Equality of man and woman in today's context

[Goenitz]

In medieval times, there were lot of wars leading to a lot of widows and orphans. Then polygamy may have made sense. But it does not make sense in modern setting.

It may still matter:
1. If there is war.
2. Unhealthy Boy/Girl ratio bcz parents prefer male child. Even they don't spend on girl education which can empower them.
3. Women have stronger immune system so their survival probability is anyway higher.
@ummarz Brother men and women are equal (=) but not equivalent (≡) (mathematically). For equivalency (identical to), a,b,c should be equal to x,y,z in all aspects.

 

[magra]

Huh! Did you watch the videos that I posted on the other thread? Watch this video and tell me who is forcing them

Change the law. Modi has been on a spree changing laws left and right. Why is not changing Hindu marriage act to support Hindu belief system?

Why should the Hindu marriage act be changed. It is good that the medieval practices of polygamy and polyandry has been banned.

Regarding the video you are showing, it is good if these women are not being forced. Similarly, no other women should be forced either. Like Taliban is forcing Afghan women to wear Hijab / Burqa.

 

[HalfMoon]

Why should the Hindu marriage act be changed. It is good that the medieval practices of polygamy and polyandry has been banned.

Regarding the video you are showing, it is good if these women are not being forced. Similarly, no other women should be forced either. Like Taliban is forcing Afghan women to wear Hijab / Burqa.

Were the wives of your Hindu gods weak or were pressurized to practice polygamy ?

Are you saying that your Hinduism religion is now out dated hence Hindu marriage act does not support Hindu beliefs any longer?

 

[magra]

It may still matter:
1. If there is war.

Casualty rates in modern times have reduced significantly. Also, many widows left behind are financially independent or get state pensions and do not need to be in a polygamous marriage.

2. Unhealthy Boy/Girl ratio bcz parents prefer male child. Even they don't spend on girl education which can empower them.

Preference for male child means that there are more men than women. This means that if each man marries one woman, we are left with excess men. How will polygamy solve this problem?

3. Women have stronger immune system so their survival probability is anyway higher.
@ummarz Brother men and women are equal (=) but not equivalent (≡) (mathematically). For equivalency (identical to), a,b,c should be equal to x,y,z in all aspects.

Women have stronger immunity, so they live longer. So lets say an average man lives till 70, an average woman lives till 75.
Do you mean to marry 72 years widows in polygamous marriages?

 

[Goenitz]

You mentioned that since man is physically more powerful, it is easier for him to control 4 wives than vice versa. Now this can happen only if the man abuses his physical power to control his wives. In an ideal happy family, disputes between man and woman should be resolved through dialogue without resorting to physical fights. So I cannot agree that due to superior physical power, man should be allowed to satisfy his lust and a woman should meekly accept.

You have to consider human are animal. There is a constant battle between rationality/consciousness and instinct. You need physical power to control human behaviour.

Even in educated society in UK, people break signals if there is no camera or police. The urgency and impatience override their consciousness. Apply that in India and Pakistan. If there is no fear of law (physical power) or penalty (fine, jail) people will not follow traffic signals. So, to keep majority in check, govt needs physical power (police, courts, etc).

So, a woman cannot have such powers. Even if she has, a man instinct can someday override his brain and he will fight to dominate (animal instinct). This will create family rifts, fight and divorces. So this system is bound to fail.

Also, many widows left behind are financially independent or get state pensions

Nope. Even rarer after the war. Economic devastation.

This means that if each man marries one woman, we are left with excess men

Think in preference terms. A family having 4-5 daughters to have a boy. This makes women disposable to a single man. (Don't include female child fratricide)

Women have stronger immunity, so they live longer. So lets say an average man lives till 70, an average woman lives till 75.
Do you mean to marry 72 years widows in polygamous marriages?

Why not. If a follower intention is to support the woman then why not. Arabs still marry very old widow women.

 

[magra]

Were the wives of your Hindu gods weak or were pressurized to practice polygamy ?

Are you saying that your Hinduism religion is now out dated hence Hindu marriage act does not support Hindu beliefs any longer?

Wives of Gods etc are part of mythology.
Anyways, we believe there is one God and all the different gods are just manifestations of the same one God.

