Equality of man and woman in today's context

[ummarz]

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with Islam.
I am questioning whether the interpretation needs to be updated to modern setting.
As you know that a flowing water keeps it fresh, whereas a stagnant body of water starts to stink. Hence, with the flow of time, religious interpretation needs to also get updated.

With regards to your asking source, I agree that I do not have any authentic source but I am leaving to anyone's best judgement / common sense to what we see in today's times.

Keeping concubines / mistress is a thing of bygone era. Kings and high ranking ministers used to do so. Today, monarchy is almost non-existent. Where in non-muslim societies do you see people keeping concubines.

If you are saying that having 4 wives suppresses men's urge to have extra marital relations, do you have any proof of that? If one wife did not satisfy the man, what is the guarantee that 4 wives will?

I understand that most muslims are still in monogamous relationship and thats a good thing. However, the ones that are in polygamous relationship, what is the psychological and emotional impact on wives (I would say that these are semi-willing at best since they are financially dependent in most cases)? What is the impact on children in such a household? These children might grow up to assume that having multiple sexual partners is perfectly fine.

I think I have laid out all my arguments and I have nothing further to contribute on this topic. We can agree to disagree on this.

Thank you for participating in this discussion with me.

You are contradicting your self by suggesting that there is nothing wrong with Islam, but then saying that it needs to be changed. Well if there is nothing wrong with it, then it doesn't need to be changed.

Keeping mistresses is not a thing of the bygone era. I am sure you can search that up yourself if you really believe in that argument.

No where did I suggest that having 4 wives is enough to suppress a man urge. I didn't not even bring that up in discussion. My argument has nothing to do with what is able to suppress the mans urges. It simply states, that regulating polygamy with restrictions and allowing it under some circumstances has benefited society. And the results of an Islamic system can been seen in reduction of rape, prostitution and cervical cancer.

Thats your opinion when you generalize that most women in polygamous relationships are unhappy financially dependent and emotionally abused. I disagree with that, and instead believe that most women who enter into a polygamous relationship (esp non muslim), they do it when the man holds a substantially higher social status.

Bottom line in Islam, they are not being forced. They are open to join or leave as they please and they will still remain muslim. Where as the muslim man is being restricted to 4 and puts serious conditions on the modus operand. Which other religion puts such a restriction on men?

Why should Islam be reformed for restricting this. Where as the whole world can choose to be in a polygamous relationship if they desire. How will Islam stop non muslims from being in polygamous relationships or stop the men abusing women as mistresses. There is a whole culture and market for learning to become a mistress. Various documentaries on it are available on line.

Cheers

 

[magra]

You are contradicting your self by suggesting that there is nothing wrong with Islam, but then saying that it needs to be changed. Well if there is nothing wrong with it, then it doesn't need to be changed.

Keeping mistresses is not a thing of the bygone era. I am sure you can search that up yourself if you really believe in that argument.

No where did I suggest that having 4 wives is enough to suppress a man urge. I didn't not even bring that up in discussion. My argument has nothing to do with what is able to suppress the mans urges. It simply states, that regulating polygamy with restrictions and allowing it under some circumstances has benefited society. And the results of an Islamic system can been seen in reduction of rape, prostitution and cervical cancer.

Thats your opinion when you generalize that most women in polygamous relationships are unhappy financially dependent and emotionally abused. I disagree with that, and instead believe that most women who enter into a polygamous relationship (esp non muslim), they do it when the man holds a substantially higher social status.

Bottom line in Islam, they are not being forced. They are open to join or leave as they please and they will still remain muslim. Where as the muslim man is being restricted to 4 and puts serious conditions on the modus operand. Which other religion puts such a restriction on men?

Why should Islam be reformed for restricting this. Where as the whole world can choose to be in a polygamous relationship if they desire. How will Islam stop non muslims from being in polygamous relationships or stop the men abusing women as mistresses. There is a whole culture and market for learning to become a mistress. Various documentaries on it are available on line.

Cheers

You seem to assume that in today's age, polygamous marriages are widely allowed. That is not true. If we talk about the biggest religions - Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. I only see it being allowed in Islam.

Again, I am talking about modern age and not what used to happen in medieval times.

I really believe in my argument that keeping concubines is mostly a thing of bygone era. Apart from certain dictators and kings, where have you seen them today?

