Entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet to arrive by 2019

[axisofevil]

I love u man,exactly my views.

Its a complete failure of hal and drdo combine to absorb anything meaningful in 6 decades.

And still u will see fanboys parroting their names.half of these experts don't even live in india to know how these public companies work.

They work at barely 50-60 pc of their actual capacity and performance of hal/drdo is a testament to that.

If not then we indians are really stupid bunch of people which I don't think is the case.
So pick ur choice

That's an invalid view. Blaming DRDO and HAL scientists is wrong and incorrect. The bad work culture and ethics starts form the top down. It has gotten much better but there is room for improvement. Then you got the issue of senior scientists who practice caste politics and stupid cultural practices that hinder a cohesive environment for development. ON top of that you have corrupt burecrats and military officials who have a preference for foreign goods and purposely sideline our defence capabilities or changed the criteria for what they wanted. Add that to a tech dencial regime that crippled our industry. Its complicated.


NOW Ask yourself how come this CONgress never resolved the Adarsh scam or brought back black money? Who are they trying to protect? We will never move forward with great speed in defence related rsearch because corruption is sapping our strength. Sure, folks will argue that there is corruption all over the world and it is. But in succeessful countries, nobody allows corruption to hinder their defence. PERIOD>

 

[he-man]

dude the problem is very simple.
as pointed out by me earlier,its called reservation,50 pc of the people working at these cos should not be there in the first place.

no offence to my obc/sc,st brothers but there should be no reservation in institutes like hal,drdo and isro.

and if u think that 50 pc reservation is not an issue,well then keep on ignoring the fundamental problem.

 

[JayAtl]

Well Chinese are master of reverse engineering so why blame Russia for that? Blame India for no knowledge in reverse engineering if you have to than Russians.

err breaking international law is not the way to go. this is the reason why every country is happy to sell its defense and no defense tech products to India and not to china. cheating and hacking is not the reputation you want.

 

[Dillinger]

err breaking international law is not the way to go. this is the reason why every country is happy to sell its defense and no defense tech products to India and not to china. cheating and hacking is not the reputation you want.

Most of Europe was happy selling to China even as it reverse engineered the procured weapons in "public view" till Tienanmen happened. Where do you think they got the "HOTS" missiles and guidance tech for korshun CM knockoffs from?

That having been said reverse engineering is about as difficult as developing a product, just because you happen to have a certain platform/product at hand doesn't mean that you know how to fabricate all of its components down to the often carefully safeguarded materials (no not that sort of safeguarded) which are required for said fabrication.

India on the other hand has different issues as far as defence production and its MIC are concerned. So for us, yes, trying to "copy" procured equipment doesn't make much sense regardless of its legality.

 

[JayAtl]

Most of Europe was happy selling to China even as it reverse engineered the procured weapons in "public view" till Tienanmen happened. Where do you think they got the "HOTS" missiles and guidance tech for korshun CM knockoffs from?

That having been said reverse engineering is about as difficult as developing a product, just because you happen to have a certain platform/product at hand doesn't mean that you know how to fabricate all of its components down to the often carefully safeguarded materials (no not that sort of safeguarded) which are required for said fabrication.

India on the other hand has different issues as far as defence production and its MIC are concerned. So for us, yes, trying to "copy" procured equipment doesn't make much sense regardless of its legality.

why do you think that if india built is own missiles, the chinese could not without reverse engineering ? countries are bothered about more advanced technology products and that is why they don't sell to china. even the russians got ticked off at one point and started being careful . show me a developed country with good repute that does not respect intellectual property?

 

[Dillinger]

why do you think that if india built is own missiles, the chinese could not without reverse engineering ? countries are bothered about more advanced technology products and that is why they don't sell to china. even the russians got ticked off at one point and started being careful . show me a developed country with good repute that does not respect intellectual property?