Hinduism is ever changing. It constantly adapts to the contemporary time period and hence is never outdated.

 

[MilSpec]

since Area of a square is Pi R squared,

 

[magra]

You have to consider human are animal. There is a constant battle between rationality/consciousness and instinct. You need physical power to control human behaviour.

Even in educated society in UK, people break signals if there is no camera or police. The urgency and impatience override their consciousness. Apply that in India and Pakistan. If there is no fear of law (physical power) or penalty (fine, jail) people will not follow traffic signals. So, to keep majority in check, govt needs physical power (police, courts, etc).

Traffic laws are applied by govt and enforced by traffic police. If someone breaks the traffic law, a commoner cannot go and slap that fellow. Only a licensed police officer has the right.

Just having physical power does not give one right to use it. Hence there are laws to decide when, where and who can use that power.
Similarly, a man cannot lawfully use his physical power over his wife. If there is a dispute, either he is to resolve it through dialogue or take it to court.

In UK, a physically abusive husband can be jailed. You know that better than me.

Why not. If a follower intention is to support the woman then why not. Arabs still marry very old widow women.

What percentage of polygamous marriages involve 70 year old widows getting married. I would bet not more than 1%.
In most cases, polygamy laws are getting misused to satisfy man's lust.

So, a woman cannot have such powers. Even if she has, a man instinct can someday override his brain and he will fight to dominate (animal instinct). This will create family rifts, fight and divorces. So this system is bound to fail.

Christians and Hindus are not allowed polygamous (or polyandrous) marriages. In India, divorce rates are very low. So the system as you said has not failed.

 

[Goenitz]

Similarly, a man cannot lawfully use his physical power over his wife. If there is a dispute, either he is to resolve it through dialogue or take it to court.

Traffic signal was an example. The whole point was that human are generally kept in check by FORCE (not by conscious). Strict laws FORCE people to behave like a human.
So, my whole point was, a woman exercising polyandry need so much resources to FORCE men to behave/follow. It is against human instinct.
Such practice would definitely fail and result in more divorces, abandonment of children and burden on government.

In most cases, polygamy laws are getting misused to satisfy man's lust.

Every law can be abused or misused. The percentage is irrelevant.

 

[magra]

Traffic signal was an example. The whole point was that human are generally kept in check by FORCE (not by conscious). Strict laws FORCE people to behave like a human.
So, my whole point was, a woman exercising polyandry need so much resources to FORCE men to behave/follow. It is against human instinct.
Such practice would definitely fail and result in more divorces, abandonment of children and burden on government.

Every law can be abused or misused. The percentage is irrelevant.

As I explained, in a modern rational society, FORCE can only be applied via a law. It cannot be used by anyone who has power.
So this lawful society thus gives equal legal power to man and woman as it forbids the man from abusing his physical power.

So if superior physical power is legally taken away, it also takes away the justification of allowing polygamy but not polyandry. So either allow both or ideally ban both.

 

[ummarz]

First of all, let me thank you for keeping an open mind about this topic.

Equal marriage is one such area where woman in certain religion (would not name it to avoid ban) has an inferior right.
In most polygamous households, the man is the primary earning member and his wives are dependent on him financially. Do you think the first wife has the courage in many cases to deny the husband his wish for a second wife when she is financially dependent on his husband. She might fear that saying no might provoke his husband to divorce her leaving her without any financial and soceital support.
This is where a govt law banning polygamy would have forced the husband to not raise such a question in the first place.

You raised a question from 2nd wife's perspective, whereas I am more worried of the rights of the 1st wife and her independent decision making to say NO to a 2nd wife.

In the very specific situation you described, it is possible that the wife may feel intimidated to ask for divorce. That might be true in a society where women are not given equal job opportunities. However, that is just not the case these days. And if there are countries where women are not given equal opportunities, then that society needs reforms.

India is infringing on the rights of muslims to practice their faith freely. Muslims should be allowed to live by their own laws, and Hindus by their own.

Islam came and put a restriction on the number of wives one man could have. No more than 4. They have to be given equal time, love and assets. If the man can't do that kind of justice, than its best that he doesn't go for more than one. And of course, keeping in mind, that the 2nd wife has to decide to marry an already married guy. No body is forcing her. And Islam also gave the right of divorce to the first wife. There are plenty of men out there. No body is forcing her into a polygamous situation. She is free to leave and find someone else.

