IF, we can see a Delhi class like upgrade on the Kolkata in the next decade's latter half, then even then it will be one of THE most advanced multi-purpose destroyers stalking the seas.

4) MOST importantly, proper procurement of ASW helos, for the love of all that's holy, get it done.

 

[Abingdonboy]

4) MOST importantly, proper procurement of ASW helos, for the love of all that's holy, get it done.

IMHO you need that to happen for this to happen:

then it will be one of THE most advanced multi-purpose destroyers stalking the seas.

Otherwise this will be a huge flaw in the ship going foreword.

I'd say your points are fairly likely to take place given what we have seen with the Delhi class and recent moves by the IN (RFI for new gun-based CIWS) and MoD (removing the bar on BARAK-1 procurements) also one positive we can take is that almost all of these should be addressed for the P-15B.

 

[Dillinger]

@Penguin

What do you think, is it doable?

Upgrading the Kolkatas akin to the Delhi class destroyers, removing the foremost two CIWS guns and replacing them with 2*8 VLS cell modules of a SR-SAM each instead? Would the sacrifice of two CIWS guns have any adverse impact?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin I finally got in touch with someone I knew at the design bureau, there were plans for carrying the Barak-1, in fact the design called for the Barak-1 cells to be placed near the CIWS guns, but for some reason the future procurement of Barak-1 were scuttled by our "sainted" ex def-min.

I didn't bring up the Iver or the de zeven in the context of signature reduction or as a result of your posts, the Iver simply happens to be my favorite ship out in the waters (as silly as that sounds, in terms of aesthetics), not to mention the goodly amount of SAMs it can carry for such a compact design.

Also, clarification required, I thought that the de zeven and the iver are fitted out with the radar designated specifically as the "SMART-L"? The SMART-L is said to detect patrol air crafts out at 400 Km and can even track ballistic missiles, not to mention the ELR software upgrade?

Smart-L is used not only on the Zeven Privincien and Huitfeldt but also on German Sachsen (F124) and - in the S1850M guise - on Type 45, Horizon, Dokdo LPH and QE carrier.

• Max. detection ranges:
  • stealthy missiles: 65 km (35 nmi)
  • maritime patrol aircraft 400 km (220 nmi)
  • Ballistic missiles:1000 km (requires Extended Long Range (ELR) Mode software pgrade, extending the nominal maximum range to 480 km (260 nmi))

• Maximal numbers of target tracks:
  • Air: 1000
  • Sea: 100

A modified SMART-L is produced by BAE Systems Integrated SYstems Technologies and Thales as S1850 . Even a stronger version of the S1850Mis under testing, actually an updated version of the current SMART-L, which the Dutch Navy will call the Smart-L mk2 Radar. This will have an even a greater tracking range of over 800km over sea and 400km into space.

 

[Dillinger]

Smart-L is used not only on the Zeven Privincien and Huitfeldt but also on German Sachsen (F124) and - in the S1850M guise - on Type 45, Horizon, Dokdo LPH and QE carrier.

• Max. detection ranges:
  • stealthy missiles: 65 km (35 nmi)
  • maritime patrol aircraft 400 km (220 nmi)
  • Ballistic missiles:1000 km (requires Extended Long Range (ELR) Mode software pgrade, extending the nominal maximum range to 480 km (260 nmi))

• Maximal numbers of target tracks:
  • Air: 1000
  • Sea: 100

A modified SMART-L is produced by BAE Systems Integrated SYstems Technologies and Thales as S1850 . Even a stronger version of the S1850Mis under testing, actually an updated version of the current SMART-L, which the Dutch Navy will call the Smart-L mk2 Radar. This will have an even a greater tracking range of over 800km over sea and 400km into space.

Damn, and we are stuck with an old 2D radar, even though I'm pining for the RAN-40L, I still would prefer the SMART-L itself.

What do you think of the absence of towed array sonars in most of our surface combatants, hell even on the dedicated ASW vessel? Could you elucidate on the challenges this might throw up for us, specially for the carrier battle group we've been looking forward to?

 

[Penguin]

@Penguin

What do you think, is it doable?

Upgrading the Kolkatas akin to the Delhi class destroyers, removing the foremost two CIWS guns and replacing them with 2*8 VLS cell modules of a SR-SAM each instead? Would the sacrifice of two CIWS guns have any adverse impact?

This would be doable, better in fact than Barak 1. While SRSAM is longer than Barak1 it would not need the Elta radar directors (assuming it uses Mica IRH and/or ARH homing heads). Might even be possible without deleting 2 AK630, come to think of it: put VLU in the spots where Delhi's got the Elta directors.

All, please try to think in decades rather than years when speaking about developing capabilities.

 

[Dillinger]

This would be doable, better in fact than Barak 1. While SRSAM is longer than Barak1 it would not need the Elta radar directors (assuming it uses Mica IRH and/or ARH homing heads). Might even be possible without delecting 2 AK630, come to think of it: put VLU in the spots where Delhi's got the Elta directors.

All, please try to think in decades rather than years when speaking about developing capabilities.

Putting the VLS module where the STGRs are on the Delhi looks like a very tight fit, no? For the life of me I don't even understand why the Barak's need to be limited to a 8 cell count per module, ends up eating more space, integrating those separate modules. Even the Russians seem to have gotten this-

Two contiguous, space optimized VLUs in place of the old 3S90E Shtil launcher fore of the VLU for the AShMs. I count 12 cells per VLU, now that's proper use of real estate, we could do the same on the up coming Project-17A (Shivalik's follow on class) if the NDB and the IN get their act together.

 

[Penguin]

Putting the VLS module where the STGRs are on the Delhi looks like a very tight fit, no? For the life of me I don't even understand why the Barak's need to be limited to a 8 cell count per module, ends up eating more space, integrating those separate modules. Even the Russians seem to have gotten this-

Nobody bothered to do that with MK41 either. Although these days there is the - fairly recently introduced - single cell launcher
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...s/launchers/Single_Cell_Launcher_brochure.pdf

iirc Barak-1 (which happens to have been used in 8-cell VLU modules) uses a scalable VLU, which has a minimum of 2 missiles. This with a view to ease of refitting on ships with little available space. Just that it was not put in pairs doesn't mean it can't. The Naval Insititute Guide states: " Barak is carried in 8-missile cells, and one control system can accommodate up to 32 missiles. Each vertical launch unit can be split into pairs of 2-8 missiles"
The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

This arrangement on the Delhi shows that a 1m longer/taller VLU would be less tall than the top of the structure onto which the Elta director was placed. That structure is an extention outward from the centerline, relative to the Original structure. If the footprint of the 2 Barak VLUs in indicative, you could place 2 VLUs in between the pair of AK630. Or at least one 8 cell VLU turned 90 degrees. Or one can sacrifice two AK630 and follow the pattern in the pic above. Or move one AK630 to the position of the Elta director. Which, if you do that on both sides, bumps your missile load out by at least 16 and possibly 32 IRH/ARH SRSAM.

 

[Penguin]

It is a big space between those two AK630s... imho somwhat larger than on Delhi P15 (due to different torpedo tube arrangement: fixed versus turntable))