When I said that there is nothing wrong with Islam, what I meant was that the origin was well and good. However, I do feel that it needs to be updated to keep it relevant to modern times.

On women in a polygamous relationship being happy, I disagree with you, but that is fine if you have differing opinion.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

You want your safe space with all the liberals? Ahh so cute. Why do you hate Islam so much.

Reported for stalking and harassment and labeling me a terrorist.

i am more religious than you think, but you always think the Islam is only is Jihad, can you tell me are you praying 5 time a day and what is compulsory (fraiz) of shower in Islam??? what i harassed you lol i talking truth about you, you religious nutjob @Whitefalcon90 lol

 

[ummarz]

You seem to assume that in today's age, polygamous marriages are widely allowed. That is not true. If we talk about the biggest religions - Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. I only see it being allowed in Islam.

Again, I am talking about modern age and not what used to happen in medieval times.

I really believe in my argument that keeping concubines is mostly a thing of bygone era. Apart from certain dictators and kings, where have you seen them today?

When I said that there is nothing wrong with Islam, what I meant was that the origin was well and good. However, I do feel that it needs to be updated to keep it relevant to modern times.

On women in a polygamous relationship being happy, I disagree with you, but that is fine if you have differing opinion.

I said polygamous relationships, not marriages. This is an important distinction. Non muslim men of wealth can choose to keep mistresses/concubines without restriction and can treat them as they please, and leave them as the desire since they are powerful.

I am very surprised that you believe that concubines are a thing of the past.
Here is just one website which helps 'arrange' such relationships. https://www.seeking.com
These women know, that you are married, yet they choose to give you sexual favours for material support. Or a place to stay, and in return they will be available when ever you desire.

And its not just uber wealthy men. In this way, these men end up cheating on their wives. And in many super wealthy men, the wive may actually know of the cheating but they put up with it regardless. The top 1% of Americans is still millions of uber wealthy men. And I bet that the top 20% of men are able to afford to keep mistressess. You can do the numbers. There are YouTube channels which teach girls how to find sugar daddy. I won't post a link, but you can search it.

Islam on the other hand regulates these same class of men, and doesn't allow you to keep mistressess or concubines. Instead if you are able you must marry them, giving them a lot more rights and wealth than you would have to give to a mistress or a prostitute. And be limited in number as well. So a wealthy non muslim could have as many as he likes. Especially if he is not married, he could LEGALLY keep the concubines.

Chaning Islam will not affect these non muslim men of wealth. Prostitution will continue to be rampant, women will continue to look for sugar daddies and be at risk for being abused.

I am really surprised that you have a problem with something that enhances society, but don't have a lick to say about all the negatives of the alternative I have mentioned. Let me say this clearly. You are arguing a point that has no legs to stand on. In fact its the opposite lol.

You keep saying that Islam was good at one point but its not relevant today. First of all, it is very relevant today if its reducing rape, prostitution, exploitation of women, women trafficking. and the rate of cervical cancer.

Lets say for some ridiculous reason we ignore all that, and say it is not relevant today then if its not relevant today, women will then choose even less to be in a polygamous relationship. ITS A CHOICE! not an obligation. Its women's choice just as much as it is the mans choice. In fact, if no woman wants to with a particular man, no matter how hard he tries he can't have a polygamous relationship.

 

[Cash GK]

The earlier post where we were discussing whether a man and a woman are supposed to have equal rights got closed for replies before I could answer to people who wrote to me.

@jamahir @Cash GK @xeuss @HalfMoon @Goenitz @gulli @Indos @GHALIB @newb3e @UDAYCAMPUS

Happy to discuss here if you want.

Simple reason we men can not give birth to babies. Same as we can not have periods.
Women have long life as compare to men.
In human history there were more men leaders then ladies. Even today. I think there are two or three women world leaders .
Ladies are good cook at home but in restaurants you will mostly have men cooks.so what I mean to say Creater of this world has divided some duties between man n women. There is system we human must not challenge it. For example here in Europe girls get more freedom but they pay extra cost for that freedom. For example men are not ready to marry easily in Europe. You know why because most men in Europe do not want to take responsibility. Many poor women are raising kids along with the help of governments. And you al know how difficult is raising kids alone while you are working woman. In Muslim worlds men and women has divided duties. Man duties is earn and woman duties is look after kids as we all know our best investment is our kids. For example both husband n wife are working. Their kids will be raised by baby sitter. How you can trust your kids life with some random person . I have spoken many women in Europe they say if our man provide us bread and butter we will love to stay at home with kids. I mean end of the day it is up to people's personal choices

 

[HalfMoon]

Wives of Gods etc are part of mythology.
Anyways, we believe there is one God and all the different gods are just manifestations of the same one God.