I am not seriously advocating polyandry. I merely raised this point to highlight that if polyandry is supposedly such a taboo than why does society accept polygamy so readily. In a modern society, both should be seen in the same context.

In medieval times, there were lot of wars leading to a lot of widows and orphans. Then polygamy may have made sense. But it does not make sense in modern setting.

You are right it is seen as a taboo, because that's how Humans have developed. People are free to choose here in the west, yet guys consistently choose not to become the second boyfriend. Similarly women continue to choose to marry an already married guy. And they have been for time before written history.

Similarly if there is a woman who thinks that she wants two husbands. She is free to leave Islam, and choose a different religion, or no religion at all. Whats the fuss? Why are you trying to force Islam to change, if you don't like it you don't have to practice it. Nobody's shoving it down the throat. You are free to choose your path in life. Its funny, you are like, hey I don't like this thing in Islam, hey that's your opinion, don't be a muslim. Simple.

Summary:
1- Islam didn't raise the number to four, it lowered and restricted it to four at a time in history where there was no limit.
2- Islam is the first give a right of divorce to woman
3- Its a right, no body is forcing anyone to stay in that situation.
4- 2nd wife chooses it, and so does the 1st
5- Its the woman's right if she decides to stay or not
6- Its the mans right if he wants somebody else or another
7- Man doesn't get a free for all, there are rules and laws, and its difficult to do justice to all, and he may not be able to have a 2nd wife if the first one leaves him, that way he only gets to have 1
8- Most Muslim women have no problem with this

Also important to remember that Islam has many rights just for women. For example, if a woman is earning her own, she is not required to share that wealth with her husband. Where as it is the mans responsibility that he must provide for her. Did you know that?

Islam is so well balanced out, in fact most western societies are perhaps more Islamic than some muslim countries. I would advise you to study Islam deeply, see the whole religion. Then you can compare it to all the other religions, and you can be the judge your self. Don't stick with the famous Islamophobic tropes, that really have no ground what so ever.

As for this issue, it is simply nature. How Humans are, women are ok with being in a group of concubines where as men don't.
You should really be asking the question to 2nd wife, why she doesn't have a problem?

 

[magra]

In the very specific situation you described, it is possible that the wife may feel intimidated to ask for divorce. That might be true in a society where women are not given equal job opportunities. However, that is just not the case these days. And if there are countries where women are not given equal opportunities, then that society needs reforms.

India is infringing on the rights of muslims to practice their faith freely. Muslims should be allowed to live by their own laws, and Hindus by their own.

Islam came and put a restriction on the number of wives one man could have. No more than 4. They have to be given equal time, love and assets. If the man can't do that kind of justice, than its best that he doesn't go for more than one. And of course, keeping in mind, that the 2nd wife has to decide to marry an already married guy. No body is forcing her. And Islam also gave the right of divorce to the first wife. There are plenty of men out there. No body is forcing her into a polygamous situation. She is free to leave and find someone else.


You are right it is seen as a taboo, because that's how Humans have developed. People are free to choose here in the west, yet guys consistently choose not to become the second boyfriend. Similarly women continue to choose to marry an already married guy. And they have been for time before written history.

Similarly if there is a woman who thinks that she wants two husbands. She is free to leave Islam, and choose a different religion, or no religion at all. Whats the fuss?

Summary:
1- Islam didn't raise the number to four, it lowered and restricted it to four at a time in history where there was no limit.
2- Islam is the first give a right of divorce to woman
3- Its a right, no body is forcing anyone to stay in that situation.
4- 2nd wife chooses it, and so does the 1st
5- Its the woman's right if she decides to stay or not
6- Its the mans right if he wants somebody else or another
7- Man doesn't get a free for all, there are rules and laws, and its difficult to do justice to all, and he may not be able to have a 2nd wife if the first one leaves him, that way he only gets to have 1
8- Most Muslim women have no problem with this

Also important to remember that Islam has many rights just for women. For example, if a woman is earning her own, she is not required to share that wealth with her husband. Where as it is the mans responsibility that he must provide for her. Did you know that?

