Eid Day Mystery 2014 (why really?)

[Irfan Baloch]

Is it 28th of July on Monday or 29th of July on Tuesday (or none of these days?)

what are the political reasons for uncertainty
what are the sectarian reasons for uncertainty
what are the astronomical reasons for uncertainty
what are the mathematical reasons for uncertainty

is this mystery deliberate? is the uncertainty born out of Shia /Sunni/ Wahabi animosity? if a Mullah announces it on one day then the Ayatullah be damned if he doesnt choose the other day? and some will still ignore both days and celebrate with Saudi Arabia?

what are the roots about the story that the uncertainty is born out of superstition? (more on superstition later)

are the roots of the mystery from Saudi Arabia (if so how long)
are the roots of the mystery from Pakistan (if so how long)
are the roots of the mystery from Hindustan during Mugal empire?

Superstition
that if Eid fell on Friday then two sermons would be bad omen for the emperor?
or was it just to prevent people for gathering too long during the political turmoil so that the clerics might not use the gathering as a march against the king?


Muslim mathematicians like the Aztecs, Greeks, Romans etc predicted 1000 years worth of Islamic calenders, they plotted the star charts and so forth yet their work was never used to decide Eid Al Fitr? why there is no such confusion for the grand Eid al Bakr then? there is only one Huj day ?


I invite all to comment
Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Ahmedis, Ismailis, Hindus, Jews, Budists, Christians, Sikhs, Atheists, Satanists, Humanists (and all those that I didnt mention ) all welcome to give their point of view (but not Takfiris because they will be busy blowing Muslims up on last Friday & Eid day or justifying these murders)


Just one request please
please do so without any prejudice and hatred. keep your comments civil & academic.

@WebMaster @Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @Fulcrum15 @Manticore @Chak Bamu @Oscar @dexter@Abu Naser @Akheilos @@RFS_Br@Desert Fox @DESERT FIGHTER @@Barakah @@Zarvan@@HunterKiller@Slav Defence @@waz @@RAMPAGE @Developereo @Patriots @@American Pakistani @hasnain0099 @BDforever @TeesraIndiotHunter @Multani @kobiraaz @AUz@KingMamba @Pakistani shaheens @pehgaam e mohabbat @Syrian Lion @TheFlyingPretzel @MrShabi2010 @omega supremme @hasnain0099@Pakistanisage @Aslan @Abu Zolfiqar @@Hasbara Buster @RaptorRX707 @Kaan @Devil Soul @HRK @Peaceful Civilian @Leader @Tihamah @Shahrukh Saleem Qureshi @UKBengali
@illusion8 @sandy_3126 @VCheng

 

[Dubious]

In my opinion its coz of sectarian pride! Its the habit of remaining divided!

Kissi andhay Mullah/ Ayatollah ko agar chaand nai nazar aya tou Eid hi nai hai! Even if someone on a mountain (KPK) region saw it they refuse to accept it based on their blind pride...Literally just coz they didnt see the moon or couldnt "find" it...So instead of being ashamed that the common man saw it that they didnt ...they will die in pride and go with gunnah (by asking everyone to fast on Eid day) but will not eat up their pride and agree with another party!

if a Mullah announces it on one day then the Ayatullah be damned if he doesnt choose the other day? and some will still ignore both days and celebrate with Saudi Arabia?

As for celebrating with Saudi Arabia is a little ridiculous esp if you have your own council I can understand if British Muslims want to follow Saudi or Scandinavian but even they have some small council!

 

[forcetrip]

Is it 28th of July on Monday or 29th of July on Tuesday (or none of these days?)

what are the political reasons for uncertainty
what are the sectarian reasons for uncertainty
what are the astronomical reasons for uncertainty
what are the mathematical reasons for uncertainty

is this mystery deliberate? is the uncertainty born out of Shia /Sunni/ Wahabi animosity? if a Mullah announces it on one day then the Ayatullah be damned if he doesnt choose the other day? and some will still ignore both days and celebrate with Saudi Arabia?

what are the roots about the story that the uncertainty is born out of superstition? (more on superstition later)

are the roots of the mystery from Saudi Arabia (if so how long)
are the roots of the mystery from Pakistan (if so how long)
are the roots of the mystery from Hindustan during Mugal empire?

Superstition
that if Eid fell on Friday then two sermons would be bad omen for the emperor?
or was it just to prevent people for gathering too long during the political turmoil so that the clerics might not use the gathering as a march against the king?


Muslim mathematicians like the Aztecs, Greeks, Romans etc predicted 1000 years worth of Islamic calenders, they plotted the star charts and so forth yet their work was never used to decide Eid Al Fitr? why there is no such confusion for the grand Eid al Bakr then? there is only one Huj day ?


I invite all to comment
Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Ahmedis, Ismailis, Hindus, Jews, Budists, Christians, Sikhs, Atheists, Satanists, Humanists (and all those that I didnt mention ) all welcome to give their point of view (but not Takfiris because they will be busy blowing Muslims up on last Friday & Eid day or justifying these murders)


Just one request please
please do so without any prejudice and hatred. keep your comments civil & academic.

