EXCLUSIVE FIRST VIDEO & IMAGES: Here She Is! D63 Kolkata Destroyer With Indian Navy

[Dillinger]

Depend on system. Space is also a concern. VLS space is in sufficient.

Exactly what is that supposed to mean? "VLS space is in sufficient"? IF, the below deck space between the primary AShM VLU and the foremost Barak VLUs is as it is being used to store Barak rounds over and above those contained in the VLU cells then its a foolish move, it would be better to utilize that space to house more VLU, which can be done since even a cursory look will show that there is more than enough space for it. There is no system for replenishing those VLUs below deck, the only way a VLU can be replenished is "top down", as in open the cell hatch and stuff a new round down vertically.

Is space the only constraint limiting the number of VLU on a ship?

No, its just one consideration.

My post was in context of the argument that the empty above deck area between the AShM VLU and the Barak VLU houses a below deck storage/container unit for extra Barak 8 rounds which can be used to replenish the VLU (how that is possible, the replenishing in that context, lord alone knows), as such IF the below deck space corresponding to said area is already being used in such a manner AND the above deck space is clearly empty, THEN yes it would be more sensible to add additional VLU in said area instead of trying to house a magazine there.

 

[spectribution]

Exactly what is that supposed to mean? "VLS space is in sufficient"? IF, the below deck space between the primary AShM VLU and the foremost Barak VLUs is as it is being used to store Barak rounds over and above those contained in the VLU cells then its a foolish move, it would be better to utilize that space to house more VLU, which can be done since even a cursory look will show that there is more than enough space for it. There is no system for replenishing those VLUs below deck, the only way a VLU can be replenished is "top down", as in open the cell hatch and stuff a new round down vertically.



No, its just one consideration.

My post was in context of the argument that the empty above deck area between the AShM VLU and the Barak VLU houses a below deck storage/container unit for extra Barak 8 rounds which can be used to replenish the VLU (how that is possible, the replenishing in that context, lord alone knows), as such IF the below deck space corresponding to said area is already being used in such a manner AND the above deck space is clearly empty, THEN yes it would be more sensible to add additional VLU in said area instead of trying to house a magazine there.

There are two different types of VLS there, one UVLM and the other Barak 8 VLS. Both have hell and heaven difference. Spacing becomes a problem for such different cells.

One thing for sure Barak 8 carried is more than 32.

 

[spectribution]

Just remembered something.

This Defence Expo 2014 I spoke to an official who represented L&T. He said the complement is as follows :

1 X 76mm SRGM
4 X 30mm CIWS
2 X RBU 6000
2 X Twin 533mm Torpedo Tube
16 X Brahmos Missile
32 X Barak 8 VLS and the ship carries 16 more Barak 8 as spare.

I think P K Sengupta is right, the ship may carry 48 Barak 8 missiles in total or upto 64.

This source verifies my claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Close-In Warfare System on INS Vikramaditya next yearWill have anti-missile defence system after three yearsAjay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

Goa, June 15
As euphoria over the newly inducted aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya settles down, it is the time for the Navy to equip the warship with two sets of weapons and missile systems.

INS Vikramaditya does not have the Close-In Warfare System (CIWS) and the long range missile firing capability that can pick out targets up to 100 km.

The CIWS is slated to be fitted in April-June 2015 at the Karwar naval base. Sources say the Navy is looking at two options, either the Israeli Barak or the Russian Shitil missiles.

The CIWS system is needed on board large warships as the last protection layer against incoming missiles as well as aircraft. It is like the ships own air-defence system. When deployed, a carrier does not float alone but moves around with a small flotilla of warships. The Navy is banking on ships in the flotilla for air defence support and also for long range missile firing. Some of the Indian warships carry the sea version of the 290 km range hypersonic missile (BrahMos). <<<< (Kolkata Class)

The Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAMs) can be fitted on the warship when it goes for its first re-fit after three years. Fitting the LR-SAM will be a complex procedure and it will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of eight-nine months has been factored in for this, sources said.

The LR-SAM, a joint venture between the Israel’s IAI and India’s DRDO, is still being tested. A series of tests are slated between November and March at the integrated test range, Orissa. The LR-SAM has been designated Barak-8 by the IAI. This can be housed in vertical launch units.

Each such unit will hold eight missiles. The warship could carry up to 32 or 48 LR-SAM’s <<<<< 4 X 8 + 16 extra rounds !

The Israeli company is working at the front section of the LR-SAM, including its seeker head that guides the missile and the warhead. The DRDO is working at the rear section - the rocket motor, the thrust vector control and fins that can be folded.

