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Era of wars over, ready to resolve all issues with India: Pakistan

And we will need such a timeline as well.

But then what do the two of us do till then - if we are talking a 2 decade timeline?

Looking at the now international reach and increasing sophistication of your terrorist elements, that goes beyond Afghanistan and Pakistan and India, do you think globally Pakistan has the luxury of that timeline?

The bad press you guys have been getting and the growing outcry internationally has been growing for close to 5 years now.

I do not think the world will sit aside and wait for you to clean up this problem for 20 more.

Not if they attack a major world city again.
 
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But then what do the two of us do till then - if we are talking a 2 decade timeline?

Looking at the now international reach and increasing sophistication of your terrorist elements, that goes beyond Afghanistan and Pakistan and India, do you think globally Pakistan has the luxury of that timeline?

The bad press you guys have been getting and the growing outcry internationally has been growing for close to 5 years now.

I do not think the world will sit aside and wait for you to clean up this problem for 20 more.

Not if they attack a major world city again.

Again.. we cannot prevent the worst until we are able enough.. and if we are to blamed and attacked.. we will face it head on.
That is for the world to understand..
The two must continue on the China-peace model.. slow and steady is the best way.
 
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And we will need such a timeline as well.




There are efforts to curb such elements.
but due to the fact that at some point.. for whatever strategic reasons.. these elements were part of state policy and ingrained in it.. they will not disappear overnight.
There are people in power who have a soft corner(and vested interests) with such elements.. and protect them from those that wish to eliminate them.. These elements are not just India centric.. and as you quite rightly pointed out.
Are used more to terrorise the local population into submission so that the interests of these few religious and quasi-religious nutjobs and by some to keep the power centre in illegal sections.

But as a policy.. by far and large it has been shunned.
It will take its time to translate down the ranks.. and one must give it that(and hope it succeeds).
The military is still a blunt tool.. it knows how to blow up...and eliminate threats in an area.
it does not know how to tackle the fallout entirely..
I cannot kill your brother who may be a terrorists and not expect you to retaliate.. other than that I kill you as well.
but then I have to kill your cousin.. and his brother..and so on.
There are people in government.. in parliament who have extremist links.. usually for political reasons..
but links nonetheless.. One may eliminate such men..but the breeding ground of vipers will just throw up another one.. and the cycle will go on.
the current focus must be on eliminating that breeding ground.. and tackling such "legal" vipers.
Its a long and tedious process.. with heavy odds stacked against those who are trying.
But the majority wishes for it.. and they will prevail.

Sir, you paint a nice picture but-unfortunatly, it does seem like fiction. As it looks like, if anything, the Jihadi situation is getting worse and worse year on year, I mean would anyone have contemplated a Pakistani group attacking a major naval base and destroying strategic (to Pakistan) assets or attacking the HQ of the PA or near weekly suicide bombings ten years ago? I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to the breeding ground, and in this case it is a refection on certain unsavory elements in Pakistani society that are radicalized beyond reproach. And this doesn't just show itself in the way of audacious jihadi attacks but across the society for instance the more radical and intolerant approach to minorities (Shahbaz Bhatti has to be a key example of this). I know for a fact that 40-50 years ago it just wasn't like this and this too is, somehow, reflected on Pakistani society abroad. Here in the UK for instance their is a worrying trend of radicalization among huge swathes of the Pakistani-origin Muslim community but the oddity is most of these guys are British-born. When women come over in the 1940s/50s from Pakistan they wore colourful saris and rarely covered their head, now in Muslim areas you see the vast majority of women wearing head to toe black in their Burkas with only slits for their eyes.
 
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Ha ha ha

After all those serious discussions, it is back to square one.

Indians (Abingdonboy, vsdoc, rockstar ) Do more, do more..look at us, we eradicated Punjab problem, done great damage to Kashmir insurgency...if there is a will there is a way with time line. We can have India-China relation but another Mumbai...all gone.

Pakistanis(Oscar, others) It takes time, need more time..dont know 2,5,20 yrs..meanwhile if anybody attacks coz of these non state actor's actions...we will retaliate head on...

The winner is - non state actors..