@WebMaster @Aeronaut @Jungibaaz @Fulcrum15 @Manticore @Chak Bamu @Oscar @dexter@Abu Naser @Akheilos @@RFS_Br@Desert Fox @DESERT FIGHTER @@Barakah @@Zarvan@@HunterKiller@Slav Defence @@waz @@RAMPAGE @Developereo @Patriots @@American Pakistani @hasnain0099 @BDforever @TeesraIndiotHunter @Multani @kobiraaz @AUz@KingMamba @Pakistani shaheens @pehgaam e mohabbat @Syrian Lion @TheFlyingPretzel @MrShabi2010 @omega supremme @hasnain0099@Pakistanisage @Aslan @Abu Zolfiqar @@Hasbara Buster @RaptorRX707 @Kaan @Devil Soul @HRK @Peaceful Civilian @Leader @Tihamah @Shahrukh Saleem Qureshi @UKBengali
@illusion8 @sandy_3126 @VCheng

I would like to know one time in the history of Pakistan that any other sect celebrated eid on different days. We can not talk salafi, they are more muslim than muslim.

 

[Dubious]

any other sect celebrated eid on different days.

Apparently Peshawar always has a different Eid....

Dont know who Salafi are in Pakistan...

Half of Pakistan celebrates on 1 day and another half on another day!

 

[Leader]

General Ayub and Nawaz manipulated eid day as some cohen told them 30th ramadan would be a bad omen for their rule,

so grandparent told me that police forced people into masjids for Eid prayers..the situation was like one house was celebrating Eid, the next was Fasting.. most controversial... then Nawaz did the same, announced moon sighted and declared Eid as late as 11:30 pm. (correction: friday Eid as bad omen for ruler)

as per sects, if my shia friend agrees to break fast with sunni tiime, its his choice, if he doesnt then I wait a little longer and curse him during time kay kaminay teri waja say ham yeh samosay, pakoray nai kha pa rahe...and then those 6-8 minutes passes and we continue with our pleasant time

and I also tend to agree Roza Punjabi kay sath, Eid Pathan kay sath

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Apparently Peshawar always has a different Eid....

Dont know who Salafi are in Pakistan...

Half of Pakistan celebrates on 1 day and another half on another day!

salafi are the refined name for wahabis which is a derogatory word in their opinion
we have up to 3 eids .. Peshawar always has one day earlier and then its a divide among shia and sunni clerics. although Rohat Halal committee has Clerics from all faiths (that are not declared kafir yet) but anyone of them can walk out and refuse to accept the majority.

they have a party on top of Saudi-Pak towers in islamabad.

I would like to know one time in the history of Pakistan that any other sect celebrated eid on different days. We can not talk salafi, they are more muslim than muslim.

if we start on different days then its a given .
I only remember in childhood that we had same days of eid but not lately.
how was it last year? I dont remember because i was in UK and we had 3 or 4 different days

 

[SQ8]

IMHO, the calculations that evolved over the years were based on the canonical understanding that sighting of the moon was paramount to the declaration of Eid. However, that was based on the best available refernce point for keeping track of days which was the moon. Now, as times evolved and Muslims spread... Caliphates would use fast riders to inform the centre if the moon was sighted along the border of the Caliphate. Hence, one can take an example of earlier( and less tainted) methods was to declare eid wherever the moon was sighted throughout the state.

From what I heard the Bohri people have a different system. Based on research carried out within the Safavid empire, which compiled a comprehensive map of moon phases and dates accordingly they have an exact idea of what phase the moon would be at what time. Today, with science where it is I see little use for the manual sighting system. Astronomers should be able to give the exact phase of the moon at any given date and the Islamic calender can be aligned with it.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

IMHO, the calculations that evolved over the years were based on the canonical understanding that sighting of the moon was paramount to the declaration of Eid. However, that was based on the best available refernce point for keeping track of days which was the moon. Now, as times evolved and Muslims spread... Caliphates would use fast riders to inform the centre if the moon was sighted along the border of the Caliphate. Hence, one can take an example of earlier( and less tainted) methods was to declare eid wherever the moon was sighted throughout the state.

From what I heard the Bohri people have a different system. Based on research carried out within the Safavid empire, which compiled a comprehensive map of moon phases and dates accordingly they have an exact idea of what phase the moon would be at what time. Today, with science where it is I see little use for the manual sighting system. Astronomers should be able to give the exact phase of the moon at any given date and the Islamic calender can be aligned with it.

thats one great post you took us through the timeline of Islamic history regarding the sightings.

my understanding is that two things prevent us from getting a unanimous verdict.

• apparently some Clerics insist that "real" sighting is ONLY when the moon is visible with Naked eye and they discourage and dismiss any use of equipment.
• 
  
• even if some do approve use of telescopes, they wont accept it if its hidden behind clouds and would dismiss the aid of say satellites and astronomers that can predict/ confirm that its practically the new moon.

sometimes when they fail to "spot" the moon, next evening you can clearly see its a 2nd or even 3rd day moon which far more thicker than the typical hairline moon we are expected to see for few minutes until it disappears.