Meanwhile, the Navy has joined hands with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to set up a shore-based test facility to train pilots. At present, the Navy has around 10 qualified pilots.

MYSTERY SOLVED

 

[Dillinger]

There are two different types of VLS there, one UVLM and the other Barak 8 VLS. Both have hell and heaven difference. Spacing becomes a problem for such different cells.

One thing for sure Barak 8 carried is more than 32.

OK, lets not conflate two different issues here.

There is indeed a difference between the VLU module for the AShMs and the module for the LR-SAMs, no one is disputing that. In fact one of the first topics brought up by my was this very fact and how it might prevent placing the different VLU modules in a more compact combination or scheme. We touched upon whether having a VLU module akin to the Mk.41 might actually lead to an increase in the carrying capacity.

THE ABOVE IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE.


OBSERVE THE FOLLOWING-

Your statement, that the space between the VLU for the AShMs and the VLU for the LR-SAM houses a below deck magazine for extra LR-SAM rounds is the contingent condition.

IF said contingent condition is true then the said space/area/region has the requisite below deck vacancy to accommodate at least 2 more VLUs for the LR-SAM accounting even for the minimum distance one might need to maintain between the AShM VLU module. Under these circumstances it is not a particularly sensible decision.


THE ABOVE, IS STILL LESS IMPORTANT THAN WHAT FOLLOWS.

Assuming that for some reason said area can be used for a below deck magazine for spare rounds but not for additional VLUs, there is no mechanism on the ship for replenishing the LR-SAM VLU modules while at sea and without second party assistance.

The challenges associated with the above-

1) NO VLU MODULE CAN BE RELOADED BELOW DECK, THIS IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE DUE TO THE VERY NATURE OF THE VLU, THAT IT IS A CONTAINERIZED LAUNCHING MODULE.

2) ALL VLUS ARE LOADED FROM THE TOP DOWN, AS STATED BEFORE.

3) POINT NUMBER "3)" RAISES PARTICULAR ISSUES-

a) How will the spare rounds be brought above deck from the below deck magazine?

b) If said rounds are brought up to the main deck, where is the lifting apparatus required to raise said round, and then lower it into the open hatch, believe you me this cannot be done manually at all! @Penguin provided the relevant literature and illustrations for how a ship may effect a VLU reload by itself at sea if it is carrying spare rounds, refer to it and then notice that no such apparatus is present aboard the Kolkata.


A VLU module cannot be reloaded like a naval gun, it is not a firearm's magwell within which a fresh magazine can be jammed once the previous one expends all its rounds, there are no currently existing systems to reload a VLU from within the ship (below deck) itself. It is more akin to a cluster of barrel fed weapons (a weak analogy but the only one applicable in this context).


Now, the next two ships in the same class could very well carry more LR-SAMs by dint of having more VLUs embedded for the same, depending on the Prasun Sengupta or our yellow journalists is never a good idea, take a gander at some of the senior members of BRF (who are not there for the usual TRSP mucking about) who can elucidate on these topics with far more authority than PSG or the journos.

Just remembered something.

This Defence Expo 2014 I spoke to an official who represented L&T. He said the complement is as follows :

1 X 76mm SRGM
4 X 30mm CIWS
2 X RBU 6000
2 X Twin 533mm Torpedo Tube
16 X Brahmos Missile
32 X Barak 8 VLS and the ship carries 16 more Barak 8 as spare.

I think P K Sengupta is right, the ship may carry 48 Barak 8 missiles in total or upto 64.

This source verifies my claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Close-In Warfare System on INS Vikramaditya next yearWill have anti-missile defence system after three yearsAjay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

Goa, June 15
As euphoria over the newly inducted aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya settles down, it is the time for the Navy to equip the warship with two sets of weapons and missile systems.

INS Vikramaditya does not have the Close-In Warfare System (CIWS) and the long range missile firing capability that can pick out targets up to 100 km.

The CIWS is slated to be fitted in April-June 2015 at the Karwar naval base. Sources say the Navy is looking at two options, either the Israeli Barak or the Russian Shitil missiles.

The CIWS system is needed on board large warships as the last protection layer against incoming missiles as well as aircraft. It is like the ships own air-defence system. When deployed, a carrier does not float alone but moves around with a small flotilla of warships. The Navy is banking on ships in the flotilla for air defence support and also for long range missile firing. Some of the Indian warships carry the sea version of the 290 km range hypersonic missile (BrahMos). <<<< (Kolkata Class)

The Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAMs) can be fitted on the warship when it goes for its first re-fit after three years. Fitting the LR-SAM will be a complex procedure and it will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of eight-nine months has been factored in for this, sources said.