Sure they can build things on their own, they've built far more than we have. The problem is that most people conceive reverse engineering to be limited to say duplicating a sukhoi down to the nuts and bolts, that's not the case. A country's indigenous missile program for example can benefit and be sped up if certain crucial dual use technologies are in said countries reach to duplicate, similarly a country's missile program can be relatively delayed if OEMs of the dual use technologies are told by their parent governments to desist from selling said components to the targeted country. The latter happened with us, for the better part of a decade and more we were on the black list of all crucial tech fabricating OEMs in the US, the US attempted to scuttle the sale of cryogenic engines to the ISRO fearing that certain metallurgical expertise might be gleaned from said engines and be passed off to the DRDO.

Everyone gets ticked off, back in the late 70s it was beneficial for the US to turn a blind eye to China as it frantically replicated anything it could get its hands on since the Chinese had happily consented to needling the Soviets and throwing a spanner in the evil communist plans whenever they could. Tomorrow India might find itself again being black-listed, its just geo-politics and profit.

Tech denial has often had nothing to do with reverse engineering or threats there off, when the US was busy ensuring that no allied country would pass on any technologies related to refining crude to Libya it wasn't because Qaddafi would fashion a nuke out of it all.

 

[JayAtl]

Sure they can build things on their own, they've built far more than we have. The problem is that most people conceive reverse engineering to be limited to say duplicating a sukhoi down to the nuts and bolts, that's not the case. A country's indigenous missile program for example can benefit and be sped up if certain crucial dual use technologies are in said countries reach to duplicate, similarly a country's missile program can be relatively delayed if OEMs of the dual use technologies are told by their parent governments to desist from selling said components to the targeted country. The latter happened with us, for the better part of a decade and more we were on the black list of all crucial tech fabricating OEMs in the US, the US attempted to scuttle the sale of cryogenic engines to the ISRO fearing that certain metallurgical expertise might be gleaned from said engines and be passed off to the DRDO.

Everyone gets ticked off, back in the late 70s it was beneficial for the US to turn a blind eye to China as it frantically replicated anything it could get its hands on since the Chinese had happily consented to needling the Soviets and throwing a spanner in the evil communist plans whenever they could. Tomorrow India might find itself again being black-listed, its just geo-politics and profit.

no doubt reverse engineering is not an easy feat. but being a pariah nation for doing has avoided china from doing so on aircraft engines as an example i.e. somethings are a bridge too far...then it is not just reverse engineering by industrial espionage that helps China achieve the reverse engineering too. Btw a lot of it has also do with affordability, just because you can reverse engineer does not mean you have the infrastructure in place to do so.

 

[Dillinger]

no doubt reverse engineering is not an easy feat. but being a pariah nation for doing has avoided china from doing so on aircraft engines as an example i.e. somethings are a bridge too far...then it is not just reverse engineering by industrial espionage that helps Chian achieve the reverse engineering too

Has it occurred to you that China ran its own cost benefit analysis and decided it was worth it, to earn umbrage but at the end of the day be able to enhance its own MIC significantly?

 

[Archie]

why would it take 5 yrs for HAL to deliver the remaining 70 jets
cant they increase the production rate from 15 to 20
the more late HAL, is in delivery, the more time, IAF will have to fly the Mig21/27s which the Sukhoi is replacing

 

[IND151]

The "modernized" flanker's specs have been frozen, it will be head and shoulders above the current 35 and 35BM in terms of avionics and self protection while keeping pace with them in terms of the FCR unless the MoD/IAF suddenly deviate from the mission plan wrt MKI). Obviously any airframe changes cannot be made so differences will remain. As such the MKI, if it is put through the upgrade program without the usual battery of last minute jitters and procrastination, will be the finest endurance heavy SEAD/DEAD and stand off strike platform in the neighborhood- till someone comes up with a "5th generation" platform that can carry heavy stand-off munitions in an appreciable quantity.