Hinduism is ever changing. It constantly adapts to the contemporary time period and hence is never outdated.

So you are confessing that Hinduism is a myth and you keep changing it based on the opinion of the day. No wonder you pagans are one confused lot.

Islam does not, need not and will not change because it is based on the revelation of Allah (swt).

 

[magra]

I said polygamous relationships, not marriages. This is an important distinction. Non muslim men of wealth can choose to keep mistresses/concubines without restriction and can treat them as they please, and leave them as the desire since they are powerful.

I am very surprised that you believe that concubines are a thing of the past.
Here is just one website which helps 'arrange' such relationships. https://www.seeking.com
These women know, that you are married, yet they choose to give you sexual favours for material support. Or a place to stay, and in return they will be available when ever you desire.

And its not just uber wealthy men. In this way, these men end up cheating on their wives. And in many super wealthy men, the wive may actually know of the cheating but they put up with it regardless. The top 1% of Americans is still millions of uber wealthy men. And I bet that the top 20% of men are able to afford to keep mistressess. You can do the numbers. There are YouTube channels which teach girls how to find sugar daddy. I won't post a link, but you can search it.

Islam on the other hand regulates these same class of men, and doesn't allow you to keep mistressess or concubines. Instead if you are able you must marry them, giving them a lot more rights and wealth than you would have to give to a mistress or a prostitute. And be limited in number as well. So a wealthy non muslim could have as many as he likes. Especially if he is not married, he could LEGALLY keep the concubines.

Chaning Islam will not affect these non muslim men of wealth. Prostitution will continue to be rampant, women will continue to look for sugar daddies and be at risk for being abused.

I am really surprised that you have a problem with something that enhances society, but don't have a lick to say about all the negatives of the alternative I have mentioned. Let me say this clearly. You are arguing a point that has no legs to stand on. In fact its the opposite lol.

You keep saying that Islam was good at one point but its not relevant today. First of all, it is very relevant today if its reducing rape, prostitution, exploitation of women, women trafficking. and the rate of cervical cancer.

Lets say for some ridiculous reason we ignore all that, and say it is not relevant today then if its not relevant today, women will then choose even less to be in a polygamous relationship. ITS A CHOICE! not an obligation. Its women's choice just as much as it is the mans choice. In fact, if no woman wants to with a particular man, no matter how hard he tries he can't have a polygamous relationship.

Thank you for educating me on the subject of concubines. I was not aware that people try to find concubines in western societies when they can easily find prostitutes, and that they are organized sites to find concubines.

I wonder how Islam prevents men from seeking concubines. Lets say I am a super wealthy man and already have 4 wives. How will Islam stop me from seeking concubines ? Or lets say I am a wealthy man with one wife. I sought permission for 2nd wife but 1st wife denied. How will Islam stop me from seeking concubines now?

I mean end of the day it is up to people's personal choices

Exactly, it is upto everyone's personal choice. To have that personal choice, each person - a man or a woman - should have that right to make a choice for himself / herself.

If a woman does not want to remain a housewife and want to work outside, then that is her choice, is not it? She has the right to make that decision for herself, right?

So you are confessing that Hinduism is a myth and you keep changing it based on the opinion of the day. No wonder you pagans are one confused lot.

Islam does not, need not and will not change because it is based on the revelation of Allah (swt).

Every major religion has certain myths.
For example, how do you explain Jesus getting alive again after 3 days of being dead. Is it not a myth?

Hinduism is not solely dependent on what someone said or wrote thousands of years ago. Those words need to make sense in the present age and only then they would be followed.

 

[ummarz]

Thank you for educating me on the subject of concubines. I was not aware that people try to find concubines in western societies when they can easily find prostitutes, and that they are organized sites to find concubines.