The LR-SAM, a joint venture between the Israel’s IAI and India’s DRDO, is still being tested. A series of tests are slated between November and March at the integrated test range, Orissa. The LR-SAM has been designated Barak-8 by the IAI. This can be housed in vertical launch units.

Each such unit will hold eight missiles. The warship could carry up to 32 or 48 LR-SAM’s <<<<< 4 X 8 + 16 extra rounds !

The Israeli company is working at the front section of the LR-SAM, including its seeker head that guides the missile and the warhead. The DRDO is working at the rear section - the rocket motor, the thrust vector control and fins that can be folded.

Meanwhile, the Navy has joined hands with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to set up a shore-based test facility to train pilots. At present, the Navy has around 10 qualified pilots.

MYSTERY SOLVED

The article itself states "The warship could carry up to 32 or 48 LR-SAM’s ", the "or" is the key point here, it does not provide any evidence or substantiation either way wrt the case of spare rounds for the LR-SAM being carried. All it states is that the ship could carry either of those two numbers wrt the LR-SAM, nothing more and nothing less, and as we have clearly seen from the ample photographic evidence, so far all we can say is that 32 LR-SAMs are present aboard in the VLU modules.

 

[Penguin]

Just remembered something.

This Defence Expo 2014 I spoke to an official who represented L&T. He said the complement is as follows :

1 X 76mm SRGM
4 X 30mm CIWS
2 X RBU 6000
2 X Twin 533mm Torpedo Tube
16 X Brahmos Missile
32 X Barak 8 VLS and the ship carries 16 more Barak 8 as spare.

I think P K Sengupta is right, the ship may carry 48 Barak 8 missiles in total or upto 64.

This source verifies my claim.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

Close-In Warfare System on INS Vikramaditya next yearWill have anti-missile defence system after three yearsAjay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

Goa, June 15
As euphoria over the newly inducted aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya settles down, it is the time for the Navy to equip the warship with two sets of weapons and missile systems.

INS Vikramaditya does not have the Close-In Warfare System (CIWS) and the long range missile firing capability that can pick out targets up to 100 km.

The CIWS is slated to be fitted in April-June 2015 at the Karwar naval base. Sources say the Navy is looking at two options, either the Israeli Barak or the Russian Shitil missiles.

The CIWS system is needed on board large warships as the last protection layer against incoming missiles as well as aircraft. It is like the ships own air-defence system. When deployed, a carrier does not float alone but moves around with a small flotilla of warships. The Navy is banking on ships in the flotilla for air defence support and also for long range missile firing. Some of the Indian warships carry the sea version of the 290 km range hypersonic missile (BrahMos). <<<< (Kolkata Class)

The Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAMs) can be fitted on the warship when it goes for its first re-fit after three years. Fitting the LR-SAM will be a complex procedure and it will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of eight-nine months has been factored in for this, sources said.

The LR-SAM, a joint venture between the Israel’s IAI and India’s DRDO, is still being tested. A series of tests are slated between November and March at the integrated test range, Orissa. The LR-SAM has been designated Barak-8 by the IAI. This can be housed in vertical launch units.

Each such unit will hold eight missiles. The warship could carry up to 32 or 48 LR-SAM’s <<<<< 4 X 8 + 16 extra rounds !

The Israeli company is working at the front section of the LR-SAM, including its seeker head that guides the missile and the warhead. The DRDO is working at the rear section - the rocket motor, the thrust vector control and fins that can be folded.

Meanwhile, the Navy has joined hands with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to set up a shore-based test facility to train pilots. At present, the Navy has around 10 qualified pilots.

MYSTERY SOLVED

Yeah?

Talwat Batch 2 INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand are explicitly mentioned as fitted with the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile (i.e. rather than Club). Shivalik apparently can use both Brahmos and Club. IMHO all ships with the Russian universal launcher can in principle fire Brahmos.

With IN, I get the impression that AAW is the primary task of the destroyers, while ASW that of the frigates and corvettes.

In the end of the article it says 32 or 48 barak 8 to be installed on 'the warship' (=INS Vikramadita), that is what the article says either 32 or 48 Barak 8 on VIkramaditya..

You also forgot to mention they have to carry ASROC that can kill submarines at sea.