@jaiind @IND151 As for the Russians milking us, no, the price escalations were factored in the original contract which had set down guidelines and conditions for any follow-on contracts. The Russians provided a reasonable time period within which we could opt for more MKIs without any or considerable escalation in cost per plane, we did not exercise that option within said period and so we must pay more (disregarding the cost increases due to any upgrade in specs). Ergo blame anyone but the Russians on this.

I already showed this in post number 4.

That is a lot of wastage in raw material. Or specifically poor manufacturing process that needs that large block of titanium to be used to create such a component. If anything, the titanium falling off could be collected through a system to be melted again and reformed into a block that could be reused for another component.

That is good idea, but probably it is not possible; otherwise HAL would have opted for such system.

As often discussed...

...IAF don't want overdependance on Russia, that's why they want indigenous or western alternatives to the MKI and FGFA
...Flankers (no matter which once) are heavy class fighters, Rafale is medium class
...after the upgrade the MKI will be at least as capable if not more (depending on customer requirements), since a lot of the changes will be the same. We already know that Samtel is offering bigger MFDs for the upgrade, similar to what the Su 35 gets, we know that DARE hase developed a new EWS, which includes UV MAWS, LWR and new jammers (most likely at the same wingtip pods that the Su 35 or other Flanker uses), we know that a high focus will be placed on the addition of RAM coatings, to reduce the RCS, while it's doubtful that IAF will remove the canards for benefits in this area, like the Russians did. We also know that the long term aim is, to replace Russian weapons with indigenous once, R27 and 77 with Astra, KAB bombs with Sudarshan, Kh 31 with an own ARM..., Brahmos will only be one addition to the list, that also is mainly aimed on our requirements.

So except of the engine, there is nothing a Su 35 will offer to IAF, that the upgraded MKI won't have, it will be in the wrong class to be an alternative to Rafale and most importantly, is not what IAF wants! Only Russian media, Sukhoi officials that are desperately looking for exports of the fighter and forumers are talking about it wrt India.

Any update on Air Launched Article?

 

[sudhir007]

 

[JayAtl]

Has it occurred to you that China ran its own cost benefit analysis and decided it was worth it, to earn umbrage but at the end of the day be able to enhance its own MIC significantly?

that is to be seen. It is too early to determine the benefits of having US surround you...and consider you a military threat

 

[Dillinger]

that is to be seen. It is too early to determine the benefits of having US surround you...and consider you a military threat

Lets be honest. At the moment the Pacific pivot is not exactly bristling with might and sharp knives. Furthermore, down the line, there is a high chance that any heightened activity in the IOR by the US or its allies will be viewed with a less than charitable gaze by India itself.

If the US genuinely wishes to settle the issues at least in the SCS then they need to shift their focus to truly empowering the Japanese and Vietnamese.

 

[he-man]

Lets be honest. At the moment the Pacific pivot is not exactly bristling with might and sharp knives. Furthermore, down the line, there is a high chance that any heightened activity in the IOR by the US or its allies will be viewed with a less than charitable gaze by India itself.

If the US genuinely wishes to settle the issues at least in the SCS then they need to shift their focus to truly empowering the Japanese and Vietnamese.

Chinese rise is inevitable whether usa likes it or not.

And dynamics are seriously gonna change if russia-china-india axis gains any traction in the form of brics which is a very real possibility.

And especially when russia is desperate after ukraine fallout.we seriously need an alternative to dollar and imf

 

[JayAtl]

Lets be honest. At the moment the Pacific pivot is not exactly bristling with might and sharp knives. Furthermore, down the line, there is a high chance that any heightened activity in the IOR by the US or its allies will be viewed with a less than charitable gaze by India itself.

If the US genuinely wishes to settle the issues at least in the SCS then they need to shift their focus to truly empowering the Japanese and Vietnamese.

I am being honest in that the benefit of attracting American military to view and surround the chinese is not what I would consider beneficial. We dont have to come into india's territorial waters in IOR as evident . and we are very much making moves in SCS. Calling their claimed airspace as bollocks and flying through it without notifying is not an unfocused plan. and we Japan is under NATO coverage , vietnam is another thing...