I wonder how Islam prevents men from seeking concubines. Lets say I am a super wealthy man and already have 4 wives. How will Islam stop me from seeking concubines ? Or lets say I am a wealthy man with one wife. I sought permission for 2nd wife but 1st wife denied. How will Islam stop me from seeking concubines now?

You are most welcome.
I believe we have already discussed these topics enough. You can PM me about religious issues regarding Islam that you may have. I don't know, but I get this tension from you regarding Islam. I don't think we can talk religion on an open thread. So let me know, and I will put in an effort to explain to the best of my ability.

Cheers

 

[Adonis]

So you are confessing that Hinduism is a myth and you keep changing it based on the opinion of the day. No wonder you pagans are one confused lot.

Islam does not, need not and will not change because it is based on the revelation of Allah (swt).

Revelations of Allah has been comprehended by religious idiots (mullahs) to fulfil their agendas for centuries...Do you know what was actually and originally written to what we are told? Even the interpretation of Quraan is not same...thousands of sects interpret it the way they think it is right......Other religions evolved with time...and as a result...Christians, Jews, Hindus came out of the medievalist thinking and we are still there....

 

[GHALIB]

He is a hindutava troll and is pretending to be a muslim

Or Atleast that's what Indians on this forum are saying

He and Xeuss are indian Muslims , they are suffering from hindu phobia , it is because of BJP govt at the centre is in power without Muslim vote and support , since Muslims have lost VIP status in central govt that is why they are venting their frustrations on Pakistani forum . Once BJP is out of power such people will again start praising Ganga Jamuna tehzib .

Women can be a great asset during war. When Pakistan invades India, women should all gather and do farming work to provide food, dairy to the men in need, cook for the soldiers, take care of children , take care of the injured as nurses, doctors, etc... even back up the men in fighting. There you go, a war is solution to all of Pakistans problems.

Not bad

 

[Cash GK]

First of all, let me thank you for keeping an open mind about this topic.

Equal marriage is one such area where woman in certain religion (would not name it to avoid ban) has an inferior right.
In most polygamous households, the man is the primary earning member and his wives are dependent on him financially. Do you think the first wife has the courage in many cases to deny the husband his wish for a second wife when she is financially dependent on his husband. She might fear that saying no might provoke his husband to divorce her leaving her without any financial and soceital support.
This is where a govt law banning polygamy would have forced the husband to not raise such a question in the first place.

You raised a question from 2nd wife's perspective, whereas I am more worried of the rights of the 1st wife and her independent decision making to say NO to a 2nd wife.


I am not seriously advocating polyandry. I merely raised this point to highlight that if polyandry is supposedly such a taboo than why does society accept polygamy so readily. In a modern society, both should be seen in the same context.

In medieval times, there were lot of wars leading to a lot of widows and orphans. Then polygamy may have made sense. But it does not make sense in modern setting.

All your arguments regarding polygamy make sense in war time when there are a lot of widows who are financially insecure and need support. Do you feel that is the case today?

As explained in another post, a financially dependent 1st wife might be scared to deny a dominating husband his wish for a 2nd wife. Hence I feel polygamy gives an unjust power in the hands of the man to satisfy his lust.

You mentioned that since man is physically more powerful, it is easier for him to control 4 wives than vice versa. Now this can happen only if the man abuses his physical power to control his wives. In an ideal happy family, disputes between man and woman should be resolved through dialogue without resorting to physical fights. So I cannot agree that due to superior physical power, man should be allowed to satisfy his lust and a woman should meekly accept.

Simple question how many Muslim you have met in your life who have more then one wife.

 

[magra]

Simple question how many Muslim you have met in your life who have more then one wife.

In person, I have not met any such Muslim men yet. In India, it is very rare for Muslims to take multiple wives I guess.

 

[mwaraitch]

Gender equality will remain to be one of the topics for generations. No need to be too emotional about it. It's interesting. Women has played a 'follower type' role in history and aspire now to lead (which they are in many spheres). Equality is matter of the angle from which whole aspect is seen. In certain ways its there; however, if seen from other perspective, equality will never be there.

 

[Cash GK]

In person, I have not met any such Muslim men yet. In India, it is very rare for Muslims to take multiple wives I guess.

Now ask people here on defence.pk how many people have more then one wife..

 

[magra]

Now ask people here on defence.pk how many people have more then one wife..

I am not here to conduct a survey. Anyways such a question would not be appropriate to ask here.