CY-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That takes 16 more cells leaving 32 for SAM. HHQ 9/ HHQ 16 missiles will be placed in those and give area defence protection between 40 - 125 km depending on the missile. However both are absolutely useless against sea skimming supersonic cruise missile which is why China uses FN 3000N that is more like Barak 1.

Indian navy uses RBU 6000 that is short ranged but the UVLM for Brahmos can also accomodate Klub family.

L&T manufacture under license.

http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorp....aspx?res=P_HED_COFF_SBU_PROD&pid=1857&sbu=75

Uhn, no. CY-1 is boxed launched, like C802s.AFAIK there is no VL version of it in China's inventory.

 

[Penguin]

Bro got an interesting piece of news. Remember the space between Brahmos and barak 8 VLS? Thats where the canisters for Barak 8 are stored! The logic behind this is in a CBG replenshing facilities are at strain so the little mechanism, comes in handy.

Why there and not e.g. between the rear funnel and the rearVLU's? Where and how would the spare rounds be brought on deck? Using what means? How to lift them upright and move them over the VLUs? Or are you suggesting underdeck reloading? Mind you, the missiles are in canisters and the 8 canisters fit a RACK, or each fits a cell in a VLU, which is closed in the horizontal plane. THis is where a VLU differs from a single o twin rail launcher with a magazine.

THis is where a VLU differs from a single o twin rail launcher with a magazine.

The whole point of having a VLU is to eliminate all these moving parts, which are potential source of malfunction and take up space and weight that could be better spent on additional ordnance.

 

[Dillinger]

Where and how would te spare rounds be brought on deck? Using what means?
Or are you suggesting underdeck reloading? Mind you, the missiles are in canisters and the 8 canisters fit a RACK.

That's exactly the point, how in nine hells will such a reload be effected?

If the spare/extra LR-SAM rounds are stored below deck then how will they even be brought up above deck, seeing as there are no lifting cranes situated near the VLU.

Not to mention, once the round is on the main deck, how will it be lifted and then tucked into the open hatch of the VLU cell?

 

[Penguin]

What is it above the hel hanger ?(on both sides)

Think I found it!

KAVACH MOD-II CHAFF ROCKET LAUNCHER, likely LR-MR variant.

Ordnance Factory Board

TRISHUL: DEFEXPO 2014 Highlights-1........Enjoy Them!

 

[Penguin]

That's exactly the point, how in nine hells will such a reload be effected?

If the spare/extra LR-SAM rounds are stored below deck then how will they even be brought up above deck, seeing as there are no lifting cranes situated near the VLU.

Not to mention, once the round is on the main deck, how will it be lifted and then tucked into the open hatch of the VLU cell?

It defeats the whole purpose of having a VLU to begin with....

 

[spectribution]

It defeats the whole purpose of having a VLU to begin with....

So the official from L&T was lying? Really Penguin you are the only sensible think tank on PDF. He was working on the damn ship!

Infact I was very skeptical when he said that the ship had just got 32 missiles. I told him that this was very narrow minded on their part, given INS Delhi has 48 Shtil missiles and 32 Barak 1. He said that Barak 8 had the ability to stop a P 800 500 m away from ship and could engage targets at 70+ Km, thus doing both functions.

He also said that the ship carried another 16 rounds internally which could be loaded into the VLS, thus giving a total of 48 Barak 8 missiles carried on board. He said however it is done on long range operations as space is premium on the replenishment vessels.

Regarding INS Vikramaditya carrying 48 Barak 8 VLS is funny as it will carry a maximum of 16 Barak 8 LRSAM, Also spoke to officials from MDL who said that the INS Vikrant will carry 4 X AK 630 and 16 X Barak 8 as of now. Interestingly , it will carry the Elta 2258 STAR or the Indian AESA under development.

I asked Prasun the same question as to the spacing issue and this is what he replied :

To SPECTRIBUTION: Just look at the external space surrounding the VLS cells & compare that with how much volume is consumed internally by each VLS cell. That should give you the answer you seek. There’s an internal electro-hydraulic mechanism for uploading the LR-SAM’s missile-encasing cannisters.

And the issue of the FRVs carrying the 32 rounds

To GESSLER: Of course it is indeed possible to install such on-board cranes without reducing the complement of VLS missile-cells. FRVs that are primarily meant for transporting fuel cannot carry any explosive materials on-board due to obvious reasons. For reloading the LR-SAMs on P-15A DDGs, all that’s reqd is to take out the used cannisters with a crane. Only after this is done can the loaded cannisters be inserted into the VLS cells internall;y, not externally.