Best possible idea now - status quo
 
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Sir, you paint a nice picture but-unfortunatly, it does seem like fiction. As it looks like, if anything, the Jihadi situation is getting worse and worse year on year, I mean would anyone have contemplated a Pakistani group attacking a major naval base and destroying strategic (to Pakistan) assets or attacking the HQ of the PA or near weekly suicide bombings ten years ago? I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to the breeding ground, and in this case it is a refection on certain unsavory elements in Pakistani society that are radicalized beyond reproach. And this doesn't just show itself in the way of audacious jihadi attacks but across the society for instance the more radical and intolerant approach to minorities (Shahbaz Bhatti has to be a key example of this). I know for a fact that 40-50 years ago it just wasn't like this and this too is, somehow, reflected on Pakistani society abroad. Here in the UK for instance their is a worrying trend of radicalization among huge swathes of the Pakistani-origin Muslim community but the oddity is most of these guys are British-born. When women come over in the 1940s/50s from Pakistan they wore colourful saris and rarely covered their head, now in Muslim areas you see the vast majority of women wearing head to toe black in their Burkas with only slits for their eyes.

I paint an optimistic picture..
You seem to be understanding it as denial.
There is growing extremism.. and there is growing opposition to it as well.
Problem is.. bad news gets better press..
the good never makes the stage..
Pakistan has become the target of ire from the media.. and every second person with an english language fluency is writing.
Things are going from bad to worse.. if you are looking for admission to that then have it.
but to have us admit defeat in the face of such upheaval in our society.. I cannot grant that wish.
The storm is raging.. and you would wish me and other like me..who are out there.. and many.. to give up hope and capsize?
I dont think so.

I roam the streets of my nation.. and see more potential in it as compared to pessimistic views.
And as far as the radical thoughts have penetrated throughout Pakistani society..
The elements that reject them are always greater in number.
 
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Certainly war is a not a solution. In case of a war both side would loose. I welcome Pak PM statement
 
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I roam the streets of my nation.. and see more potential in it as compared to pessimistic views.
And as far as the radical thoughts have penetrated throughout Pakistani society..
The elements that reject them are always greater in number.

Great to know bro, but can you actually know the heart of your nation? Which streets you roam are also a function of who you are.

If you say that moderates are in the majority, and that the army is now moderate and non-radical and wishing to clean up its proxies, there is no reason it should take as long as you are saying.

Where are these people getting their money from? Stop it.

Where are these people getting their arms from? Stop it.

Where are these people hiding? Go after them.

Who are their leaders? Go after them. Isolate them. Neuter them.

Where does this radicalism grow if its not from the womb? Lock those places down. Throw away the keys.

Why does this radicalism grow? Remove the source. Make friends with us. Make friends with Afghanistan. Delienate the current boundaries as International boundaries. And lock them down. Then all you are left with are within your own soil with nowhere to run. To do with them as you please without any avenue of escape.

You talk of children and brothers and family. No one is asking you to kill them. But you have to kill those who need to be killed.

Did India stop when killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Did Sri Lanka stop from killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Right or wrong - it was done by the majority for the national interest.

IF as you say you guys are the majority - what is stopping you and why is it taking so long?
 
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Great to know bro, but can you actually know the heart of your nation? Which streets you roam are also a function of who you are.

If you say that moderates are in the majority, and that the army is now moderate and non-radical and wishing to clean up its proxies, there is no reason it should take as long as you are saying.

Where are these people getting their money from? Stop it.

Where are these people getting their arms from? Stop it.

Where are these people hiding? Go after them.

Who are their leaders? Go after them. Isolate them. Neuter them.

Where does this radicalism grow if its not from the womb? Lock those places down. Throw away the keys.

Why does this radicalism grow? Remove the source. Make friends with us. Make friends with Afghanistan. Delienate the current boundaries as International boundaries. And lock them down. Then all you are left with are within your own soil with nowhere to run. To do with them as you please without any avenue of escape.

You talk of children and brothers and family. No one is asking you to kill them. But you have to kill those who need to be killed.

Did India stop when killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Did Sri Lanka stop from killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Right or wrong - it was done by the majority for the national interest.

IF as you say you guys are the majority - what is stopping you and why is it taking so long?

No organization, no leadership.. no vision.
 
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All claims and no solid proof, how is it that India and USA(since you quoted them) both having spy satellites have yet to produce a single proof of any terrorist camp? Pictures? Thermal Images? Trails? Clearings? Anything? Either there aren't any camps, or these spy satellites are multi-million dollar flying paperweights!


Add: As for the FATA based camps, yes they did exist all over the place and are now limited to NWA, however, they do not meet your argument of being sponsored by the GoP or Army.

It does that :P

On an interesting note.. its weird that some Indians think that the entire Pakistan army is hell bent on war with India.
well, apart from the fact that they have been trained for that task.. it is laudable that there are many who vie for peace.
There is change in mindset reflected in the new breed of officers.. They are prepared for war.. but wish for peace.
That is what should be the focus of any professional military.. yet it is decried.