I see some political reasons, if it were not superstitions of Moghal emperors or the Abbasid Caliphs ..political because normally any Muslim leader during the time of strife saw big gatherings as a potential danger to his power.. so such paranoia magnified when such gathering happened twice in a day

 

[Chak Bamu]

Cross posting from another similar thread:

The crescent moon is one of the most beautiful celestial sights created by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

There are at least five different perspectives:

1. Local - You sight crescent moon, you declare Eid (or beginning of any lunar month), else complete 30 days. This is how it was for many centuries, before means of near-instant communication.

2. National - Moon sighting is done on the national level. If Moon is sighted anywhere in a nation, Eid is declared. If moon is sighted in Gwadar, people of Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi, AJK, all celebrate Eid. This interpretation is based on Nation-state model and is rather recent.

3. Regional - Moon sighting in a region (comprising of more than one country) gets Eid declared. This happens in North America by some people.

4. Saudi - If moon is sighted in Saudi Arabis, wallha 7abibi, it is 3id. Many people around the world, including Afghanistan just sign off their responsibility to Saudis, who seem to know what they are doing, even when they really do not have a clue like the rest of us.

5. Scientific - Everyone knows how and when moon will be sighted and what parameters are to be put in the calculations. Just print a calendar and be done with it. Turkey (I am told) follows this model.

Masjid Qasim Khan people are following #1 & #4 and are not willing to quit their 2 minutes of fame every year. It makes them important in a very negative way to the rest of the nation.

There is a joke. People name one of their kid "Chand". When asked if they have seen 'Chand', they say that they have seen "Chand" today. Simple.

There is another perspective that I have not included in the list above: The Global perspective. Whenever Moon is supposed to be sighted anywhere, that should be the first day of Lunar calendar the world over. To me this is the simplest and most logical, and also with support from Hadith as far as I know TBH. But that would be too much to ask.

The circus that goes on in Masjid Qasim Khan is getting more and more elaborate as time passes, just because they crave authentication. I've heard that they have begun transporting would-be Moon-sighters to Masjid Qasim Khan and interview them there.

I am all for #2 for now, since we have a valid and institutional mechanism via Rooiat-e-Halal committee. Even if they may be mistaken, they take enough care that I trust them.

My guess is that, if one were to take an empty glass and go around asking people if it was full of water, some people out of millions might actually say that "Yes the glass is full of water". There you have it.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Every x, y, z claim that he has seen chand bibi and there should be EId and start cursing halal commite that they are blind, incompetent and munafiq etc etc

People should follow committee blindly ..even if they make mistake(intentionally or unintentionally) then they will be responsible in front of Allah because they were given the authority and responsibility by state/government.

 

[rockstar08]

In my opinion its coz of sectarian pride! Its the habit of remaining divided!

Kissi andhay Mullah/ Ayatollah ko agar chaand nai nazar aya tou Eid hi nai hai! Even if someone on a mountain (KPK) region saw it they refuse to accept it based on their blind pride...Literally just coz they didnt see the moon or couldnt "find" it...So instead of being ashamed that the common man saw it that they didnt ...they will die in pride and go with gunnah (by asking everyone to fast on Eid day) but will not eat up their pride and agree with another party!



As for celebrating with Saudi Arabia is a little ridiculous esp if you have your own council I can understand if British Muslims want to follow Saudi or Scandinavian but even they have some small council!

101% agree with this

 

[Dubious]

Every x, y, z claim that he has seen chand bibi and there should be EId and start cursing halal commite that they are blind, incompetent and munafiq etc etc

People should follow committee blindly ..even if they make mistake(intentionally or unintentionally) then they will be responsible in front of Allah because they were given the authority and responsibility by state/government.

but if the committee itself is not very reliable!

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

but if the committee itself is not very reliable!

Halal committee is as reliable as those x, y, z who claim to witness the chand..we should not question the reliability of comitte appointed by Islamic government for moon sighting purpose ..as i s aid even if they are wrong or make mistake intentionally then you will not be punished for their or governemnt mistakes..just like we will not be punished if imam make mistake intentionally in his namaz ..

 

[VCheng]

I invite all to comment
Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Ahmedis, Ismailis, Hindus, Jews, Budists, Christians, Sikhs, Atheists, Satanists, Humanists (and all those that I didnt mention ) all welcome to give their point of view (but not Takfiris because they will be busy blowing Muslims up on last Friday & Eid day or justifying these murders)

I would love to share my thoughts, but I generally do not like to participate in religious threads, and foresee this becoming one soon. There is nothing wrong with celebrating Eid on either of the days, but religious issues only inflame the ignorant.

Eid was celebrated here today.

Eid Mubarik!

 

[Dubious]

we should not question the reliability of comitte appointed by Islamic government for moon sighting purpose

We have every right to question...Islam never said be a blind follower!

as i s aid even if they are wrong or make mistake intentionally then you will not be punished for their or governemnt mistakes..just like we will not be punished if imam make mistake intentionally in his namaz ..

Look if you saw the moon....and still follow such committee then??
Mind you the committee is also in Peshawar woh bhi koi molvi hain....

Plus everyone knows how the stupid committee is! And how they give a blind eye to 1000 things wrong!!!