Yeah?

Talwat Batch 2 INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand are explicitly mentioned as fitted with the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile (i.e. rather than Club). Shivalik apparently can use both Brahmos and Club. IMHO all ships with the Russian universal launcher can in principle fire Brahmos.

With IN, I get the impression that AAW is the primary task of the destroyers, while ASW that of the frigates and corvettes.

In the end of the article it says 32 or 48 barak 8 to be installed on 'the warship' (=INS Vikramadita), that is what the article says either 32 or 48 Barak 8 on VIkramaditya..


Uhn, no. CY-1 is boxed launched, like C802s.AFAIK there is no VL version of it in China's inventory.

CY-5 is the vertically launched version of CY-4 with folding control surfaces to fit into VLS. The range is reported to be 30 km with Chinese and western light weight torpedo as payload, and presumably, the range would be decreased when larger and heavier Russian torpedo is used as payload. CY-5 is reportedly deployed onboard Type 052D destroyer.

 

[spectribution]

JACKPOT!

Barak

Quote:
The Rafael-made vertical launchers are each 2.55 m × 37.6 cm × 30 cm and weigh 110 kg with the efflux conducted from the bottom through two channels to the top of the launcher. The launchers may be distributed individually or clustered around the ship either above or below decks in a similar manner to Seasparrow (qv); each has two missile selection units. The manufacturers state that an above-deck Vertical Launch Unit (VLU) with eight missiles and weighing 1.7 tonnes will occupy a space of 1.8 m2 while a similar below-deck installation will occupy a volume of 4 m3.
(source: Jane's Naval Weapon Systems 2001)


VLS systems - request for information. - Defense Technology & Military Forum

This explains why an abnormal amount of empty space is left out! So not 48 Barak 8 but possibly 64 Barak 8!

 

[Gessler]

JACKPOT!

Barak

Quote:
The Rafael-made vertical launchers are each 2.55 m × 37.6 cm × 30 cm and weigh 110 kg with the efflux conducted from the bottom through two channels to the top of the launcher. The launchers may be distributed individually or clustered around the ship either above or below decks in a similar manner to Seasparrow (qv); each has two missile selection units. The manufacturers state that an above-deck Vertical Launch Unit (VLU) with eight missiles and weighing 1.7 tonnes will occupy a space of 1.8 m2 while a similar below-deck installation will occupy a volume of 4 m3.
(source: Jane's Naval Weapon Systems 2001)


VLS systems - request for information. - Defense Technology & Military Forum

This explains why an abnormal amount of empty space is left out! So not 48 Barak 8 but possibly 64 Barak 8!

The link is not working, but anyway given the date you have mentioned (2001), it is clear they are talking about the
short-range Barak-1 and not the much bigger & heavier Barak-8 (aka Barak-2).

Still, I would be the happiest bloke in town if Kolk ends up having 48 or 64 LRSAMs.

 

[spectribution]

The link is not working, but anyway given the date you have mentioned (2001), it is clear they are talking about the
short-range Barak-1 and not the much bigger & heavier Barak-8 (aka Barak-2).

Still, I would be the happiest bloke in town if Kolk ends up having 48 or 64 LRSAMs.

OK INS Kolkata maybe having 64 barak 8s, just got a mail from Ajai Shukla also regarding the same. He says :

32 VLS cells ready to fire and 32 missiles for reload

OK INS Kolkata maybe having 64 barak 8s, just got a mail from Ajai Shukla also regarding the same. He says :

32 VLS cells ready to fire and 32 missiles for reload

2 Defence Analysts saying the same thing cannot be lying right?

 

[Gessler]

OK INS Kolkata maybe having 64 barak 8s, just got a mail from Ajai Shukla also regarding the same. He says :

32 VLS cells ready to fire and 32 missiles for reload



2 Defence Analysts saying the same thing cannot be lying right?

I hope & pray they are correct. But I would love to see definitive evidence. I hope the Navy or MDL releases some official info.

 

[spectribution]

I hope & pray they are correct. But I would love to see definitive evidence. I hope the Navy or MDL releases some official info.

No official info but apart from the article, my talk with the official and the two experts we have nothing.

48 rounds is a done deal, 64 maybe.

Type 052D in operation can carry 32 SAM (HHQ 9/HHQ 16) only as 24 round FN 3000 is only good for intercepting mach 1.6 AShMs. Rest 32 cells are divided between ASROC CY 5 and YJ 18 AShM (Klub Missile).