Agreed, I have been trained for the defence of Pakistan but I wish for peace more than most other people on this forum. I do my duty with full dedication but if given the choice, I would opt for peace. However, I feel the feeling is not mutual in most cases.

Al qaeda sent a video of a training camp in Pakistan once to America.....I'll try to find it on the net....



My focus was on Kashmir based camps which the OP claims that are sponsored by the GoP and Army. FATA based camps are a danger for Pakistan more than they are for India or anyone else.
 
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Sir, you paint a nice picture but-unfortunatly, it does seem like fiction. As it looks like, if anything, the Jihadi situation is getting worse and worse year on year, I mean would anyone have contemplated a Pakistani group attacking a major naval base and destroying strategic (to Pakistan) assets or attacking the HQ of the PA or near weekly suicide bombings ten years ago?

When you're fighting an insurgency, setbacks like this will occur. During the Sikh Insurgency, did India expect to lose it's PM to the insurgents? Then went Rajiv Gandhi, there were attacks on military positions in J&K. These brazen attacks are meant to dis heart rather than defeat, except for the Mehran Base attack which was very damaging in terms of losses to our defence capability. As for the GHQ attack, the attackers could not get past the second gate. The number of terrorists attacks in Pakistan is the lowest in the last 5 years. FATA is almost completely under control of the PA. I'd say we're in a better situation than we were half a decade ago.

I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to the breeding ground, and in this case it is a refection on certain unsavory elements in Pakistani society that are radicalized beyond reproach. And this doesn't just show itself in the way of audacious jihadi attacks but across the society for instance the more radical and intolerant approach to minorities (Shahbaz Bhatti has to be a key example of this). I know for a fact that 40-50 years ago it just wasn't like this and this too is, somehow, reflected on Pakistani society abroad. Here in the UK for instance their is a worrying trend of radicalization among huge swathes of the Pakistani-origin Muslim community but the oddity is most of these guys are British-born. When women come over in the 1940s/50s from Pakistan they wore colourful saris and rarely covered their head, now in Muslim areas you see the vast majority of women wearing head to toe black in their Burkas with only slits for their eyes.

Most of these people immigrated during the economic boom of the 80s, they still live with the illusion that the Taliban, being the successors of the Mujahideen are the heroes of Islam as they were made out to be during the 80s to facilitate recruitment for the war in Afghanistan. They have not suffered at their hands and thus still believe that they are role-models. The Pakistani community abroad is however, a poor indicator to judge the prevailing mindset in Pakistan. Yes, there are extremists, however, they do not represent Pakistan, it's policy, it's institutions or it's people.
 
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When you're fighting an insurgency, setbacks like this will occur. During the Sikh Insurgency, did India expect to lose it's PM to the insurgents? Then went Rajiv Gandhi, there were attacks on military positions in J&K. These brazen attacks are meant to dis heart rather than defeat, except for the Mehran Base attack which was very damaging in terms of losses to our defence capability. As for the GHQ attack, the attackers could not get past the second gate. The number of terrorists attacks in Pakistan is the lowest in the last 5 years. FATA is almost completely under control of the PA. I'd say we're in a better situation than we were half a decade ago.



Most of these people immigrated during the economic boom of the 80s, they still live with the illusion that the Taliban, being the successors of the Mujahideen are the heroes of Islam as they were made out to be during the 80s to facilitate recruitment for the war in Afghanistan. They have not suffered at their hands and thus still believe that they are role-models. The Pakistani community abroad is however, a poor indicator to judge the prevailing mindset in Pakistan. Yes, there are extremists, however, they do not represent Pakistan, it's policy, it's institutions or it's people.

I'm sorry what Indian PM was assainted by Sikh insurgents? Indira Gandhi was killed by her Sikh BGs in response to Op Bluestar- NOTHING to do with Khalistan.


And point taken irt ex-pat Pakistanis abroad, agreed not a very fair measure, but the fact is the murdering scum who killed Salmaan Taseer was showered in Rose petals outside court. Now tell me this isn't a worrying reflection on Pakistani society- a man who killed someone he was sworn to protect based on his religious beliefs is met with celebration from the wider community-sickening.
 
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If you say that moderates are in the majority, and that the army is now moderate and non-radical and wishing to clean up its proxies, there is no reason it should take as long as you are saying.

Insurgencies typically take over two decades to put down, this is the recurring pattern. The speed with which Pakistan has dealt with the TTP is extraordinary and I do not mean to be tooting my own horn here. Their back has been broken, but to put them to the grave will take time.

Where are these people getting their money from? Stop it.

Muslims abroad mostly, political parties and private donations from people and organizations.

Where are these people getting their arms from? Stop it.