Islam is so well balanced out, in fact most western societies are perhaps more Islamic than some muslim countries. I would advise you to study Islam deeply, see the whole religion. Then you can compare it to all the other religions, and you can be the judge your self. Don't stick with the famous Islamophobic tropes, that really have no ground what so ever.

As for this issue, it is simply nature. How Humans are, women are ok with being in a group of concubines where as men don't.
You should really be asking the question to 2nd wife, why she doesn't have a problem?

You seem to got touchy about Islam and started defending it.
I am not in the least criticizing it. I agree with you that Islam brought forth many good ideas eg. right to divorce (it was not present in India before Islam).

You may be right that Islam reduced the number of wives to 4 (from unlimited earlier). However, over the centuries, people have taken this '4 wives' to somehow interpret that they have a right to 4 wives.
You mention that a man has to equally provide and care for all 4 wives. But inside a home, who is going to monitor if the man is doing so. In most such polygamous househoulds, the wives are financially depedent on the man and would not readily come out and voice their displeasure.

You mentioned that India is infringing on Muslim rights. Can you care to elaborate on that?

 

[Goenitz]

So if superior physical power is legally taken away, it also takes away the justification of allowing polygamy but not polyandry

Nope. It will result in "Might is right". Men will defend their 'pride' and take as many 'resources' as they can.

So this lawful society thus gives equal legal power to man and woman as it forbids the man from abusing his physical power.

by FORCE means pressure (society, financial, psychological, emotional, mental, physical). It doesn't mean that man is arm twisting her wife to be a co-wife. So, the state law is not involved, yet.
My point is a man can easily exercise FORCE but a woman cannot. She needs additional support to practise polyandry.

 

[magra]

Nope. It will result in "Might is right". Men will defend their 'pride' and take as many 'resources' as they can.

So do you see that happening in UK? Are men defending their pride and taking away resources as they can?

by FORCE means pressure (society, financial, psychological, emotional, mental, physical). It doesn't mean that man is arm twisting her wife to be a co-wife. So, the state law is not involved, yet.
My point is a man can easily exercise FORCE but a woman cannot. She needs additional support to practise polyandry.

Other than physical power, what other power men have over women in a modern fair society. In a fair society, where women get equal opportunity, they have financial power. I would say women have higher pyschological power over men.

The crux is how would you justify allowing polygamy in a developed society. If a man wants to take care of widows (who are financially insecure), he can provide financial support without resorting to taking the woman in his household.

Also, are you saying polygamy is only being done where subsequent wives are widows? As I see it, Arab sheikhs misuse polygamy to marry teenage girls. How that is justified.

 

[ummarz]

You seem to got touchy about Islam and started defending it.
I am not in the least criticizing it. I agree with you that Islam brought forth many good ideas eg. right to divorce (it was not present in India before Islam).

You may be right that Islam reduced the number of wives to 4 (from unlimited earlier). However, over the centuries, people have taken this '4 wives' to somehow interpret that they have a right to 4 wives.
You mention that a man has to equally provide and care for all 4 wives. But inside a home, who is going to monitor if the man is doing so. In most such polygamous househoulds, the wives are financially depedent on the man and would not readily come out and voice their displeasure.

You mentioned that India is infringing on Muslim rights. Can you care to elaborate on that?

Why are you trying to force a change of a religion, and in particular this point of discussion has no legs to stand on. If you don't like Islam, nobody is forcing you into it. Let it be the peoples choice, don't infringe on the rights of others just because you can't understand it.

You started the discussion with talking about "certain religion", now you have changed that to muslims "peoples...". Which is it? Islam or people who claim to be muslim?

Islam says, men can have no more than 4 wives, but the men will have to do justice between them all. Allah is the judge, if the man can't do justice, he will have to pay for his sins. If the wives are unhappy with this injustice, they are free to leave. Just like any other marriage. You keep talking about a specific situation where a woman is financially dependent on the man and would be afraid to come out and voice her concerns. This situation shouldn't apply today, since there are many financial opportunities out there. But lets say a situation like that does arise, then it wouldn't matter if she is muslim or not, in a polygamous situation or not. A non muslim financially dependent woman would be afraid to voice her concerns regardless of her religion. Has nothing to do with Islam.

India can start by allowing muslims to freely eat what they wish. Starting with beef.