Mostly the Afghan Black market, flourishing in Kunnar and Logar. Can't be put down unless the ISAF and ANA take control of these areas otherwise this will flourish, just to give you an idea, I got a Dragunov from Afg for 500k PKR and this includes the middleman's cut.

Where are these people hiding? Go after them.

Kunnar, Nooristan, Logar, not our mandate to enter Afghanistan.

Who are their leaders? Go after them. Isolate them. Neuter them.

Most of the Command Cadre is in disarray.
Baitullah Mehsud-Dead
Moulvi Faqir Muhammad-Exiled
Muslim Khan-Under Arrest

Among other local leaders that are either dead, incarcerated or hiding in Afg or NWA.



Where does this radicalism grow if its not from the womb? Lock those places down. Throw away the keys.

It used to be the norm, now it has become Taboo to support militancy, which shows that the mindset is changing.

Why does this radicalism grow? Remove the source. Make friends with us. Make friends with Afghanistan. Delienate the current boundaries as International boundaries. And lock them down. Then all you are left with are within your own soil with nowhere to run. To do with them as you please without any avenue of escape.

Radicalism grows because the radicals in hiding raise their heads at instances, however, like I said before, support for the TTP is now nearly non-existent. A PEW-Pak poll showed 97% people were against the TTP.

You talk of children and brothers and family. No one is asking you to kill them. But you have to kill those who need to be killed.

Without regret.

Did India stop when killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Nope.

Did Sri Lanka stop from killing their own when they needed to be killed?

Nope.

Right or wrong - it was done by the majority for the national interest.

Agreed, however, the concept of Ummah makes this a very difficult task. We do this, we lose support with our own people. Then Indians don't help much by flocking to terrorist forums and expressing support for the 'Persecuted Communities' whose people are missing. That doesn't help either.

IF as you say you guys are the majority - what is stopping you and why is it taking so long?

To kill a mortal takes seconds, to kill an ideology takes a generation. This insurgency will thrive in some form until about 20 years, as stated, this is the mean time for insurgencies to be successfully quelled. That's what my studies teach me.
 
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Thats a fairly cheap observation..
If we were all to observe affinities for where we came from..
Then Kashmiris may love the greeks.. Pathans someone else.. and so on.
I suggest you keep your racially motivated conclusions out of it.
I feel an affinity towards the development of Pakistan.. and peace with India ensures that.
You think peace with India means group hugs and the like... what I propose is curbing military spending towards India..and reducing the open enmity from there.


FYI.. My ancestory is traced back to the prophet.. and my ancestors settled in Kashmir...



What is more disappointing is the open racism displayed by Pakistani members.. sad..


I didn't know you would be so sensitive about this. Again you assume too much, as I have family that came from Jammu, Gurdaspur, and Jalandar, before partition. I also have family that that was in Pakistani side before partition as well.

You still have not convinced me how India is not a threat to Pakistan. All I hear is liberal idealism.

We should make peace because the Indian propaganda machine has been too successful in painting us in a certain color?

What does corruption within our government have anything to do with peace with India?

Have the Indians ever been fair with us? Whether it has been diplomacy, sporting events, entertainment industry, or media?

It's easy for you to label me a racist and full of jingoism, but has anything I have said been wrong?

On the other hand the likes of you will go advocate for peace, only to find out again and again that India does not want to be your friend. Jinnah knew that they would not treat us fairly, that's why we made this country in the first place.
 
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I'm sorry what Indian PM was assainted by Sikh insurgents? Indira Gandhi was killed by her Sikh BGs in response to Op Bluestar- NOTHING to do with Khalistan.

And that was? An act of insurgency! He obviously sided with the insurgent's agenda and by doing so he acted on their designs. I'd say he was an insurgent and a successful one!
 
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I didn't know you would be so sensitive about this. Again you assume too much, as I have family that came from Jammu, Gurdaspur, and Jalandar, before partition. I also have family that that was in Pakistani side before partition as well.

You still have not convinced me how India is not a threat to Pakistan. All I hear is liberal idealism.

We should make peace because the Indian propaganda machine has been too successful in painting us in a certain color?

What does corruption within our government have anything to do with peace with India?

Have the Indians ever been fair with us? Whether it has been diplomacy, sporting events, entertainment industry, or media?

It's easy for you to label me a racist and full of jingoism, but has anything I have said been wrong?

On the other hand the likes of you will go advocate for peace, only to find out again and again that India does not want to be your friend. Jinnah knew that they would not treat us fairly, that's why we made this country in the first place.
^Jinnah wanted India-Pak to live like US-Canada as well. nationalists are too myopic to see the benefits of normalization (on both sides)
 
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